strapless erging

zenpharaohs · Post by **zenpharaohs** » May 10th, 2006, 1:24 pm

I've been trying strapless rowing a bit. The problem I have with strapless rowing is that at 20 spm (as I've read about here) is that a reasonably full effort "jumps" me about 6 to 8 inches off the footboard, even if I increase the drag factor all the way. I have no problem with holding the form with feet out of contact with the board, but it seems silly. I can row like this for some kilometers. But it seems wrong somehow.

The other question I have is more theoretical. One thing I have been doing is to accelerate the last bit of the recovery using my hamstrings against the straps. This loads the quads for a stretch reflex response and should increase the leg drive. I'm short and stout with short limbs. My main training focus at the moment is on endurance squatting, and rowing the erg is more of cross training. But I am interested in what the thinking is about the role of the hamstrings in rowing. (Are they just there to process lactate?)

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » May 10th, 2006, 2:50 pm

The hamstrings straighten the legs from the hip joint.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » May 10th, 2006, 2:59 pm

zenpharaohs wrote:I've been trying strapless rowing a bit. The problem I have with strapless rowing is that at 20 spm (as I've read about here) is that a reasonably full effort "jumps" me about 6 to 8 inches off the footboard, even if I increase the drag factor all the way. I have no problem with holding the form with feet out of contact with the board, but it seems silly. I can row like this for some kilometers. But it seems wrong somehow.

This doesn't have to do with Drag factor it has to do with your ability to stay connected and in proper sequence to the finish.
Legs, torso, shoulders, elbows and hands.
By the time your hands reach your body your backward momentum should be completely arrested, then it's just a matter of reversing the sequence (in ratio) back to the catch.

zenpharaohs wrote: The other question I have is more theoretical. One thing I have been doing is to accelerate the last bit of the recovery using my hamstrings against the straps. This loads the quads for a stretch reflex response and should increase the leg drive. I'm short and stout with short limbs. My main training focus at the moment is on endurance squatting, and rowing the erg is more of cross training. But I am interested in what the thinking is about the role of the hamstrings in rowing. (Are they just there to process lactate?)

Yes, the hamstrings are used in rowing, but mroe for opening the torso by pivoting at the hips rather than the interesting plyometric application you are describing.

What is "endurance squatting"?

zenpharaohs · Post by **zenpharaohs** » May 10th, 2006, 3:24 pm

John Rupp wrote:The hamstrings straighten the legs from the hip joint.

On the drive, hamstring can assist the glutes in doing that. In my case, the glutes do the vast bulk of that work. More or less the same story for me in things like traditional deadlifts for hamstrings, (Romanian, etc). Those tend to not hit my hamstrings at all. The only weight lifting exercises that effectively hit my hamstrings are ones that use the hamstrings as knee flexors because my glutes overpower them for hip extension. I've worked hard to improve my hamstrings for the past months, but I am very quad and glute dominant.

So I guess I'm asking about flexing the knees on the recovery. In knee flexion, I have a lot more power available in the hamstring than the hip flexor. There is no question that with the hamstring, you can load the stretch reflex response of the quadriceps. It seems impossible to do that with the hip flexors; and the hip flexors seem to also be responsible for controlling the angle of the back during recovery. But with no straps, there is no way to get much pre-load on the quadriceps.

Sean Seamus · Post by **Sean Seamus** » May 10th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Hamstrings cross the hip joint AND knee joint, so can do more than just extend the hip joint.

In one of Xeno's DVD's he refers to the hamstring's role in drawing the body forward during recovery. He is a STRONG advocate of sitting tall, up on the ischial tuberosities (sit bones), and in this position the hamstrings can do this.

zenpharaohs · Post by **zenpharaohs** » May 10th, 2006, 4:19 pm

PaulS wrote:
zenpharaohs wrote:I've been trying strapless rowing a bit. The problem I have with strapless rowing is that at 20 spm (as I've read about here) is that a reasonably full effort "jumps" me about 6 to 8 inches off the footboard, even if I increase the drag factor all the way. I have no problem with holding the form with feet out of contact with the board, but it seems silly. I can row like this for some kilometers. But it seems wrong somehow.
This doesn't have to do with Drag factor it has to do with your ability to stay connected and in proper sequence to the finish.
Legs, torso, shoulders, elbows and hands.
By the time your hands reach your body your backward momentum should be completely arrested, then it's just a matter of reversing the sequence (in ratio) back to the catch.

I'm pretty short. And somewhat short of limb in proportion. So I have this quite thick powerful legs with short bones. It doesn't extend me very far up the slide to go from legs completely (and I mean completely) folded to legs completely unfolded. So my leg drive is over in a very short distance. Because my bones are short, I have a big leverage advantage compared to tall people. A big reach disadvantage. So if I kick hard, my backward momentum is not exhausted by the time my hands reach my body (remember the arms are short too) unless I exaggerate the rockover a whole lot more than feels good. I have the glutes to do that back extension, but the abs and hip flexors to do that many situps, which is what that would amount to? No, I don't have that. We're talking on the order of 1000 strokes for 10km, and that is a lot of situps.

Given that I don't use a huge layback, I have no problem with the body control and being in sequence. I've done torso body control sports for most of my life. My form, as far as I have been able to tell by looking at reflections and watching my shadow, etc., looks OK. I have a lot of control over it. I think it just comes down to I have a really short stroke unless I really lay back a long way.

PaulS wrote:
Yes, the hamstrings are used in rowing, but mroe for opening the torso by pivoting at the hips rather than the interesting plyometric application you are describing.

What is "endurance squatting"?

Endurance squatting might help explain where I'm coming from. You load weight on a barbell, and then you see how many repetitions you can squat before you can't do another. It goes from pure strength through strength endurance to more or less pure endurance depending on how much weight you use. Currently my sets are 42 repetitions at 225# and 81 repetitions at 135#. 42x225# took about three minutes - so it's not purely anerobic like power lifting. I'm working on the 225# weight with a goal of 60 repetitions. When we set that goal, we thought that 60 was as many as anyone had done at that weight, but we found out there is one guy who did 75 repetitions at 300# (yikes). I can do a lot more at 135# than 81 but we aren't working on that now. We think the (unofficial) record for 135# is 148 repetitions. In any case, the current goal is 60 x 225#. I didn't know if I could ever do it, but now that I got 42 I'm getting pretty confident that maybe even this year I will do it.

There are other variations, such as how many repetitions can you do in a time limit. I haven't done that seriously, but in training I've done consecutive sets of 20 x 185# separated by three minutes of fast jump rope for an hour (it's like intervals except that one interval is hard for strength endurance and the other interval is hard for cardio).

I expect to be under the bar for about four minutes to get 60, and my heart rate will be over 180 for about half of that. So 1k or 2k rowing seems a reasonably similar cross training event from an aerobic point of view. I'm thinking in terms of how the techniques are similar and different. Keeping the torso in a good position in rowing has proved much easier than under a heavy barbell. But the shoulder work in rowing is more than the shoulder work in squatting (which is mainly about stabilization as opposed to motion).

The one thing that is not obvious here is that although in squatting, you are assisted on the way down (the weight of a 225# barbell is a LOT more assistance in folding you up than the shock cord on the C2) you recover some of this energy in the stretch reflex response. This is why if I go at too slow a pace, I will end up with about 30 repetitions instead of 40. Those 10 extra repetitions are a lot of energy that would otherwise be lost. So I'm all for taking it slow after the end of the drive, I'm not sure I am in agreement with staying slow all the way until the catch. Maybe this is just an idea that doesn't translate from squatting to rowing. I don't know. But it's not a small effect in squatting.

zenpharaohs · Post by **zenpharaohs** » May 10th, 2006, 4:28 pm

Sean Seamus wrote:Hamstrings cross the hip joint AND knee joint, so can do more than just extend the hip joint.

In one of Xeno's DVD's he refers to the hamstring's role in drawing the body forward during recovery. He is a STRONG advocate of sitting tall, up on the ischial tuberosities (sit bones), and in this position the hamstrings can do this.

As I have found in my pretty limited experience I agree with this. I sit as tall as possible to get a long lever from my back - my back, core, and hips are plenty strong and this position uses that strength well. And in straps I do use the hamstrings to draw myself forward.

Without the straps it seems to leave the hamstrings with a lot less to do though.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » May 10th, 2006, 5:55 pm

You would not be able to stand up without action from the hamstrings, much less do a dead lift.

The hamstrings extend the hip joint and flex the knees.

The quads extend the knees and flex the hip joint.

You need both sets of muscles to stand up, walk, run, row, do deadlifts, cycle and so on.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » May 10th, 2006, 5:59 pm

Ya know what, I'm going to make a particular recomendation for your circumstances. You might very well like the effect you get when you raise the rear foot fo the Erg by placing it on some sort of stable platform (you will have to experiment with this at your own risk). This will have a couple interesting effects for you. It will help to keep you on the foot stretchers, add resistance on your drive (though not reflected on the PM), and help you to return to the catch postition without having to do it at high speed to get compression.

Cheers.

zenpharaohs · Post by **zenpharaohs** » May 10th, 2006, 10:24 pm

PaulS wrote:You might very well like the effect you get when you raise the rear foot fo the Erg by placing it on some sort of stable platform (you will have to experiment with this at your own risk). This will have a couple interesting effects for you. It will help to keep you on the foot stretchers, add resistance on your drive (though not reflected on the PM), and help you to return to the catch postition without having to do it at high speed to get compression.

And interesting idea. I should have thought of that. I think I have stuff that would be ok for some elevation.

davidm · Post by **davidm** » May 11th, 2006, 10:37 am

when rowing strapless, i find that my feet (mostly my toes) still come off the footboard. i find that i still have alot of momentum from pulling w/ my back and arms. if i don't pull much w/ my arms, my feet stay down. i've heard that my feet should stay flat on the footboard, but should this be at the expense of gaining power from pulling w/ my arms?

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » May 11th, 2006, 1:41 pm

davidm wrote:when rowing strapless, i find that my feet (mostly my toes) still come off the footboard. i find that i still have alot of momentum from pulling w/ my back and arms. if i don't pull much w/ my arms, my feet stay down. i've heard that my feet should stay flat on the footboard, but should this be at the expense of gaining power from pulling w/ my arms?

Hi David,

I see this quite bit with my rowers and it seems to be more a matter of being able to relax the lower leg at the finish. The extension of the ankle is a reflex to falling backwards, and even slight layback is "falling backwards" as interpretted by our body and brain. There are a number of "reflexes" that must be somewaht suppressed in rowing, especially when in a boat with waves moving the hull around. Many think that the waves tip the boat, but they only move the hull up and down and a bit side to side, it's our reaction to those motions that end up disturbing the set.

Be careful that the pulling with your arms is not throwing you off balance at the finish, as that's not really additional power since it's moving your body, not the flywheel.

todd · Post by **todd** » May 11th, 2006, 7:15 pm

I've been skeptical on the whole strapless rowing thing and the 10 mps but I gave it a shot today. I was able to adjust so I wouldn't fly off the erg fairly quickly and even seemed to sustain a strong pace (for me) for a longer period of time. The down side was that after a while, my legs started feeling a little rubbery and soon, the backs of my upper legs were screaming. I was going to do an hour but quit at 8k because of the discomfort. Obviously I've been using a different set of muscles (it seems like I was using the muscles on the front of my upper legs much more)which hasn't allowed my times to improve. Now I get to start over with new sore muscles for a few days. Hopefully though, I will be able to get past the discomfort and be able to do it longer and improve my times.

BTW: my stroke rate was much lower than what I usually do. Today it was roughly 22-25 where I'm ususally 27+. Also my heart rate stayed considerably lower which obviously meant I felt less winded when I got off.

Bob S. · Post by **Bob S.** » May 11th, 2006, 10:33 pm

todd wrote:I've been skeptical on the whole strapless rowing thing and the 10 mps but I gave it a shot today. I was able to adjust so I wouldn't fly off the erg fairly quickly and even seemed to sustain a strong pace (for me) for a longer period of time. The down side was that after a while, my legs started feeling a little rubbery and soon, the backs of my upper legs were screaming. I was going to do an hour but quit at 8k because of the discomfort. Obviously I've been using a different set of muscles (it seems like I was using the muscles on the front of my upper legs much more)which hasn't allowed my times to improve. Now I get to start over with new sore muscles for a few days. Hopefully though, I will be able to get past the discomfort and be able to do it longer and improve my times.

BTW: my stroke rate was much lower than what I usually do. Today it was roughly 22-25 where I'm ususally 27+. Also my heart rate stayed considerably lower which obviously meant I felt less winded when I got off.

These are interesting observations, but now I am curious as to how your pace compared. Both the lower stroke rate and heart beat seem to imply that you were going at a lower pace as well, but you did not state this specifically. If you did do it at the same pace, it would be a strong argument in favor of strapless rowing.

I just started erging strapless recently and found no difficulty whatsoever. In fact, it is sort of neat to just put my feet on the stretcher and not have to bother with the strap. It is even neater to just step off at the end of a piece. I haven't tried anything over 25 spm yet, so that might be a problem.

Bob S.

nfeht · Post by **nfeht** » May 11th, 2006, 10:49 pm

if you row with your feet out of the staps try to keep pressure on your toes. this causes you to stay connected throughout the stroke. if you do it consistantly you will get used to it and long pieces will be relatively the same no matter if your feet are in or out. my best 60min and 90 min times are both with my feet unstraped and with the damper setting at a 1