Wolverine Plan Discussion

[old] kjgress · Post by **[old] kjgress** » October 30th, 2005, 7:20 pm

Mike: I will begin by saying "thank you" for all the work you have done to present the WP to this forum. Also for the patience with which you answer and-reanswer questions for everyone who asks you to. I have read many pages of literature about the plan and have been implementing it since the first week of September. I have been able to design a weekly plan which is reasonable for me and has been working very well with one exception. I have been doing the level 4 workouts at too high an intensity. Now I don't know quite what to do to correct the problem. I set my reference pace too fast (yes, I know; what are you supposed to do when people don't follow the plan as they should. Then they ask you to bail them out). Although I have been able to exactly meet all splits and spm for each interval on each workout I can see a point in the near future where I won't be able to make the progressions. I also am beginning to get mental fatigue and am afraid of burnout. I knew the advice about reference pace and chose to somewhat ignore it. Since I have limited time for training I was increasing the workouts by changing reference pace. Based on reading additional literature and seeing physically where this is going I need to make some sort of change but I don't quite know what to do. My last level 4 sequence was this: 60 minute 196/208/192/208/196/208. The 196 and 192 sequences at 1:51 ref pace and the 208 at 1:52. I incorporated the 208 sequences about 6 sessions ago to try and get some higher stroke rate work into my longer workouts as my stroke rate has been stagnating. I think this was the wrong thing to do. My workouts are scheduled like this with the last session per workout listed: Sunday: level 3: 1250 x 8 with 1:30 rest. Last session 2:01.2 avg 26 spm Monday: Level 4: 4x10 3,3,3,1 made all splits and spm ref pace 1:51 Tuesday: Level 1: 8x500 with 3:05 rest. 1:51.7 avg 32 spm Wednesday: Level 3: 10K continuous 2:04.8 24 spm Thursday: Level 4: 60 continuous (sequence above) Friday: Level 2: 3K/2K/1K rest 2.5K/1,5K/ cooldown: 2:01.8 26 spm /1:57.1 29 spm /1:54.9 31 spm Saturday: Level 4: 60 continuous and in sequence with Thursday. Level 4 55% of training Level 3 30% of training Level 2 9% of training Level 1 6% of training My last 2K test avg'd 1:53.2 which I think is in line with my training so far but if I continue with my Level 4 schedule I think my Level 1 and 2 workouts will begin to suffer. I have continued to make gains but am beginning to see a limit, especially in level 4. How do I get my Level 4 workouts back in alignment? My spm is already at 20.13 for these sessions and we have just hit November. I really don't want to keep the same sequences and just back off on reference pace because it will lower the meters by 50-70 per session and set me back about 4 weeks. Should I keep the faster reference pace and back down on the sequences or return to the slower reference pace and make the workout longer to keep the number of meters up? That may be the best solution: to increase the workout from 60' to 70' to keep the meters going up but get the pace back where it should be. Any comments or thoughts you may have would be greatly appreciated as I know it's not your job to analyze everyone's training program for them and you do this to be of (great) help to those who ask. Sincerely, KJGress

[old] Mike Caviston · Post by **[old] Mike Caviston** » October 30th, 2005, 7:50 pm

Karen, at a quick glance your overall training looks pretty balanced and reasonable. In my opinion, the simplest and probably best solution to your Level 4 problem would be to keep the same Ref Pace but go back to easier sequences (say the 180-190 range). Don’t automatically increase the number of minutes (Level 4 volume) to compensate. Don’t worry much about the overall loss of meters as long as you are continuing to improve with your Level 1-3 workouts. For Level 4, re-establish your overall technique and consistency with your paces, rates, shifts, etc. The Level 4 workouts may seem a little too easy at first (though don’t be too surprised if they don’t), but that’s okay as I expect things will reach an appropriate balance before long. I’ve gone through a similar situation the past couple years as I’ve worked hard to get in shape in the fall for my USIRT trials, and then realize I can’t keep increasing or even maintaining the same workload all the way to CRASH-Bs. I just drop my weekly average spm back 6 weeks or so and re-cover old ground. That’s not ideal but it’s the adjustment I have to make to stay competitive for such an extended period. As my Level 4 training intensity has been somewhat out of phase with my overall 2K preparations on a few occasions, I have learned that Level 4 is the least critical of the WP training bands to maintain in exact proportion with overall training. There is a certain threshold I feel I need to reach for a fast 2K (probably about 19spm); beyond that I’d like to be faster, and work to become faster, but consider it less critical than getting those Level 1 & 2 scores as fast as possible. Hope that helps. Good luck! Mike Caviston

[old] kjgress · Post by **[old] kjgress** » October 30th, 2005, 9:55 pm

Mike: Sounds great and thanks so much for the feedback! Sincerely, KJGress

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » October 31st, 2005, 5:32 am

Mike, a training topic that comes up fairly often re the Wolverine Plan but that I don't think you've revisited here (yet) is Drag Factor. In the 2002 update of the general plan you wrote <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>As a matter of policy, always adjust drag factor to ~ 115 for Level 4 and ~ 120 for Level 3. Levels 1 & 2 may be set at your discretion to maximize your performance, but use good judgement. </td></tr></table> Presumably you wrote this with the eventual goal of seating compatible varsity-collegiate female athletes in efficiently stroked, well-synchronized multiple-person sweep boats. How do you feel about DF for other types of rowers, whether ergers only, scullers, males, HW vs LW, elite vs. non-elite, adaptive vs non-adaptive, juniors vs masters, etc.? Would you recommend changing anything?

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » October 31st, 2005, 8:19 am

For anyone who is looking for them, you can find the charts you need for Level 4 workouts in Post #42 on Page 3 of this topic. Thanks, Mike!

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 1st, 2005, 2:02 am

I spent about 45 minutes today just trying to digest and figure out this whole idea--the Level 4 workouts. Finally I have written down what I'm supposed to do tomorrow. I couldn't find the last chart I needed, the pace per stroke rate chart, but finally found it. The whole thing seems out of whack for me; I must be doing something wrong? My poor sad pokey 2K pb is at 1:57. If I plan on my first Level 4 40' workout being 168, 172, 176, 180, have I figured this out right? I'm supposed to do a 40 minute workout that goes like this: 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm this should total 2084 meters 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm this should total 2099 meters 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:17, 20 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm this should total 2111 meters 4 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:17, 20 spm 1 min at 2:12, 22 spm this should total 2113 meters warm up and recover rate is supposed to be 2:32 5--10 min before and after Total meters for workout @ 8407 plus warm up and cool down. These paces seem so ridiculously slow. Last spring I was rowing 30 min at 2:00, but my 2K was way out of line with my other times. Should I just go ahead with this even though it seems too slow? Should I guess at a faster pace, or jump ahead on the chart and at least start with harder sequences? I don't want to make the mistake of just jumping ahead and then burning out. Also, does anyone have any good tips for getting the stroke rate right? I was going to try to use a metrenome, but even if you do 3 beats per stroke (because most metrenomes don't go any slower than around 30), how do you cope with the fact that you would have to reset it every 2 minutes? That can't work. How does everyone else get in the right rate? I really want to give this a try but I'm somewhat baffled.

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » November 1st, 2005, 9:10 am

One way around the metronome problem is to use an electronic metronome program (or drum machine) you run through a computer & speakers. See my post in the FAQs thread on Rowing Music: <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... ost&p=5365' target='_blank'>Metronome</a> Alternatively, ErgMonitor's metronome bar is a great way to work on timing your stroke.

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » November 1st, 2005, 9:25 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 1 2005, 02:02 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I spent about 45 minutes today just trying to digest and figure out this whole idea--the Level 4 workouts. Finally I have written down what I'm supposed to do tomorrow. I couldn't find the last chart I needed, the pace per stroke rate chart, but finally found it. The whole thing seems out of whack for me; I must be doing something wrong? My poor sad pokey 2K pb is at 1:57. If I plan on my first Level 4 40' workout being 168, 172, 176, 180, have I figured this out right? I'm supposed to do a 40 minute workout that goes like this: 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm this should total 2084 meters 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm this should total 2099 meters 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:17, 20 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:26, 16 spm this should total 2111 meters 4 min at 2:26, 16 spm 2 min at 2:21, 18 spm 2 min at 2:17, 20 spm 1 min at 2:12, 22 spm this should total 2113 meters warm up and recover rate is supposed to be 2:32 5--10 min before and after Total meters for workout @ 8407 plus warm up and cool down. These paces seem so ridiculously slow. Last spring I was rowing 30 min at 2:00, but my 2K was way out of line with my other times. Should I just go ahead with this even though it seems too slow? Should I guess at a faster pace, or jump ahead on the chart and at least start with harder sequences? I don't want to make the mistake of just jumping ahead and then burning out. Also, does anyone have any good tips for getting the stroke rate right? I was going to try to use a metrenome, but even if you do 3 beats per stroke (because most metrenomes don't go any slower than around 30), how do you cope with the fact that you would have to reset it every 2 minutes? That can't work. How does everyone else get in the right rate? I really want to give this a try but I'm somewhat baffled. </td></tr></table> Carla, You've got it right. The paces will seem slow, on paper, but this workout builds endurance, and is not a speedy workout. Getting the pace/rate combination down is a challenge, but I think the best way to do it is with feel and watching the PM while fine tuning your stroke. It sometimes takes me 30 seconds to get it right when I'm slowing down, but soon you'll get the feel for the various segments. Mike's suggestion to get this was practice, practice, practice. (Did I expect anything else from a coach???) Another month of practice, and I fully agree. This is simply a workout you have to do to understand fully. And you have to do it several times to get some of the nuances of the shifts between pace/rate combos. You can't use a metronome effectively with this workout. You also can't use the PM clock for 20SPM, because of the display variances of up to .5 seconds...you'll range between 18-22 SPM if you're able to follow the clock. So, you'll have to go by feel and the PM. My reference pace is 1:49 based on my 2k from July. Although I'm probably capable of about 20 seconds faster for the 2k, I've kept the reference pace the same, and the workouts are still a challenge. This week I'm doing three 60 minute sessions. Those extra 20 minutes really start to fatigue the muscles, so you'll want to increase your total weekly time doing L4 workouts and get some longer workouts in. (I also do 70' and 2x40'). So, keep the reference pace but increase the time each week. I'd say have fun with this, but I have yet to find fun with this workout. You have to stay focused on where you're at with almost every stroke. Music can even be distracting, but I keep the tunes low key to not get caught up in the beat. Finally, don't overstroke the workout just to get the meters. I use RowPro and calculate the total strokes per set. On Sunday, I did a 184/188/184/188/184/188 workout that came out to a 180/190/181/190/190/190 but I hit all of the distances. I want to come in under the stroke count for each set and for the total. This is a challenge. When I do this workout again tonight, I'll do the same sets, but will have to watch the stroke rates to keep them slow. (16SPM is hard to hit with a consistent pace). Best of luck with your workout, but dive right in and keep adjusting. You'll get it.

[old] seat5 · Post by **[old] seat5** » November 1st, 2005, 10:24 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>It sometimes takes me 30 seconds to get it right when I'm slowing down, </td></tr></table> If the segments are only 2 min. to start with, I have the feeling there will be many segments where I can't ever get to the rate pace&rate combo. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You can't use a metronome effectively with this workout. You also can't use the PM clock for 20SPM, because of the display variances of up to .5 seconds...you'll range between 18-22 SPM if you're able to follow the clock. So, you'll have to go by feel and the PM. </td></tr></table> If I can't go by the PM, because it's apt to be off by .5 seconds, how can I go by "feel" and looking at the PM? Last time I tried this I tried to go by the seconds counting down on the PM, which works for 20 spm but not really well for anything that 60 is not divisible by. It didn't work. I don't have a sense of the right "feel" to go by. The whole point is to get the right number of strokes done at the right pace and the right rate, so completing the workout and being off by 3 or 4 strokes on every single 2 minute sequence I can't think would feel like having completed the workout succesfully. With the paces slower than I usually use for recovery, I can't see how the workout will feel as though I have expended any real physical effort but will have succeeded very well at making myself crazy. How do you not find it tremendously frustrating? I would think a metrenome would be excellent, because you can set it 3 x faster than the beat you want and have a 2 tic recovery and drive on the third; it's finding a way to have one that will change every 2 minutes to the beat you want so you don't have to stop and reset the foolish thing, which seems like it would totally ruin the workout. Obviously, lots of people are using this system and finding it very helpful, so I really must be missing something! Plus, Mike is an experienced coach of a good team of strong athletes and has the hammers to prove that he knows what he is doing. I am going to give it a try tonight, using a metrenome--maybe it won't be that disprutive just to reach over and turn the knob to the new beat every 2 minutes.

[old] joanvb · Post by **[old] joanvb** » November 1st, 2005, 10:24 am

Carla, I've been doing these workouts for a few years now, and I agree that hitting the stroke rate and pace is challenging, but does come with practice. I set the monitor for 2:00 intervals with no rest....So, the 2 minutes just keep repeating (the monitor will do up to 30x2:00 intervals). The interval number is displayed on the monitor, so it's not too hard to keep track of where you are. I find these workouts fun...The continual challenge is to hit the stroke rate and the pace, which seems to make the time go by faster. Good luck! Joan

[old] Guy_W · Post by **[old] Guy_W** » November 1st, 2005, 10:52 am

Maybe I'm missing the question but the following works for me .... (aside from looking at the monitor to get overall feel of too high/low SPM) I use the following which means that I take exactly the right number of strokes per 10' / 6': 1st stroke of each minute on 00 seconds, then if monitor counting down (eg. from 40'): 16 SPM I count to 4 strokes and look to see the seconds at the following as I take the catch (00s / 57-56 / 53-52 (shd be "52.5")/ 49-48 etc) and, most importantly, try to take my 5th stroke (mental count = 1 again) on 45 secs. Repeat taking 9th stroke on 30 secs, 13th on 15 secs. etc.... 18 SPM count to 3 strokes every 10 secs, so hit 1st, 4th (mental count = 1 again), 7th etc on 00, 50, 40 secs etc. 20 SPM is "easy", 3 seconds per stroke, .. 00, 57, 54, 51 etc... 22 harder, but you get the idea, I count to 11 and aim to split the middle stroke over the 45 / 15 secs. etc... Every so often when I grab a drink etc it is still possible to make up the right number of strokes by putting in (and counting) some faster SPM (and faster pace) strokes until catch up with where I should have been. Guy

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 1st, 2005, 12:17 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 1 2005, 07:24 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>If the segments are only 2 min. to start with, I have the feeling there will be many segments where I can't ever get to the rate pace&rate combo. With the paces slower than I usually use for recovery, I can't see how the workout will feel as though I have expended any real physical effort but will have succeeded very well at making myself crazy. How do you not find it tremendously frustrating? Obviously, lots of people are using this system and finding it very helpful, so I really must be missing something! </td></tr></table> S5, you really are over thinking this, the PM will give you both the current Stroke rate and Pace, hit the Rate first and stay on it while getting on Pace. After some practice the rate change will become consistent and you can put more focus on hitting the pace more accurately, with the change in ratio and flywheel speed, it will take at least 3 strokes to stabilize the Rate/Pace combination. The combinations you list don't require a different drive, but the time on recovery will change considerably.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 1st, 2005, 3:22 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Oct 31 2005, 11:02 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Also, does anyone have any good tips for getting the stroke rate right? I was going to try to use a metrenome, but even if you do 3 beats per stroke (because most metrenomes don't go any slower than around 30), how do you cope with the fact that you would have to reset it every 2 minutes? That can't work. How does everyone else get in the right rate? I really want to give this a try but I'm somewhat baffled.[right] </td></tr></table> I use 2 (identical) beats per stroke. For example, set the metronome at 64 for 32 spm. The metronome sits beside me so I just reach over in mid recovery and press it up a beat or two in between.

[old] tomhz · Post by **[old] tomhz** » November 1st, 2005, 3:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(seat5 @ Nov 1 2005, 02:24 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I would think a metrenome would be excellent, because you can set it 3 x faster than the beat you want and have a 2 tic recovery and drive on the third; it's finding a way to have one that will change every 2 minutes to the beat you want so you don't have to stop and reset the foolish thing, which seems like it would totally ruin the workout. </td></tr></table> Carla, you could try the Ergmonitor software. It has a metronome that helps a lot hitting the right stroke rate AND right stroke/recovery ratio. With Ergmonitor you only need to focus on the right pace. The right stroke rate becomes child play! Tom

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » November 1st, 2005, 6:57 pm

I use the PM for pace and rate only. When I used the clock on the PM for 20SPM, the display variances in the clock goofed up my rates. I asked this in another post and C2 confirmed this variance for me. I simply do like Paul stated, and get the rate right and then apply or back off on the power to get the pace. I didn't have a feel for this at all until I tried it. Now it's still a challenge, but I've learned to simply concentrate on the pace and rate only. Too much more information would make me crazy. The metronome is a great idea for maintaining a constant pace, but the variable rates in this workout present a challenge that I don't think can be overcome. (Unless you have 4 metronomes set up and know which one to follow for each pace!!!) Just do the workout and see how it feels. You can fine tune it as you go, and it will get better each time. There are some fine nuances on the shifts up and down, but I'm simply relying on Mike's success, and sticking with it for this season. (And probably for every future season for that matter). I have to agree with Pauls 3 stroke assessment, but I sometimes take a bit longer on this one, especially when slowing down, but it's getting better. Anyway, lots to think about with this one. I'll be doing another 60' tonight, and will see if I can pick up any tips. Let us know how your session turns out. (If 40 minutes is too easy, bump it up to 50 next time).

Concept2 Forum

Wolverine Plan Discussion

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training

Training