Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[Nomark]

Some days are just bad days and they start that way from the first push - so well done for getting through it - as you say 6k is still 6k!

Re your stroke rate - I'd just take it as part of the development, you're now building a stronger stroke more naturally, so you're more efficient with it, once your CV side catches up you can make use of that at higher rates - my last 2k I only averaged r26; but I did my 5k at r28

Thanks. Yes I think my CV fitness (or lack thereof) is a big part of it. I also slightly over estimated my abilities and it turns out a 7.5W stroke is not half bad for me. Because I can manage 10W for 3 strokes at r20 I think I thought that was my stroke now

I think I'll try and keep the rate down next time and aim for a slightly higher power/stroke. Like I said I was a bit confused and was exhausting myself at r28 before slowing down just because it was an interval. But definitely need to improve the CV to use higher rates. I can see a way forward now improving both the strength and fitness sides. I was a bit disappointed this morning but stepping back for a few hours has given a better perspective.

[Nomark]

I added a 6th session in Week 12 - a 10 000 m split in 2 intervals as advised to maintain HR within (more or less) UT2. I decided 6000/4000 as HR ramps up from lower level for the 1st interval and it was spot on for my 'case', even whilst lowering the pace from my usual 2:20 to 2:16.

Repeated the same yesterday for W13.1. I believe this may be key to developing more Watts in the long term. I feel that I can sustain more distance and efforts from now on. Hence I have chosen this option for long intervals, setting long term goals for a post BPP training . Without the Watts, I will never reach my 2k target (7:20).

I missed this this morning - I think I was on the erg when you posted. I know it's been mooted here before, but that's an interesting approach. I'm curious to see how it works out. In theory you should be able to go faster and harder, but will the break affect CV fitness in any way. Probably not since you are still doing the same total metres. I might try it one day.

[alex9026]

I added a 6th session in Week 12 - a 10 000 m split in 2 intervals as advised to maintain HR within (more or less) UT2. I decided 6000/4000 as HR ramps up from lower level for the 1st interval and it was spot on for my 'case', even whilst lowering the pace from my usual 2:20 to 2:16.

Repeated the same yesterday for W13.1. I believe this may be key to developing more Watts in the long term. I feel that I can sustain more distance and efforts from now on. Hence I have chosen this option for long intervals, setting long term goals for a post BPP training . Without the Watts, I will never reach my 2k target (7:20).

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
45:18.3	10,000	2:15.9	139	779	20	144
27:10.7	6,000	2:15.8	139	780	20	143
r: 2:00	14						
18:07.6	4,000	2:15.9	139	779	21	145
r14					

Nicely done, I look forward to seeing how this approach treats you.

[alex9026]

I missed this this morning - I think I was on the erg when you posted. I know it's been mooted here before, but that's an interesting approach. I'm curious to see how it works out. In theory you should be able to go faster and harder, but will the break affect CV fitness in any way. Probably not since you are still doing the same total metres. I might try it one day.

I started to "break up" my steady state pieces this winter, initially as a way to quickly ramp up the volume on my longer pieces after a break off the Erg and have since stuck with them for the purpose you outline ie I'm a touch quicker without digging a hole recovery wise. I don't do it exclusively, I'll still row the occasional long piece straight through a couple of splits slower, I can't really shy away from the mental resilience those pieces give us. But for DJ1972's ambitions, the approach could work well.

[DJ1972]

I missed this this morning - I think I was on the erg when you posted. I know it's been mooted here before, but that's an interesting approach. I'm curious to see how it works out. In theory you should be able to go faster and harder, but will the break affect CV fitness in any way. Probably not since you are still doing the same total metres. I might try it one day.

Nicely done, I look forward to seeing how this approach treats you.

For long intervals, I will keep posting progress and effect. I quite like the idea, at a later stage, of a 15k split into 6/5/4 with 2 min rest and to work within the targeted HR bands.

I would not say that it went that well for:

Week13.2
 4 x 1000m / 3min rest – Slightly longer reps that the session in week 9 (or the optional session last week), but also the rest time is increased by a minute. Try to go for the same pace you managed in week 9, and your increased fitness should see you do a fast last rep!

Tired from the workday, I had to do one hour of gardening, and not eating at the right time and properly, all added adverse factors that may explain the slow start.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
15:36.7	4,000	1:57.0	218	1050	27	165
3:55.1	1,000	1:57.5	215	1041	26	159
r: 3:00	13						
3:56.9	1,000	1:58.4	211	1024	27	163
r: 3:00	13						
3:54.5	1,000	1:57.2	217	1047	29	167
r: 3:00	16						
3:50.1	1,000	1:55.0	230	1090	29	171
r42					

Target was 1:57. One may say that I achieved it. It is one added interval, but slow times were for the 1st and 2nd intervals. RPE was very high and it was horrible to see your legs not responding and times staying at 1:59-2:00. I had to increase SR to compensate for lack of strength and to dig deep for the last 2 intervals, but that is the plan I guess.

Peter's plan adds slowly more of those interval sessions. 3 to 4 for 1000m, this is tough. I am apprehensive of the jump from 3 to 4 for 2k.

[Nomark]

Target was 1:57. One may say that I achieved it. It is one added interval, but slow times were for the 1st and 2nd intervals. RPE was very high and it was horrible to see your legs not responding and times staying at 1:59-2:00. I had to increase SR to compensate for lack of strength and to dig deep for the last 2 intervals, but that is the plan I guess.

I know exactly what you mean and have had a couple of these sessions lately where the mind was willing but the body couldn't respond. Well done for digging deep, it's all good experience and I think improvements sometimes come in fits and starts so you might surprise yourself next time.

Week 12.1 Another 10k. I upped the pace again. I've temporarily given up on steady state (again), mainly because I have a busy few weeks coming up so likely to be erging every other day so if I can't go often I might as well go hard. Steady state is to protect your body from over training and I have no danger of that! My other theory is that people who post aspirational times seem to SS at 2:00 at most, so why not work towards that a bit more quickly, and if it's not really SS, I'll just fake it till my fitness catches up!

It wasn't anything like all out - I was watching the Avengers so not even that focused! - and I even had to curb my sprinting instincts at the end. It was fun, I just had the display on Watts and kept half an eye on it to keep SR under 24 and Watts at 150ish.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
44:13.9	10,000	2:12.6	150	815	22
8:50.0	2,000	2:12.5	150	817	23
8:49.5	4,000	2:12.3	151	819	22
8:53.5	6,000	2:13.3	148	807	23
8:55.6	8,000	2:13.9	146	801	23
8:45.2	10,000	2:11.3	155	832	23

Took almost a minute off my (steady state) PB. Is this grey zone? Around 2:10-2:15 for me where it's not really easy, not really hard but just above the hump (about 2:05 for me I think) that's *really* hard if not beyond my capability right now.

And in case anyone's wondering, I don't *think* my egos taking over, if anything I'm listening to my body and rowing at a comfortable, albeit challenging pace - I hope! We will see with intervals - I don't want to fall into the trap of SS too fast and intervals too slow.

[Dangerscouse]

Took almost a minute off my (steady state) PB. Is this grey zone? Around 2:10-2:15 for me where it's not really easy, not really hard but just above the hump (about 2:05 for me I think) that's *really* hard if not beyond my capability right now.

And in case anyone's wondering, I don't *think* my egos taking over, if anything I'm listening to my body and rowing at a comfortable, albeit challenging pace - I hope! We will see with intervals - I don't want to fall into the trap of SS too fast and intervals too slow.

Imo, grey zone is contentious and gets a bad rap but it's a very useful part of training. I'd say that grey zone is a bit more than neither hard nor easy. If that's 50%, I'd say it was 70% ish.

The conundrum of SS too fast etc isn't really an issue, as you'll never know if you could have gone faster, or you went slower due to other circumstances. I'd aim to use recovery as the best indication of 'too much', coupled with a good mixture of slow enough, grey enough, hard enough, sickeningly hard enough. Training doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

[Nomark]

Imo, grey zone is contentious and gets a bad rap but it's a very useful part of training. I'd say that grey zone is a bit more than neither hard nor easy. If that's 50%, I'd say it was 70% ish.

The conundrum of SS too fast etc isn't really an issue, as you'll never know if you could have gone faster, or you went slower due to other circumstances. I'd aim to use recovery as the best indication of 'too much', coupled with a good mixture of slow enough, grey enough, hard enough, sickeningly hard enough. Training doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Yeah I'm not sure if I'm using the grey zone terminology correctly. To me it's just faster than steady state (and my row yesterday was probably a little harder than I described!), but after some reading I gather it's a defined HR non-zone between other defined zones like AT or UT1, etc. I don't actually monitor my HR closely enough to use any zoned training yet - mainly because I'm still new enough that everything helps so I don't need to over complicate things or maximize training efficiency, and maybe never will.

I was reading some old threads the other day and I think it was you who said steady state is a misnomer and it should be sustainable state and a pace you could do everyday for an hour for days on end. That's all well and good, but that's not how I or most people row, so there seems like an overemphasis on SS. I like to go a bit faster to compensate lower volume with extra effort. As you say recovery is the best guide and more recovery time between rows means you can do more in each session to recover from! I do like the sound of your just so a bit of everything plan. Very K.I.S.S.

[PleaseLockIn]

Imo, grey zone is contentious and gets a bad rap but it's a very useful part of training. I'd say that grey zone is a bit more than neither hard nor easy. If that's 50%, I'd say it was 70% ish.

The conundrum of SS too fast etc isn't really an issue, as you'll never know if you could have gone faster, or you went slower due to other circumstances. I'd aim to use recovery as the best indication of 'too much', coupled with a good mixture of slow enough, grey enough, hard enough, sickeningly hard enough. Training doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Yeah I'm not sure if I'm using the grey zone terminology correctly. To me it's just faster than steady state (and my row yesterday was probably a little harder than I described!), but after some reading I gather it's a defined HR non-zone between other defined zones like AT or UT1, etc. I don't actually monitor my HR closely enough to use any zoned training yet - mainly because I'm still new enough that everything helps so I don't need to over complicate things or maximize training efficiency, and maybe never will.

I was reading some old threads the other day and I think it was you who said steady state is a misnomer and it should be sustainable state and a pace you could do everyday for an hour for days on end. That's all well and good, but that's not how I or most people row, so there seems like an overemphasis on SS. I like to go a bit faster to compensate lower volume with extra effort. As you say recovery is the best guide and more recovery time between rows means you can do more in each session to recover from! I do like the sound of your just so a bit of everything plan. Very K.I.S.S.

Steady state at this grey/yellow zone intensity personally is useful for shorter SS, or if I want to train my psychological resilience to doing X distance prior to attempting a TT.

I would define green zone as being able to speak entirely comfortably for 30-40 words w/o pause or gasp (Talk test), yellow is not entirely comfortably, red is not comfortable at all. For me, these zones correspond to UT2, UT1, and AT+ using the HRR% formulas respectively.

I try to stick to polarized training, though considering my schedule, I sometimes have to replace long SS with shorter, more intense SS at ~UT1. In practice, it looks like a pyramid nowadays.

Still about 6 months since I started rowing, but already I saw not everything helped. I experimented trying to keep my HR below 160 before in Dec and ended up simply pulling very weak strokes which did not help me at all. I also had to change to 2 rest days, SS closer to UT1 than UT2 due to my schedule and recovery (to fit in what I have to fit in)

Week 7 Day 3 - 8000m. Done at UT1, a grey/yellow zone piece for me, though not trying to hit the top of it to save my hard efforts for the intervals and/or the test.

https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/99165746

MHR = 169, Avg HR = 159, surprisingly very little drift. Guess the SS helped cut down this drift. 2:24.9 avg split, r19. A decent pace to keep for this week, trying to do a SS slightly harder than UT2.

[Nomark]

Week 12.2 4x1500, rest 3. A repeat of week 11.5 that I did on the 4th - if at first you don't succeed, and all that... Averaged 2:02.3 last week.

Went a lot better today time and RPE ways. However stroke rate was abysmal - is this what people mean when they say it takes months and years to get really fit - not sure I can manage 6,000m at 26,27 strokes or more. But I'm glad I stuck with my theory that if I can do 2:10-2:15 at r20 I could hit my 2:02 target at r22/23. Last time I went off at a sprint and couldn't keep it up. Had a strong (exhausting !) finish and took almost 2 seconds off my average pace and almost got down to 2:00.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
24:05.4	6,000	2:00.4	200	989	23
6:05.6	1,500	2:01.8	193	965	23
6:04.5	1,500	2:01.5	195	971	23
6:02.3	1,500	2:00.7	199	983	23
5:52.9	1,500	1:57.6	215	1040	26
r63		

[DJ1972]

Week 12.2 4x1500, rest 3. A repeat of week 11.5 that I did on the 4th - if at first you don't succeed, and all that... Averaged 2:02.3 last week.

Went a lot better today time and RPE ways. However stroke rate was abysmal - is this what people mean when they say it takes months and years to get really fit - not sure I can manage 6,000m at 26,27 strokes or more. But I'm glad I stuck with my theory that if I can do 2:10-2:15 at r20 I could hit my 2:02 target at r22/23. Last time I went off at a sprint and couldn't keep it up. Had a strong (exhausting !) finish and took almost 2 seconds off my average pace and almost got down to 2:00.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M
24:05.4	6,000	2:00.4	200	989	23
6:05.6	1,500	2:01.8	193	965	23
6:04.5	1,500	2:01.5	195	971	23
6:02.3	1,500	2:00.7	199	983	23
5:52.9	1,500	1:57.6	215	1040	26
r63		

Nice job, Nomark. Your SR at 23 is ideal for the moment. Now, how to maintain a higher SR with the same Watts and keep going ? It needs lots of base work.

This is what I have been trying to do lately. I managed to maintain SR at 24-25 and maintain > 190 W. Target was 2:02.9.

Week 13.5: [3 x 2000m / 4min rest] – Aim for the same pace as the 4 x 1500m last week.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
24:03.1	6,000	2:00.2	201	992	25	162
8:08.3	2,000	2:02.0	192	962	25	157
r: 4:00	61						
8:07.7	2,000	2:01.9	193	964	24	161
r: 4:00	17						
7:47.1	2,000	1:56.7	220	1056	28	170
r78				

PB on the last rep. Very positive. There is the same exercise on W14.2 with new target 2:00.2. It would be great if I can achieve that.

[Dangerscouse]

I was reading some old threads the other day and I think it was you who said steady state is a misnomer and it should be sustainable state and a pace you could do everyday for an hour for days on end. That's all well and good, but that's not how I or most people row, so there seems like an overemphasis on SS. I like to go a bit faster to compensate lower volume with extra effort. As you say recovery is the best guide and more recovery time between rows means you can do more in each session to recover from! I do like the sound of your just so a bit of everything plan. Very K.I.S.S.

I don't think it was me who said that, but it's true albeit with some caveats.

I'm very aware of how over complicated it can become as we try to use comparison as a means to build on, but in reality, you respond to things differently and one person's appetite is another's indigestion. Row, Evaluate, Adjust, Repeat. (R.E.A R)