Assessment of RowPro V2.0 and new race system technology

[FrankJ]

I received this email from Pete Loeffen the President of Digital Rowing which is a very good assessment of the current state of RowPro V2.0 and his plans for a new online racing system in the near future.

I'm sorry it has taken some time to answer your questions.

Yes, it's clear now that we have introduced some problems in RowPro version 2. Here's an update on what we're doing about these problems:

- Daylight saving: We had an issue with a 1-hour offset in the race server when Daylight saving started in the US last week. This is now fixed.

- GMT: When you set the start time of a scheduled race in RowPro 2.000, the GMT start time is incorrect, but if you create the scheduled race on the Oarbits website it works correctly. We have fixed this problem in RowPro 2.001, which we expect to release in the coming 2-3 weeks. We may be able to "correct" the RowPro 2.000 GMT error by making a change on the race server. If this is possible, we should be able to do it in the next week, and this will enable people to create scheduled races with the correct GMT using RowPro 2.000. In the meantime, all scheduled races need to be created using the Oarbits website.

- Freezing on screen: There is a bug where packets are sometimes not being transmitted over the network while you are racing. This leads to a number of issues similar to what you described. We have seen this bug in the lab and have done some work to find a solution, but we're not there yet. We will do some more work on this, and if we can find and fix it in time for the release of 2.001, we'll put the fix in that.

- 1.8 compatibility: There was an issue with people graying out at the start in 1.8, which is fixed in version 2. If people with 1.8 join a race with other people who have version 2, the 1.8 people may gray out at the start. This is a catch-22, because upgrading to 2.0 will fix the graying out problem but will introduce the version 2 problems. Because of this, it's not realistic for us to say people should upgrade from 1.8 to 2.000. However once 2.001 is released, if we have managed to fix the packet transmission issue, then our advice will be to upgrade from 1.8 to 2.001.

- e-Row: In principle the race system still works with e-Row, however we are not testing as much with e-Row now so it's possible there are some issues with e-Row.

Stepping back from all this, we all know the main reason for this ongoing series of small but intrusive issues is that the race system is designed for compatibility with e-Row, and this means there are some fundamental issues that we cannot resolve in the current race system. Because of this, we are now building a new race system. We know everyone wants this new race system, so we have stopped patching up the old system and are now concentrating all our effort on making the new one as quickly as possible. The one exception to this is the packet transmission issue I described above, which we will try to fix.

We are aiming to have the new race system ready around June / July this year. There's a lot to do, so these dates are just an estimate at present. Some key points about the new race system are:

- The plan is to release the new race system in RowPro version 2.005.

- The new race system will use a different network protocol. This means it will only work with RowPro 2.005 and later. It will not work with e-Row at all, and it will not work with RowPro versions earlier than 2.005.

- Soon after we release the new race system and we know it's stable, we will close the old race system, so anyone who wants to continue racing will need to upgrade to RowPro 2.005 or later. This is because it's not practical to split the racing community in two, and also because racing between the old system and the new system will not be possible. This will be a major step forward for the race system and for everyone using it.

Please feel free to forward this email to other RowPro users. I'd welcome your feedback about all this.

Also, if there are any other issues besides the ones discussed above that your really really want us to look at in the current race system, please let me know and we'll consider whether it's better to look at them or to wait for the new race system.

Pete
Digital Rowing

Now is the time to be heard so post away.

Frank

[FrankJ]

I'll start with a couple of issues that I'd like to see addressed. The first is that I've been in a few races lately where the race creator for whatever reason dropped out of a race or was somehow disconnected from the race (a bug maybe?) and was no longer race master. This means that the second person in the race moves up to race master. When the second person is a no-show there goes the race.

What I'd like to see happen is that when the race creator rejoins the race the race creator moves to the top of the list and becomes race master again.

My second issue is that I would like to see a handicap system built into the race server. So we could all just enter PBs or SBs when we enter the race and the server would handle the individual start delays by giving each racer there own start signal. I wouldn't necessarily expect his to be in the new system on day one but consideration for it should be included in the design so it will be easy to do when it is ready to implement.

Frank

[chgoss]

I had a problem this afternoon, in detail:
- win2K laptop, 5.00.2195 SP4, 1.2Ghz, 768Mb RAM, running behind a linksys wireless (I was physically connected however.) Cable modem ~250Mb


- I scheduled a race using RowPro (eval version)
controlCenter->internet->session studio
- the race showed up in the session list, everything looked good so far
- 2 people signed on, total was now 3
- I wont go into the problems with the GMT, assume you know all about this
- as race time approached, I attempted to get the party started
sessionSetup->internet
but, my race didnt show up, got some kind of error "no sessions for me to join"
- as I saw other sessions for me to join, I figured it was a problem with my eval copy, so I bought the SW, and created a race on Oarabits.. but had the same problem, my race didnt show up in the sessionSetup.. No matter what I did, no race that I created as master would show up in the sessionSetup.. I assume I ended up leaving my 2 potential partners high and dry..


Couple other items:
- Race Master should be able to delete a race, not just edit it
- as race master, I was unable to edit the race and change the distance successfully (which I had erroneously created as a 2K when it should have been a 10K)
- I get "unhandled exceptions" all over the place
- the chat sessions should only get broadcast to the members of a particular race. I kept getting cross talk...



All in all though, I am in SW development myself, so I know how difficult it is to do this type of thing. I want to encourage you guys & gals to stick with it as I am really looking forward to my first online race!!
Quick Race seems to work great..

If you are looking for a beta tester, or more info on this post, email me at ch_goss@hotmail.com

[rowan]

Thanks for posting the info, Frank.

I'm glad they're going to start afresh on the racing protocol; if the problems are being caused by trying to be backwards compatible, rather get everyone up to current spec and let's all move forward.

I'm skeptical, though.
Do the people at Digital Rowing actually use RowPro very often? Seems to me there are so many little bugs and hiccups that are always cropping up that if the designers actually used the thing, they would do things a little differently.

Consider the GMT bug. Pete seems to say that if you schedule a session through the Oarbits website there is no problem. But the session still gets displayed an hour early in Rowpro, and all the problems remain except that you can see the correct time on Oarbits.
Also, I think Michael said that this GMT bug happens regularly, and seems to take them by surprise each time.

One of my strongest impressions of ver 2 was that the background scenery hadn't changed. I thought they would change it a little, it would have been good to have something new to look at.
Broadcast camera I'm not really a fan of...the camera moves around too much and I feel I can't get into a groove.

Anyway, I'm a committed fan and have purchased RP ver 1 and ver2, and I'll buy any future releases as well to support the effort.

Rowan

[FrankJ]

Hi chgoss,

I'm going to take a shot at answering a couple of your issues or at least suggest a way to gather more data.

I had a problem this afternoon, in detail:
- win2K laptop, 5.00.2195 SP4, 1.2Ghz, 768Mb RAM, running behind a linksys wireless (I was physically connected however.) Cable modem ~250Mb


- I scheduled a race using RowPro (eval version)
controlCenter->internet->session studio
- the race showed up in the session list, everything looked good so far
- 2 people signed on, total was now 3
- I wont go into the problems with the GMT, assume you know all about this
- as race time approached, I attempted to get the party started
sessionSetup->internet
but, my race didnt show up, got some kind of error "no sessions for me to join"
- as I saw other sessions for me to join, I figured it was a problem with my eval copy, so I bought the SW, and created a race on Oarabits.. but had the same problem, my race didnt show up in the sessionSetup.. No matter what I did, no race that I created as master would show up in the sessionSetup.. I assume I ended up leaving my 2 potential partners high and dry..

I suspect this is still some form of the GMT problem. My suggestion is to use your browser and go to the digitalrowing.com website the select Oarbits > Session Studio and create your race from there. Remember if you create a race and you show up one hour off you won't see and race to enter. They only show up 15 or 20 minutes before the scheduled race start time. Another option here is to go to the ReRow site to look at your race after you create it. You should see it there with the correct local time for the start. You can ReRow here: http://www.rerow.com/erow/default.asp Try that and let me know how it works for you.

Couple other items:
- Race Master should be able to delete a race, not just edit it
- as race master, I was unable to edit the race and change the distance successfully (which I had erroneously created as a 2K when it should have been a 10K)
- I get "unhandled exceptions" all over the place
- the chat sessions should only get broadcast to the members of a particular race. I kept getting cross talk...

The race master can already delete the race. All you have to do is list the participants and click the check box to delete each participant. The last one you uncheck is yourself. Once there are no participants the race will be deleted. Note that if you uncheck yourself first you will leave the race but the next entrant will become race master. Even if you rejoin the race you have lost control and can no longer deleter other participants or the race itself.

I'm not sure why you can't edit a race this has worked for me in V2.0. I would suggest trying this from the DR site through Oarbits also.

I get a rare unhandled exception. What are you doing when you get the errors?

All in all though, I am in SW development myself, so I know how difficult it is to do this type of thing. I want to encourage you guys & gals to stick with it as I am really looking forward to my first online race!!
Quick Race seems to work great..

If you are looking for a beta tester, or more info on this post, email me at ch_goss@hotmail.com

We had an alpha and beta test group for the initial online release. I'm not sure what Pete plans to do this time. Seems like at least a controlled release group would be wise to get it going. The real issue is that the new racing system will not be compatible with the old so there may be a lot of shuffling back and forth until all of the bugs are worked out.

Frank

[billw]

Hello,

Have used v2 approx 10 times now - some observations

1. Once I pulled 5000m with the first stroke of the session - the trees whizzed by very quickly - and I had done 5000m on one stroke.

2. Sometimes my pace boat will take off on my first stroke and my boat will just sit there

3. I have not had problems with Just Row - but if I start doing anything with custom training sessions or pace boats then the above problems occur - this was approx 10% of time in v1.8 and not enough sessions yet for v2 to estimate %age

4. V2 insisted that I have a H drive before it would install

Anybody else have similar issues ?

Bill

[Shannon]

Hello,

Have used v2 approx 10 times now - some observations

1. Once I pulled 5000m with the first stroke of the session - the trees whizzed by very quickly - and I had done 5000m on one stroke.

2. Sometimes my pace boat will take off on my first stroke and my boat will just sit there

3. I have not had problems with Just Row - but if I start doing anything with custom training sessions or pace boats then the above problems occur - this was approx 10% of time in v1.8 and not enough sessions yet for v2 to estimate %age

4. V2 insisted that I have a H drive before it would install

Anybody else have similar issues ?

Bill

Bill,

I row online with RP v2 2-3 times/week. I have twice had the video problems you mentioned with the trees whizzing by. It was always someone else who was doing the whizzing though, not me! I haven't had any of the other problems that you mentioned.

Shannon

[michaelb]

Thanks for posting this Frank, and hopefully Pete and the others at DR will actually read it. Do we know why they don't ever post on either C2 forum? Their forum is so primitive and so rarely used, it would be great if they brought feature and bug discussions over here instead.

1) I think the demo for new installs and users should be as easy as possible. I don't like the uptight user restrictions and the online authentication system. I, and I think many others, have had problems with initially installing RP and setting it up. The online rowing race profiles and authentication also seems confusing (multiple servers and profiles) and excessively uptight. We are rowing, not doing online banking. So a full featured 30 day unlimited use demo, with bombproof online rowing for all demo users (no profile to set up, nothing to configure).

2) All online rows should show up in the session list for that time, whether or not you are signed up, so people can see what is going on when they arrive. There should be a way to join a scheduled row from the session list (I would drop the internet tab part of RP entirely, since I can't think of a use for it).

3) If dropping the erow protocol allows enhanced stability for online rowing, I am all for that. I don't usually have problems when I row online, but others do. If a rowers connection is lost, they should be able to continue rowing, and their status (say offline) should be broadcast to the other boats, so we can distinguish between Frank taking a pager during a row and somebody dropping out. If the connection is reestablished during the row, that rower should just come back to the race and be reupdated in the display. Enhanced stabilty also means supporting weak and mediocre wireless connections.

4) I am not a big fan of the chat system. I don't use any other online chat, but this seems to cause a lot of problems, so I would favor a new design or a complete rewrite. At minimum, the default should be "select all" when you join chat, and when new rowers join they should be added to my list as selected. I like the new status icons, but I would think of adding some new ones, like one for ready to race and one for not ready to race, since this is better done in chat then by just looking at the race start screen.

5) I would like some way to see the names and lanes of everyone in the online race. Maybe it is just me, but I have a hard time keeping track of who is who. The initials on the flag help, but I would like names as well as the pace data to display (maybe names would work for the first 20 secs of the race if we don't want to clutter the screen).

6) I like the broadcast camera for variety, but I think it needs some changes or customization. This is probably a whole subject itself. But less for focus on the front boat, profiling everyone in the race as we go along, 500m status display should not be limited to front boats, but should switch to you if you are more than 100m back; more time (maybe half time) should be the classic old 3d view, so some of the time we can get in a groove and row too.

7) The DR website support is really bad. I don't think they should let cries for help flounder for days on their forum. They often don't respond for weeks, and this has led people to think they have gone out of business. When they do post, they often post so little info (say just a note to email Pete directly) that it is difficult for those of us who do periodically go there to offer help in a more timely fashion.

8) Poor beta testing. I have used RP online since the day the 1.7 beta was released. In that time (now 1 and 1/2 years), I don't think DR has ever conducted a public online test. I have seen them several times online when I row (9pm EST) conducting private tests. I think at least part of the reason they don't find bugs is that their tests are far too limited. When 2.005 is released as a beta, DR should set up multiple test rows throughout the day for a 2 week period and invite people to sign up and test it. They should be present for those rows, in chat and watching the server on the server side. Once I was rowing online (I think with Andy from Brasil) and he was having problems, and Pete or Glen was in chat, and I got them to row a test with us, and that let them see Andy's problem. I think that was helpful for us and hopefully for them.

It is a great product otherwise, and I would be lost without it. I think they should have more confidence that if they let people test RP by actually getting to row online, most of those users will happily buy it.

[tomhz]

Good post, Michael

very good summary of enhancement requests. For me, your point 3 has highest priority. Indeed, if that can only be done by dropping E-row support and use only 2.005 for online racing: so be it.

Tom

[chgoss]

I suspect this is still some form of the GMT problem. My suggestion is to use your browser and go to the digitalrowing.com website the select Oarbits > Session Studio and create your race from there. Remember if you create a race and you show up one hour off you won't see and race to enter. They only show up 15 or 20 minutes before the scheduled race start time. Another option here is to go to the ReRow site to look at your race after you create it. You should see it there with the correct local time for the start. You can ReRow here: http://www.rerow.com/erow/default.asp Try that and let me know how it works for you.

That worked great Frank, I guess my confusion stemmed from seeing 3 different versions of the race time (oarbits, sessionStudio, and sessionList). If I just ignore everything except what is on oarbits, it works great.

The race master can already delete the race. All you have to do is list the participants and click the check box to delete each participant. The last one you uncheck is yourself. Once there are no participants the race will be deleted. Note that if you uncheck yourself first you will leave the race but the next entrant will become race master. Even if you rejoin the race you have lost control and can no longer deleter other participants or the race itself.

I havent tried deleting a race, but will

I'm not sure why you can't edit a race this has worked for me in V2.0. I would suggest trying this from the DR site through Oarbits also.

I was able to edit the race through Oarbits

I get a rare unhandled exception. What are you doing when you get the errors?

mostly just switching between sessionStudio and sessionList.. but I dont recall in detail, I will try to reproduce it and let you know..

cheers!

[rowan]

My Rowpro crashes a lot when online, or gives unhandled exception errors.

Sometimes, after an online row just before or after clicking to save stroke data, and sometimes just moving around within the program changing between session setup and the internet part of the control panel, looking at session details etc...

Some of these crash scenarios I can repeat every time. For example, if I do the following, it gives an unhandled exception every time:
1. go into the dreaded internet part of the control panel.
2. click "session list" (notice that after you click "session list", the text on the button changes from "session list" to just "session". Same for "session studio" and "send message"; any button with two lines of text loses the second line.).
3. now click the "details" button at bottom right without choosing a session first.
4. if you didn't choose a session first, you get the unexpected exception.

Another one:
1. go into internet control panel
2. click "send message"
3. click send without specifying a recipient
4. unexpected exception

These errors I mentioned are just annoyances because most of the time you can click continue and proceed with the program, and most of the time you're not doing silly things like clicking send without specifying a recipient etc..
I mention them because they were easy to recreate, whereas the errors I've been getting joining races and after races I cannot so easily recreate.
I just wanted to get it into this thread that the thing is crashing a lot, under a lot of different circumstances.

[rgec]

I haven't been able to successfully use RP online since 1.7. Since then, it has been hard to predict whether the online function will work or not, so I haven't done so - causing drop-outs in the preparation and during races just pees other folks off, so I figured it was best for me to stay away.

I have had a couple of e-mails from DR indictaing that it is micro-outages on my ADSL line that are causing this issue.

I would dearly like DR to design a protocol that will work more robustly with ADSL. Guys, if you can't do it, let me know. I'll do it for you. It's not hard.

I hate to think that DR are not doing this (changing the protocol) to keep folks on e-row happy, even though folks like me have stumped up for RP and can't use its most useful function.

(You may be able to tell that I'm not a happy owner).

[Frannie]

Hi all... there's a current thread on the the UK forum detailing a pretty bad experience I've just had with RP and the Marathon.

If you'd like to view my cautionary tale it can be found at:

http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 125#208125

Cheers,
Frannie

.

[johnlvs2run]

I'm glad y'all are working this out because just beginning to read this thread was hard work for me.

Thanks.

[rowan]

I'm glad y'all are working this out because just beginning to read this thread was hard work for me.

Thanks.

John, why don't you give Rowpro a go, it's really worth the hassles. We'll help you work it out if you think it's too hard for you.
For a guy like you who has an erg at home and seems to have a lot of time on his hands, and likes to row a lot, Rowpro should be a godsend. It's fun rowing with other people.