Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[p_b82]

For me and for most people, a lower rate with the same splits lowers the heart rate. It also trains a stronger stroke.

IMO 3 sessions a week of rowing is too little for very significant gains. Athletes in club-level in my university complain that 3x a week is too little for context.

I think you need to be very careful with sweeping generalisations like this.

There is always a cut-off point where a person's genetic make-up flips from higher work per stroke / lower rate to lower work per stroke / higher rate.

I am actually willing to bet, as a lightweight, you could actually run a higher rate for the same pace for the same HR response - you've just spent months only doing low rate, so your body has adapted. (which is why it is not good to only do the same rate all the time)

My "sweet spot" is actually r23 - but it is an individual thing.

And on point 2 - if a person keeps rowing 3x a week they will make significant improvements if the rowing effort is well focused. - it will take a little longer than some-one else doing more per week, but it is enough with 3x hard sessions as you don't need to factor in additional recovery. (One's peak on 3x will be lower than one with 5/6/7x - but one can make big gains still)

don't forget that there's also different metrics than just a 2k race...

My first row 2k (in 10mins) on 29/06/22 -> 42k on 02/04/24; that's a single session improvement of 40k in under 2 years. I'd class that as significant! (and apart from a back injury 4 months of the FM training was 3x a week, & as I took 2 weeks out for the injury, my last 6 weeks had those missed 6 sessions added in to make it 4x a week for the run into marathon day).
I've improved my 2k by 35s & my 30min by 575m - also imo not insignificant improvements....

[Nomark]

Another day another 10k. And I'm finally feeling some stamina come back. First time that it didn't feel like a struggle for the third quarter and I managed to finish strongly. It's still true what I used to say, when you do 4k (intervals) at sub 2:00, 10k at 2:20 and below feels much easier!

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
45:39.0	10,000	2:16.9	136	768	22
9:08.2	2,000	2:17.0	136	767	23
9:10.5	4,000	2:17.6	134	762	22
9:14.8	6,000	2:18.7	131	751	23
9:08.4	8,000	2:17.1	136	767	22
8:57.1	10,000	2:14.2	145	797	22

Stroke rate was a little high and I actually got quicker when I slowed down and put more power in each stroke, but otherwise very happy tonight. Beat my previous best of 2:19.1 comfortably.

[iain]

Today I managed 2:07, 2:06, 2:06, 2:03 2k for 4*2000m 4R at r24 all intervals. Is this bad compared to my ~7100m 30r20?

The long intervals in Pete's plans are intended to be done close to maximal. Pete says 4 x 2k is around 5k+0.5S/500m (admittedly open rate). So you are saying that you did the broadly 5k paced intervals R24 at about the same pace as 30R20 when I would have hoped for faster than free rate (maybe R24?) 30' that will be faster than 30R20, particularly for a lightweight. Subjecvt oif course to how recovered you are and the heat and humidity this is done in.

[PleaseLockIn]

Today I managed 2:07, 2:06, 2:06, 2:03 2k for 4*2000m 4R at r24 all intervals. Is this bad compared to my ~7100m 30r20?

The long intervals in Pete's plans are intended to be done close to maximal. Pete says 4 x 2k is around 5k+0.5S/500m (admittedly open rate). So you are saying that you did the broadly 5k paced intervals R24 at about the same pace as 30R20 when I would have hoped for faster than free rate (maybe R24?) 30' that will be faster than 30R20, particularly for a lightweight. Subjecvt oif course to how recovered you are and the heat and humidity this is done in.

Not very recovered and I did the 4x 2k in hot and humid weather. Tired too - had personal issues to deal with.

The 5k + 0.5 is with 5 minutes rest not 4 minutes. My nutrion was also quite poor - pizza and I almost vomited in multiple occasions. I was also stressed from a personal issue. I barely finished it…

I do think my R24 30’ will be significantly faster.

When I did the first interval a bit faster than 2:07, my HR was ~180 after 8 minutes. In the 30R20 it hit that at 5 minutes.

So higher rates let me ease a bit, and it confirms why sometimes when things go badly in 30R20 I raise rate to 21 or even 22-23 in the end. Ik as long as the average is r20 this is probably fine

[iain]

do think my R24 30’ will be significantly faster.

When I did the first interval a bit faster than 2:07, my HR was ~180 after 8 minutes. In the 30R20 it hit that at 5 minutes.

Great, might be worth a try at 30R24 as, in a 30R20 you should face issues with muscle fatigue, the 30R24 should help ensure that you have sufficient aerobic capacity so that you don't struggle excessively with this as well!

Depending on what you do in the rests, I don't think going from 5 to 4 min makes much difference and so I always use 4'. The 5' was already a reduction on the WP although Mike calls for only a minimal break with most rest done active and so having a slower effect (although possibly reaching a higher amount due to the benefits of maintaining blood flow). That said, people report a spread of how 2k compares with their 5k. Mentally they are very different challenges. Personally fine to have some workouts effected by real life it happens to all of us, so don't get dejected, but you asked the question and I would say the 30R20 was a significantly better result, not why!

[Nomark]

Week 3.2 of my 5 week mini plan done. 10k after a rest day was fast. New seasons best. Tried to keep the stroke rate down and it mostly worked. Much better split consistency meaning my stamina is up and I'm not tiring in the second half anymore. Probably 800m reps up next. Maybe 1500s.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
44:35.2	10,000	2:13.7	146	803	22
8:55.3	2,000	2:13.8	146	802	22
8:55.5	4,000	2:13.8	146	802	22
8:53.9	6,000	2:13.4	147	806	22
8:54.3	8,000	2:13.5	147	805	22
8:56.1	10,000	2:14.0	145	800	23

[reuben]

I'm just dropping back in to encourage Nomark, PLI, and newcomer grahamf.

Graham - I'm 67, so not far behind you, and I recently completed the BPP. For what it's worth, I did just the 3 core sessions per week. I had good days and mediocre days, but no truly bad days. Motivation waxed and waned, which contributed to the good/mediocre days. Some days it was more of a struggle to strap in than it was to actually complete the session!

It took me several weeks to develop something resembling a decent stroke. I could feel a hitch in my stroke, which was confirmed by a glitch in the force curve. Technique matters, but since you rowed in uni that probably wont be as much of an issue for you.

Recovery also matters, especially as we, uh, become more mature.

You can do it.

[grahamf]

I'm just dropping back in to encourage Nomark, PLI, and newcomer grahamf.

Thank you for the encouragement, Reuben. I certainly understand what you mean about the main struggle some days is just to strap in. That is so, so true!

And I am very pleased to hear that you have successfully completed the plan. That really does make me want to stick with it.

[grahamf]

Herewith Week 3 Exercise 1.

Time Meters Pace Watts S/M HR
28:55.7 6,000 02:24.6 116 19 142
04:49.0 1,000 02:24.5 116 20 131
04:50.6 2,000 02:25.3 114 19 140
04:50.8 3,000 02:25.4 114 19 140
04:50.3 4,000 02:25.1 114 19 152
04:47.9 5,000 02:23.9 117 19 148
04:47.1 6,000 02:23.5 118 19 145


Following the advice here, I tried to keep the workrate low(ish) to keep my heartrate down. It's hot here and even with the fan on and the windows open, I think that much of my heartrate is due to temperature.

I ended without feeling "empty" or wrecked, so the perceived effort was of a half hour pleasant row.

I haven't had my maximum heartrate tested for a while. Fifteen years ago I had a suspected heart attack (it wasn't) and I got tested to destruction by a cardiologist, topping out at 184. I hit 181 five years ago during a late night mountainbike hill climb (following which the club members refused to ride with me again unless I got an ebike!). Thus, hopefully, the HR above is not too bad. (Resting HR is 50, but as soon as I sit on the C2 it's at least 80 without moving! ).

[Nomark]

I'm just dropping back in to encourage Nomark, PLI, and newcomer grahamf.

Thanks Reuben, appreciate it and congratulations on completing the plan!

Following the advice here, I tried to keep the workrate low(ish) to keep my heartrate down. It's hot here and even with the fan on and the windows open, I think that much of my heartrate is due to temperature.

I ended without feeling "empty" or wrecked, so the perceived effort was of a half hour pleasant row.

Sounds just about right to me. If you've read back through the thread you may have noticed that I like to push my steady state rows a little, but that's just my personal preference (and probably not even ideal, but it makes me happy). There's lots of rules of thumb for SS from being able to hold a conversation or feeling like you could go twice as far if you had to or keeping your HR in a zone. Maybe you prefer the latter and as you get fitter you will have to speed up to maintain a 140+ HR? I don't have a monitor but I imagine it's a great feedback loop to see your HR (hopefully!) lower month by month for the same perceived effort.

Anyway, on with my progress - catch up week 3.3 4x1500, 3m rest. Still a bit wary of long reps so aimed for about 2:03. Turned out a fraction conservative based on my last rep but good to establish a baseline.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
24:24.3	6,000	2:02.0	193	962	25
6:08.8	1,500	2:02.9	188	948	25
6:08.9	1,500	2:02.9	188	947	25
6:08.1	1,500	2:02.7	189	952	26
5:58.5	1,500	1:59.5	205	1005	25
r53					

Previous best from March 8th was 2:00.4, so not too far off. Time for some more 10k's...

[PleaseLockIn]

In steady state, I don’t enjoy the “go twice as far if you have to” rule. I can do that for significantly higher speeds yet my HR will be already at 180 and firmly into AT. I could probably hold a 2:18 steady like that and yet I know this is not true steady state.

Holding a conversation with 5+ sentences with only very brief pauses seems a better metric. On this I feel 140-160 as my true SS range; with 160-175 or 160-180 depending on day as hard SS

Grahamf I am slightly concerned about the HR. If your RHR is 50. Ok, idk what your max HR is. If it’s 175 then your 152 is still over 80% of your heart rate reserve which is past UT1. I suggest getting a fan. Don’t go any faster for the next 6 weeks - wait for the fitness to improve. 6000m is not that bad for UT1 but there are recovery issues with UT1 rather than UT2 even if the UT1 effect is greater

I also have issues with heart rate drift - I start sessions at 145 at 20 min and end up at almost 160 at over an hour even in a very cool gym with only myself in and shirtless

I set true steady state cap at 70% HRR. Hard at 80% HRR.

Nomark not a bad session! You’ll get to your Mar bests. Maybe try a 30R20?

Yesterday week 19. 62 mins UT2. 2:28.4 r18 pace out of straps. Almost drifted into UT1 but started the session at 140s heart rate

[p_b82]

Herewith Week 3 Exercise 1.

Time Meters Pace Watts S/M HR
28:55.7 6,000 02:24.6 116 19 142
04:49.0 1,000 02:24.5 116 20 131
04:50.6 2,000 02:25.3 114 19 140
04:50.8 3,000 02:25.4 114 19 140
04:50.3 4,000 02:25.1 114 19 152
04:47.9 5,000 02:23.9 117 19 148
04:47.1 6,000 02:23.5 118 19 145


Following the advice here, I tried to keep the workrate low(ish) to keep my heartrate down. It's hot here and even with the fan on and the windows open, I think that much of my heartrate is due to temperature.

I ended without feeling "empty" or wrecked, so the perceived effort was of a half hour pleasant row.

I haven't had my maximum heartrate tested for a while. Fifteen years ago I had a suspected heart attack (it wasn't) and I got tested to destruction by a cardiologist, topping out at 184. I hit 181 five years ago during a late night mountainbike hill climb (following which the club members refused to ride with me again unless I got an ebike!). Thus, hopefully, the HR above is not too bad. (Resting HR is 50, but as soon as I sit on the C2 it's at least 80 without moving! ).

We're all built differently, and depending on how frequently you row, I'd say that those numbers are good to be starting out - esp with the RPE. Your HR is probably lower than mine would be under the same loading. (I've not rowed a piece at that pace this season to compare directly though but...)

I've a high hr for the physiological responses associated with the various training zones used in rowing circles; in this 15k row I was breathing once per stroke for the first 50mins (starting to switch to a 2:3 breathing:stroke ratio after that) , sweating (for me) was minimal on a warm evening; rate, form & posture were consistent throughout - and I had enough in the tank to crank it up to 290W (1:46 pace) for a ego driven strapless sprint into AN at the end - hit my max Hr in the process.
By the banding at the 1hr point my 177hr claims I was at the top end of TR... I was most def not panting or stressed.

What I'm trying to say, is listen to your body, it will tell you what it can/can't handle - and the hr based guides/zones don't fit all of us.

Take it easy at the start to bake in the form and muscle memory - and then find what sort of training approach works for you, both physically and mentally.

[rdraheim]

Herewith Week 3 Exercise 1.

Time Meters Pace Watts S/M HR
28:55.7 6,000 02:24.6 116 19 142
04:49.0 1,000 02:24.5 116 20 131
04:50.6 2,000 02:25.3 114 19 140
04:50.8 3,000 02:25.4 114 19 140
04:50.3 4,000 02:25.1 114 19 152
04:47.9 5,000 02:23.9 117 19 148
04:47.1 6,000 02:23.5 118 19 145


Following the advice here, I tried to keep the workrate low(ish) to keep my heartrate down. It's hot here and even with the fan on and the windows open, I think that much of my heartrate is due to temperature.

I ended without feeling "empty" or wrecked, so the perceived effort was of a half hour pleasant row.

I haven't had my maximum heartrate tested for a while. Fifteen years ago I had a suspected heart attack (it wasn't) and I got tested to destruction by a cardiologist, topping out at 184. I hit 181 five years ago during a late night mountainbike hill climb (following which the club members refused to ride with me again unless I got an ebike!). Thus, hopefully, the HR above is not too bad. (Resting HR is 50, but as soon as I sit on the C2 it's at least 80 without moving! ).

Dear Graham,

That looks quite similar to how I've been rowing. I've been on the machine (Skillrow by Technogym) roughly 15 times and just invested in a HR strap as I've been using a watch (I haven't seen large differences).

I'm trying to keep the HR below 140 bpm while working focusing on form. The data I'm seeing for me is drag factor: 125 and some of the data below. This was a 10-min warm-up before a 500m time trial (to set a 2k goal pre-Pete). It was 100W average. Over the 500m trial (1:46) my HR went from 93 to 173 and would likely have continued to climb. (I tend to walk about 10km/day and cycle about 8km with my son on back ... about 25-30kgs with his gear). My RHR according to the Garmin is 60. Good work on having a RHR of 50. I find it hard to keep below 140 while doing slow steady-state.

Data here:

https://ibb.co/h1gk4FgK
https://ibb.co/Zz1DPjT7

I'm going to do a 2k time trial to get a pre-Pete baseline (I'd speculate 7:45 +/- 0.15) this week.

Any advice for a noob like me starting Pete's?

[grahamf]

Well, I certainly feel like I messed up this morning. Week 3 Exercise 2: 2x2000m Rest 4min

Time Meters Pace Watts S/M HR
17:53.1 4,000 02:14.1 145 25 157
08:47.1 2,000 02:11.7 153 26 160
09:06.0 2,000 02:16.5 138 24 155

The high HR at the end is me sprinting that last 100m because, erm, I just can't stop myself. Up until the last minute HR was around 140 bpm.

However, the mess up was that I have been doing my morning row before breakfast. This morning there was just nothing left in the tank for the second 2000m. My legs just went into "bonk" mode. Hence the drop of 5s/500m between the two sets. Had I been on the bike, I'd have been sucking gels way before that!

A lesson learned and I may have to look at changing my regime. While it's hot, only gentle work early in the morning. Once we get into winter, I can switch my training time to the evening.

Lesson learned! Keep the work rate low for the moment.

[grahamf]

I'm going to do a 2k time trial to get a pre-Pete baseline (I'd speculate 7:45 +/- 0.15) this week.

Any advice for a noob like me starting Pete's?

I think I am probably the last person to ask: even 10 years ago I couldn't break 8:20 for the 2000m!

Good luck with your test!