Wolverine Plan Discussion

[old] dougsurf · Post by **[old] dougsurf** » January 17th, 2006, 5:22 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Thomas @ Jan 17 2006, 10:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Jan 15 2006, 02:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>My general experience is that for every <b>one</b> week my training is interrupted from my normal routine, my progress drops back about <b>three</b> weeks. Note that I’m not talking about <i>no training</i> , I’m talking about irregular or reduced training. But probably most people who don’t train as much as I do to begin with won’t experience quite such a drastic decline (I sort of look at it as, the higher up the mountain you’ve climbed, the farther you have to fall). <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I have found the same thing to be the case, unfortunately. Perhaps 10 years ago it was not the case for me, but I have unintentionally found out that it takes weeks to get back to where I left off. From reading various UK diaries, others have found the same to be true, even those that ran, biked, and/or lifted weights while away from the erg, which supports the idea of being sport specific if you want to make improvements in a specific activity. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />My understanding, with the caviott that everyone is different, is that it's a lot more complicated than a simple ratio of 1:3. My general understanding is that that's a good overall ratio for long term detraining effects, eg 1month:3months, but I'm not sure about a time as short as one week. This would kind of fly in the face of most tapering theories, but I know Mike doesn't support tapering. Anyway I think most folks believe little is suffered at all, up to about a week. Not to say you can take every other week off. "Peak Performance" just had a decent article on detraining. They broke up the effects into four components, each with different detraining rates: Cardio-Resp detraining, metabolic detraining, muscular detraining, and hormonal detraining. Closer to home, i think the common belief is that aerobic, steady state training and detraining take longer than the anaerobic end. Unfortunately, according to PP, its the hard earned lactate threshold training that can diminish over just a few days. Their bottom line is that a change in activity (cross-training) is far better than pure rest. In any case, it'd be good to have a thorough discussion of it sometime.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 21st, 2006, 3:38 pm

Awesome workout today, a week or so before my first venue race ... validation for me that I can go sub 7:20 and stay on plan ... the WP that is!<br /><br /> <br /><br /><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'><b>LEVEL 1 - 8 x 500M</b></span></span><br /><br />Shot for average of 1:49.55 (1:49.9, 1:49.8, etc.).<br /><br />Actual: <b>1:49.1</b><br /><br />All were negative splits except one, where I was banging slides and had to get back in rhythm ... that very much sucked! All intervals, even the banging slides interval, were better than target pace.<br /><br />Bested my last 8 x 500M from 12DEC05 by -1.45 seconds. Lots of gas left in the tank, but I controlled myself and stayed with a "baby steps" approach. First time under 1:50.0 average for this workout as well.<br /><br />Thanks Mike!<br /><br />

[old] FrancoisA · Post by **[old] FrancoisA** » January 21st, 2006, 3:58 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 07:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Awesome workout today, a week or so before my first venue race ... validation for me that I can go sub 7:20 and stay on plan ... the WP that is!<br /><br /> <br /><br /><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'><b>LEVEL 1 - 8 x 500M</b></span></span><br /><br />Shot for average of 1:49.55 (1:49.9, 1:49.8, etc.).<br /><br />Actual: <b>1:49.1</b><br /><br />All were negative splits except one, where I was banging slides and had to get back in rhythm ... that very much sucked! All intervals, even the banging slides interval, were better than target pace.<br /><br />Bested my last 8 x 500M from 12DEC05 by -1.45 seconds. Lots of gas left in the tank, but I controlled myself and stayed with a "baby steps" approach. First time under 1:50.0 average for this workout as well.<br /><br />Thanks Mike!<br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Good job Mark! <br /><br />I didn't know you were using slides. Do you find that you have to adjust the ref pace or stroke rate when doing L4 compared to off slides? Also, do you find them easier on your back and shoulders?<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Francois

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 21st, 2006, 4:14 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 21 2006, 03:58 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 07:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Awesome workout today, a week or so before my first venue race ... validation for me that I can go sub 7:20 and stay on plan ... the WP that is!<br /><br /> <br /><br /><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'><b>LEVEL 1 - 8 x 500M</b></span></span><br /><br />Shot for average of 1:49.55 (1:49.9, 1:49.8, etc.).<br /><br />Actual: <b>1:49.1</b><br /><br />All were negative splits except one, where I was banging slides and had to get back in rhythm ... that very much sucked! All intervals, even the banging slides interval, were better than target pace.<br /><br />Bested my last 8 x 500M from 12DEC05 by -1.45 seconds. Lots of gas left in the tank, but I controlled myself and stayed with a "baby steps" approach. First time under 1:50.0 average for this workout as well.<br /><br />Thanks Mike!<br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Good job Mark! <br /><br />I didn't know you were using slides. Do you find that you have to adjust the ref pace or stroke rate when doing L4 compared to off slides? Also, do you find them easier on your back and shoulders?<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Francois <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Francois:<br /><br />I find no difference in pace with or without slides. L4 workouts are no problem with them.<br /><br />I do not use them when intentionally going for a PB or racing online, just because the banging, if you have some poor strokes, can waste a whole bunch of energy (I can have a problem with them when doing a racing start for a short piece). Might just be my poor beginners stroke!<br /><br />I do find them <b>much </b>easier on the back ... don't really have a feel for any difference with the shoulders.<br /><br />-- Mark

[old] tennstrike · Post by **[old] tennstrike** » January 21st, 2006, 7:10 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 02:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Awesome workout today, a week or so before my first venue race ... validation for me that I can go sub 7:20 and stay on plan ... the WP that is!<br /><br /> <br /><br /><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'><b>LEVEL 1 - 8 x 500M</b></span></span><br /><br />Shot for average of 1:49.55 (1:49.9, 1:49.8, etc.).<br /><br />Actual: <b>1:49.1</b><br /><br />All were negative splits except one, where I was banging slides and had to get back in rhythm ... that very much sucked! All intervals, even the banging slides interval, were better than target pace.<br /><br />Bested my last 8 x 500M from 12DEC05 by -1.45 seconds. Lots of gas left in the tank, but I controlled myself and stayed with a "baby steps" approach. First time under 1:50.0 average for this workout as well.<br /><br />Thanks Mike!<br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><span style='color:blue'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Arial'>Great workout Mark! </span></span></span><br />Hadn't seen any posts from you in a while and wondered if you made your high altitude vacation and how you found the rowing if you had.<br /><br />Jeff

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 21st, 2006, 7:29 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tennstrike @ Jan 21 2006, 07:10 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 02:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Awesome workout today, a week or so before my first venue race ... validation for me that I can go sub 7:20 and stay on plan ... the WP that is!<br /><br /> <br /><br /><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'><b>LEVEL 1 - 8 x 500M</b></span></span><br /><br />Shot for average of 1:49.55 (1:49.9, 1:49.8, etc.).<br /><br />Actual: <b>1:49.1</b><br /><br />All were negative splits except one, where I was banging slides and had to get back in rhythm ... that very much sucked! All intervals, even the banging slides interval, were better than target pace.<br /><br />Bested my last 8 x 500M from 12DEC05 by -1.45 seconds. Lots of gas left in the tank, but I controlled myself and stayed with a "baby steps" approach. First time under 1:50.0 average for this workout as well.<br /><br />Thanks Mike!<br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><span style='color:blue'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Arial'>Great workout Mark! </span></span></span><br />Hadn't seen any posts from you in a while and wondered if you made your high altitude vacation and how you found the rowing if you had.<br /><br />Jeff <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Jeff:<br /><br />I had to go to Italy from last Friday through this past Wednesday evening, and only got in one row and 5 minutes to hit the site and update my meters while there. Since then, I've been off defending Dwayne Adam's honor, as if he needs my help ... long story about small minds.<br /><br />My high altitude trip is just after the start of the new month. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing the impact. I've found some ergs, with the help of Dennis Hastings, 10 minutes from where we're staying, so I should be able to get in a row or two while there. Since it's a guys ski trip, and the guys I ski with are serious skiers, we typically ski from first lift up, to last possible run before being cleared off the mountain. That might mean a couple of short 30 minute rows to get 'em in after ski, but before group dinner ... or I'll be an outcast! We've been doing this trip since 1993, and it's a tight group who likes to hang together and is not big on independent activity ... another long story. I'll let you know how it goes.<br /><br />How's the training?<br /><br />-- Mark

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 21st, 2006, 10:39 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Awesome workout today, a week or so before my first venue race ... validation for me that I can go sub 7:20 and stay on plan ... the WP that is!<br /><br />LEVEL 1 - 8 x 500M<br /><br />Actual: 1:49.1 </td></tr></table><br /><br />Congratulations for your workout PB, but isn't the relation around +3 to 4 seconds or so for a 2k.<br /><br />Which means 7:28 to 7:32 for the 2k.<br />

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 22nd, 2006, 12:11 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 21 2006, 10:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Awesome workout today, a week or so before my first venue race ... validation for me that I can go sub 7:20 and stay on plan ... the WP that is!<br /><br />LEVEL 1 - 8 x 500M<br /><br />Actual: 1:49.1 </td></tr></table><br /><br />Congratulations for your workout PB, but isn't the relation around +3 to 4 seconds or so for a 2k.<br /><br />Which means 7:28 to 7:32 for the 2k. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Good question John ... I'm not sure. <br /><br />For 4 X 1K, I'd say race pace -1 second. For 4 x 2K, I'd say race pace +4. I'm not sure about 4 x 500M -- but certainly race pace -2 or more. My current PB is 7:26.1, with 8 x 500M PB well above 1:49.1 when I did it, so it may be that I still haven't pushed the 8 x 500M as much as I should, or my personal correlation between the 8 x 500M and my 2K PB is different than most.<br /><br />My 4 x 2K PB is 1:58.05, done over a month ago, which would indicate 1:54.05 pace, which is also slower than my PB pace.<br /><br />Guess I'm dogging it at practice, just like in High School (so many years ago!).<br /><br /> <br /><br />Heck, I can't imagine a 8 x 500m at 1:47.5 (RP -4) ... yet ... but maybe I could do that???

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 22nd, 2006, 12:37 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 08:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Heck, I can't imagine a 8 x 500m at 1:47.5 (RP -4) ... yet ... but maybe I could do that??? </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd probably not be close to that either.<br /><br />As you said, the 1k's would be the better indication, and what counts is what you do in the 2k.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 22nd, 2006, 12:38 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 22 2006, 12:37 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 08:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Heck, I can't imagine a 8 x 500m at 1:47.5 (RP -4) ... yet ... but maybe I could do that??? </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd probably not be close to that either.<br /><br />As you said, the 1k's would be the better indication, and what counts is what you do in the 2k. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You got that right!<br /><br /> <br /><br />Ouch!

[old] tennstrike · Post by **[old] tennstrike** » January 23rd, 2006, 11:58 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 06:29 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Jeff:<br /><br /><br />How's the training?<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You might find that the club with the ergs opens early. When I was out west the facility opened at 5:30 am, although I got there every day around 7:00 am. Nothing like an hour erging in the morning to start your day out right.<br /><br />Funny story (painful actually) about the training. Two days ago I was also doing 500's, but as you may remember I only do 6. Well I was feeling feisty and for the third decided to go for a PB. (For the 6 x 500 I was shooting for and bettered a 1:49 average.) Unfortunately I didn't remember my PB and looked it up in an inaccurate source. So I was feeling really good to have shot for 1:41 and hit it. It actually seemed pretty easy. So, after the entire workout, including a 2K cool down, I see that my PB was actually 1:39.5. That explained why 1:41 was so easy and that's when I made my mistake and said to myself, let's beat the 1:39.5. Well, I did but without warming up again and hit 1:38.7. But it was my worst row since before the WP. I was at 1:37 going to the last 100 and just about everything fell apart. There was absolutely no form whatsoever for those last 100 meters. I managed to hang on to 1:39 and lost probably .2 from what "would have been". Then the next day did I feel it. Pretty much OK now after my 1 hour L4 yesterday. So, a lesson learned.<br /><br />Looks like the ANCIENTS are giving Dwayne a real run for his money. He might have to move to over 50,000 a day to stay in first!<br /><br />Have fun skiing. Start out around 5 seconds over your home pace.<br /><br />Jeff

[old] dgivnish · Post by **[old] dgivnish** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:59 pm

Good luck finding anything in a western ski town opening before 7am. Drink MUCH (2x, 3x) more water than you normally do at home - you'll need it. <br /><br />On another topic, I'm having trouble keeping to 16spm on L4. The only way I've been able to do it is to hold a pause at the finish for "1,2" and then start a recovery. <br /><br />Any comments on how I might be able to keep the slow rate more effectively or efficiently are greatly appreciated.<br /><br />Dave G<br />

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 23rd, 2006, 2:32 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tennstrike @ Jan 23 2006, 11:58 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 06:29 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Jeff:<br /><br /><br />How's the training?<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You might find that the club with the ergs opens early. When I was out west the facility opened at 5:30 am, although I got there every day around 7:00 am. Nothing like an hour erging in the morning to start your day out right.<br /><br />Funny story (painful actually) about the training. Two days ago I was also doing 500's, but as you may remember I only do 6. Well I was feeling feisty and for the third decided to go for a PB. (For the 6 x 500 I was shooting for and bettered a 1:49 average.) Unfortunately I didn't remember my PB and looked it up in an inaccurate source. So I was feeling really good to have shot for 1:41 and hit it. It actually seemed pretty easy. So, after the entire workout, including a 2K cool down, I see that my PB was actually 1:39.5. That explained why 1:41 was so easy and that's when I made my mistake and said to myself, let's beat the 1:39.5. Well, I did but without warming up again and hit 1:38.7. But it was my worst row since before the WP. I was at 1:37 going to the last 100 and just about everything fell apart. There was absolutely no form whatsoever for those last 100 meters. I managed to hang on to 1:39 and lost probably .2 from what "would have been". Then the next day did I feel it. Pretty much OK now after my 1 hour L4 yesterday. So, a lesson learned.<br /><br />Looks like the ANCIENTS are giving Dwayne a real run for his money. He might have to move to over 50,000 a day to stay in first!<br /><br />Have fun skiing. Start out around 5 seconds over your home pace.<br /><br />Jeff <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Jeff:<br /><br />Well, you got 'er done, even if it was ugly. Congrats on the new 500M PB. I want to "update" mine, but want to wait until after this weekend's race ... don't want to mess anything up in advance ... easy for a 47-year-old guy to do, as you know.<br /><br />And, erg before skiing all day? Yikes! No way! I'm not Dwayne!<br /><br /> <br /><br />-- Mark<br />

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 23rd, 2006, 2:39 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dgivnish @ Jan 23 2006, 12:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Good luck finding anything in a western ski town opening before 7am. Drink MUCH (2x, 3x) more water than you normally do at home - you'll need it. <br /><br />On another topic, I'm having trouble keeping to 16spm on L4. The only way I've been able to do it is to hold a pause at the finish for "1,2" and then start a recovery. <br /><br />Any comments on how I might be able to keep the slow rate more effectively or efficiently are greatly appreciated.<br /><br />Dave G <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Dave:<br /><br />Mike and the others here have spent lots of time on this. Start here:<br /><br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... st&p=42225' target='_blank'>http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... 225</a><br /><br />... and also do some other searches on "16SPM" to find what you need. There is lots of good information, and you'll find you are not alone in your issues ... they happen or happened to us all at 16SPM!<br /><br />Regards -- Mark

[old] dgivnish · Post by **[old] dgivnish** » January 23rd, 2006, 10:11 pm

Great - thanks for the thread. I'll try it tomorrow morning.<br /><br />DaveG

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