Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[PleaseLockIn]

Week 10.3. Only 8k today. Pete recommended doing the first 6k at the 9.5k pace from 2 days ago (2:18.1) and then speeding up slightly.

Again I had the mind games as Monday was quite fast for me so was that an anomaly or should that be the real target? But I went for it and it was fine. A bit harder than Monday strangely. Maybe no rest day after yesterday's interval session is taking it's toll, but a very satisfying session today. Steady state pacing is hard because it's not peak effort. Everyone could shave a few seconds off their split if they had to, it's just about judging the perceived effort and finding the sweet spot. I like to err on the aggressive side, so feeling great after today. Tried to keep SR to 20-21 but wasn't as successful as Monday.

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
36:39.2	8,000m	2:17.4	135	763	21
7:20.5	1,600m	2:17.6	134	761	19
7:23.2	3,200m	2:18.5	132	753	20
7:23.6	4,800m	2:18.6	131	752	22
7:19.9	6,400m	2:17.4	135	763	22
7:12.0	8,000m	2:15.0	142	789	22

Quicker than all my previous 8ks that were in the 37:s. This seems to be one of the favourite distances on the BPP so today gives a good target for next time.

I suggest getting a metronome at eye level and ticking every 3 seconds for r20. Or count "miss-is-sip-pi one" at normal for 3 times to have 3 seconds.

From my perspective, steady state is supposed to be something you do not need much recovery for. From trial and error I prefer a pace where I can recite several sentences at least, or even a paragraph (or more). RPE of 3-4, where it is quite relaxing but still a slight feeling of work. 1 breath per stroke.

For me, this usually makes me settle in the 160s HR (though in bad days, it can get to 170s). Top UT2, bottom UT1. When in doubt, go slower for steady state. If no rest day after intervals is taking its toll, I suggest slowing down to at least 2:20 (or 2:26 like I do).

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	HR
38:56.9	8,000m	2:26.0	112	686	20	163
4:51.7	1,000m	2:25.8	113	688	20	156
4:52.3	2,000m	2:26.1	112	685	20	152
4:52.3	3,000m	2:26.1	112	685	20	163
4:52.1	4,000m	2:26.0	112	686	20	167
4:52.0	5,000m	2:26.0	112	687	20	165
4:52.4	6,000m	2:26.2	112	685	20	167
4:51.5	7,000m	2:25.7	113	689	20	166
4:52.5	8,000m	2:26.2	112	685	20	172

(https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/98679058)

Today, felt a bit harder, at around halfway I felt a "switch" in effort, from the 3-4 (more relaxed, still working, etc) to 4-5 (a bit less relaxed, can only say multiple sentences, a bit of lactic acid in my legs). I think this is where I switched from UT2 to UT1 (so a half/half session). But hey, still decent.

[DJ1972]

Week 11.5
[4 x 1500m / 3min rest] – Week 8 was the last time you did this session. Now that you’re doing the same session every few weeks, use the following method to know how to pace them. Take your average pace from the previous time you did the session, and row that pace for all but the last rep. On the final rep try to go a little faster, and note down your new best average pace for the session.

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
24:50.1	6,000m	2:04.1	183	929	26	162
6:17.5	1,500m	2:05.8	176	904	25	156
r: 3:00	18m						
6:13.5	1,500m	2:04.5	181	924	26	161
r: 3:00	17m						
6:13.5	1,500m	2:04.5	181	924	26	166
r: 3:00	18m						
6:05.6	1,500m	2:01.8	193	965	27	166
r53m				

For some reason, I did not warm up as usual and went straight to the intervals. At the first rep, I was not responsive obviously when target was 2:04.5.
Today, Week 12.2, target for the same at 2:04 and last rep lower.

Week 12.1
10000m – For the first time in the training plan you aren’t increasing the distance on these sessions any more, what a relief! You’ll be sticking to this distance for another 3 weeks too. Each time aim to improve on the average pace slightly, even if only by a tenth of a second.

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
46:15.0	10,000m	2:18.7	131	750	22	142
9:16.4	2,000m	2:19.1	130	747	22	139
9:14.7	4,000m	2:18.6	131	751	22	142
9:14.8	6,000m	2:18.7	131	751	22	145
9:15.3	8,000m	2:18.8	131	750	22	145
9:13.9	10,000m	2:18.4	132	753	22	143

It must be the first time that I achieve a good steady state (from my standard), keeping HR where I wanted. As I used to normally do, I also did not increase my SR towards the end to compensate for the tiredness. My Pace was dropped by 1 sec from my usual pace for a long distance (2:20).

From now on, Pete advised on the long sessions to speed up if you 'can'. I surely can, but my HR will go beyond the UT1/UT2 zones where I wish to work on.
I am worried about recovery and pushing too hard may be detrimental for the other sessions.
How to get the best of those endurance sessions after Week 12? What is your view?

[Dangerscouse]

From now on, Pete advised on the long sessions to speed up if you 'can'. I surely can, but my HR will go beyond the UT1/UT2 zones where I wish to work on.
I am worried about recovery and pushing too hard may be detrimental for the other sessions.
How to get the best of those endurance sessions after Week 12? What is your view?

Tbh, I'm always reluctant to stick rigidly to HR zones as they're just approximations, so recovery is the main focus for your decisions, which admittedly is difficult as you're always working with hindsight and sometimes your recovery is compromised due to other reasons than pushing too hard in your rowing sessions.

What you could do is mix them up eg do one slower and one faster, or just choose based on your intuitionon any given day? I always add in some grey zone sessions as I think that they're beneficial and we don't do enough distance / time to really need to avoid them.

[Joris]

From now on, Pete advised on the long sessions to speed up if you 'can'. I surely can, but my HR will go beyond the UT1/UT2 zones where I wish to work on.
I am worried about recovery and pushing too hard may be detrimental for the other sessions.
How to get the best of those endurance sessions after Week 12? What is your view?

I interpreted “speed up if you can” as, speed up if you can without abandoning your desired HR zone (or without abandoning your desired intensity zone).
For myself, that meant trying to go one second faster every week, with the intention that I would not speed up if I felt my heart rate was (almost) too high last time or if I would not feel in good shape that day. (I defined my preferred average heart rate roughly between 130 and 140)

Surprisingly, it turned out that for me, 1 second faster per week roughly corresponded to my improving fitness.
So with this strategy, for several weeks in a row now, I have been reducing my split time weekly by 1 second (from 2:30 to 2:24), with my average heart rate remaining more or less constant.

For the shorter steady states (8k, 30 mins, 2 x 15mins, ...), I try to follow the same approach: firstly I tried to estimate which pace would suit my desired intensity/heart rate band. Once I've found that, I try to speed up by about 1 second each time the same session turns up again.

Probably it is a rather conservative approach, but so far I am satisfied with it. On the one hand, you keep making progression this way, and on the other hand, you protect yourself from going too fast, which I don't think is the purpose of steady state.

Sometimes it is tempting to go faster, but I have had enough injuries in the past to impose some discipline on myself and appreciate that I can build up my fitness gradually with the lowest possible risk of injury. Everyone is different, but I prefer a cautious approach and thus no experiments with big trials and errors and if I'm not mistaken you also prefer some kind of cautious approach?

[Nomark]

I'd recommend just tweaking your perspective and developing your interoception. Row hard until you feel like the leg power is slipping then back off and repeat as necessary.

Building up a good mind/body connection to the necessary effort is what will help you minimise these moments. You won't eradicate them, but you can learn to know when it's starting to happen and act accordingly.

Iteration, hard work and discipline on bad days and mentally weak days will all combine to help you progress. Probably too slowly for your liking but it will feel like six month's worth happens all at once

Thank you, I will give it a go and try and stay more present in the longer intervals. Its both mental and physical. Mentally I will try your approach and build that connection and catch it when things start to slip. Physically, it might be a case of backing off to go faster. My overly aggressive reps meant I was gassed from the beginning, so I was hanging on rather than driving myself to the finish. On the plus side it's all good experience. Even when you mess up, it teaches you what not to do!

[alex9026]

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
46:15.0	10,000m	2:18.7	131	750	22	142
9:16.4	2,000m	2:19.1	130	747	22	139
9:14.7	4,000m	2:18.6	131	751	22	142
9:14.8	6,000m	2:18.7	131	751	22	145
9:15.3	8,000m	2:18.8	131	750	22	145
9:13.9	10,000m	2:18.4	132	753	22	143

It must be the first time that I achieve a good steady state (from my standard), keeping HR where I wanted. As I used to normally do, I also did not increase my SR towards the end to compensate for the tiredness. My Pace was dropped by 1 sec from my usual pace for a long distance (2:20).

From now on, Pete advised on the long sessions to speed up if you 'can'. I surely can, but my HR will go beyond the UT1/UT2 zones where I wish to work on.
I am worried about recovery and pushing too hard may be detrimental for the other sessions.
How to get the best of those endurance sessions after Week 12? What is your view?

I'd echo Stu's thoughts in going one slower and one quicker. Alternatively, I like to negative split my longer pieces if I'm feeling good, as noted above the majority don't do enough volume to really avoid the grey zone stuff. I like the occasional broken metres approach, too, where I'm a quicker than my single piece steady piece. Taking your 10k above as an example, you could split it as a 2x20mins/2:00 at 2:16-2:17. Instead of 12k a 2x6k or even 3x4k on say a one minute recovery. I like a little variety to keep me engaged with the distance stuff.

[DJ1972]

Thank you all for the advice. I would apply a bit of each contribution. I will see how I will be able to recover whether I push a little more once or only during an interval if I split the session. All very good ideas.

Week 12.2
4 x 1500m / 3min rest – If you did this as the optional session last week, go for the same pacing plan again. If you’ve not done it since week 8, see the description for how to pace it last week.

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
24:33.8	6,000m	2:02.8	189	950	25	162
6:12.2	1,500m	2:04.0	183	930	25	154
r: 3:00	18m						
6:11.7	1,500m	2:03.9	184	933	25	161
r: 3:00	20m						
6:11.5	1,500m	2:03.8	184	934	25	164
r: 3:00	16m						
5:58.4	1,500m	1:59.4	205	1006	27	170
r54m					

For the first time, I have finally tackled correctly those speed and endurance intervals.
The target was 2:04. The first 3 intervals equal or slightly negative splits.
For the last interval, some advise to maintain the target pace and to sprint the last 500-800m. However, I chose a different approach with a 2:00 pace and maintained it until the end.

[Joris]

Due to a little fever I only rowed twice during the last eight days.

* 21/2 - Week 17 Day 4 [30 min] -> pace 2:20 ; average heart rate 137

Relatively easy and comfortable session, which was rather surprisingly given I felt a bit ill.

* 25/2 - Week 17 Day 3 [2 x 15min / 2min rest] -> pace 2:18 ; average heart rate 143 (139 + 147)

My heart rate raised a bit higher than expected, but I attribute that to the aftermath of my flu. I could have done the session a little slower, but I wanted to sweat out my sickness symptoms and train a bit more intensively than I usually do for this kind of session.
Afterwards I felt fine, so no regrets.

For the shorter steady states (8k, 30 mins, 2 x 15mins, ...), I try to follow the same approach: firstly I tried to estimate which pace would suit my desired intensity/heart rate band. Once I've found that, I try to speed up by about 1 second each time the same session turns up again.

Forgot to mention that for the 8k and 30 min steady states I aim for about the same intensity as the long steady states.
But for the shorter broken up steady states (2 x 15 min, 3 x 10 min, 4 x 8 min) I allow my average heart rate to go a bit higher (UT1/AT zone).
I'm not sure if that makes sense, but doing these sessions in the usual UT1 zone doesn't feel like a very useful excercise (too short for a good steady state but too slow for working on pace). So these are the sessions I personally find most difficult to pace properly. Depending on my mood I tend a little closer toward steady state pace or toward interval pace.

[Nomark]

Due to a little fever I only rowed twice during the last eight days.

Welcome back! I was going to message you to see how you were doing as you'd been a bit quiet lately. Glad to hear it was just a short illness and you are back on it!

Forgot to mention that for the 8k and 30 min steady states I aim for about the same intensity as the long steady states.
But for the shorter broken up steady states (2 x 15 min, 3 x 10 min, 4 x 8 min) I allow my average heart rate to go a bit higher (UT1/AT zone).
I'm not sure if that makes sense, but doing these sessions in the usual UT1 zone doesn't feel like a very useful excercise (too short for a good steady state but too slow for working on pace). So these are the sessions I personally find most difficult to pace properly. Depending on my mood I tend a little closer toward steady state pace or toward interval pace.

Exactly how I do it, albeit without the HR monitoring. I also do the 8k and 30minutes slightly faster than the longer pieces as you do. Still steady state but it's a shorter distance so it makes sense to take a second off.

We have had this discussion before about the long intervals falling between two stools of too short or too slow. I have decided to go more aggressive on these and treat them like interval sessions if I am well rested and try and beat my previous time. To be honest 3x10m is not far off 3x2k so I do then the same now. They are not full intensity like the shorter pieces yet, but they should get there soon as the average time target is still quite generous and it's hard to know how hard I can actually do them, so I just chip away at the times month by month.

Speaking of pacing, I did consider doing an "active recovery" piece yesterday. My legs still ached a little from i3 days in a row totalling over 25k at a decent clip. I imagined Olympians probably feel like this a lot and can't just have a day off, so what if I did 5-8k at 2:30-2:40? Would that be worth doing? I decided to listen to my body and have a break, but I'm curious on the science and whether it's miles in the legs or just a waste of time.

Anyway, today I tried week 10.5 (7x500m, 2r) but was interrupted by an important phone call I'd forgotten about half way through. I thought about carrying on but how do you get a meaningful result after a ten minute break? Anyway, the target of 1:56.5 felt reassuringly easy and I felt on track for a strong last rep. I may try again tomorrow or I might just skip it because week 11.2 is 8x500 and it's always a bit tricky doing a PB with 7 reps and then having to beat it with an extra rep a few days later.

For what it's worth:

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5:49.5	1,500m	1:56.5	221	1061	28
1:56.4	500m	1:56.4	222	1063	29
1:56.5	500m	1:56.5	221	1061	28
1:56.5	500m	1:56.5	221	1061	28

Only managed 3 and a half, but I found I could pull 1:56 quite easily and even had to slow down my stroke rate with the same power to not overshoot the target, so I had high hopes for a 1:50 to finish off with. We will see tomorrow or next week I guess, but another positive step reassessing my fitness after a couple of weeks off. It might not be quite as good as it was but still better than Week 7 me.
On the positive side it still puts a smile on my face to reread this post and see myself talking about a relatively easy 1:56, when an all out 2:01 used to almost kill me.

[reuben]

From now on, Pete advised on the long sessions to speed up if you 'can'. I surely can, but my HR will go beyond the UT1/UT2 zones where I wish to work on.
I am worried about recovery and pushing too hard may be detrimental for the other sessions.
How to get the best of those endurance sessions after Week 12? What is your view?

I think it was iain who mentioned possibly splitting long SS sessions into two intervals, for example splitting a 10k into 2x5k 2r. The rest is long enough to allow some HR recovery without being too long. Adjust as desired.

[Nomark]

I think it was iain who mentioned possibly splitting long SS sessions into two intervals, for example splitting a 10k into 2x5k 2r. The rest is long enough to allow some HR recovery without being too long. Adjust as desired.

"Adjust as desired" is the key here. At some stage we are going to progress from newbies being told what to do to actual rowers who work it out for ourselves and that starts with an awareness of how each session leaves us feeling in the subsequent days. It may be trial and error to start, but if you go too hard and can't push fully on interval day then pull it back a bit next week. And vice versa.

But we aren't robots and there is no correct pace that applies every day. Things such as sleep and stress can affect HR and effort required to maintain a given pace. In my opinion it's just as important to be able to feel that in ourselves as fitness and technique is. Some days you can push through a bit of a heavy feeling, some days you have to slow down or take an extra day off. Some days everything will align and you can post an incredible time. But none of that is possible without some self reflection.

[iain]

At some stage we are going to progress from newbies being told what to do to actual rowers who work it out for ourselves and that starts with an awareness of how each session leaves us feeling in the subsequent days. It may be trial and error to start, but if you go too hard and can't push fully on interval day then pull it back a bit next week. And vice versa.

But we aren't robots and there is no correct pace that applies every day. Things such as sleep and stress can affect HR and effort required to maintain a given pace. In my opinion it's just as important to be able to feel that in ourselves as fitness and technique is. Some days you can push through a bit of a heavy feeling, some days you have to slow down or take an extra day off. Some days everything will align and you can post an incredible time. But none of that is possible without some self reflection.

Good post. Personally I still struggle with this after many years as how you feel does not seem closely correlated to the fatigue it induces! I am "blessed" with a very high pain threshold. Great for getting the most of a finishing sprint, but makes assessing how maintainable a given pace will be longer term. As well as pain threshold reducing sensitivity (which is strongly influenced by endorphin release), other factors determine how we interpret a given "discomfort signal". When feeling positive this is a challenge and taken as a good sign at that point (Pete says that if you aren't doubting your ability to maintain pace at 40% in a TT you are going too slowly!), while on a less positive day it is all too hard and a signal to slow down.

The one other point I would add is to look ahead as well as backwards. If you have an interval session the next day you need to control the urge to go faster today. Personally I would rarely attempt to go above threshold (into AT for more than a min or so) more than twice a week and once when building base fitness. Although those in their youth may well recover quicker than I do (Pete at his peak in his 30's advocated 3 pretty much all out sessions a week, all be it of a modest weekly distance as he only rowed 6 hrs per week).

[PleaseLockIn]

Week 6 Day 2 - 3*2000m 4R

https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/98781852

Avg 2:03.9 split at r24, and I managed to see 199 HR in the 2nd interval despite myself slightly panicking on how high my HR (facepalm) was. At a higher stroke rate I can see a higher MHR especially if I felt great that day. Perhaps my real Max HR is in the 200-209 range after all... though I'd probably only get it if I felt exceptionally great at r24 or was racing, or got the stroke rate a lot higher.

At the 2nd interval, I felt energized, almost finishing, though I was panting hard and almost at my limit. My vision didn't pass out, and I felt I had somewhat more in me. Pretty decent, beating Nomark's time somehow. But it just shows how polarized training has helped me (slowing down the SS)

I also learnt how important it was not to prematurely speed up. Re Nomark: I think if you had simply held 2:03 for all the 2k you would've had a better average. The premature speeding up probably triggered your body to prematurely generate lactic acid, which further slowed you down.

What a nice session! I know I can push myself, ignoring the body telling me to slow down. I thought I would vomit and collapse but turns out I somehow stood up and my abs weren't too painful.

[iain]

https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/98781852

Avg 2:03.9 split at r24

At the 2nd interval, I felt energized, almost finishing, though I was panting hard and almost at my limit. My vision didn't pass out, and I felt I had somewhat more in me. Pretty decent, beating Nomark's time somehow. But it just shows how polarized training has helped me (slowing down the SS)

I also learnt how important it was not to prematurely speed up.

What a nice session! I know I can push myself, ignoring the body telling me to slow down. I thought I would vomit and collapse but turns out I somehow stood up and my abs weren't too painful.

Can't access your data as I think you have not made your log generally accessible. Post your comment on rep 2, how did rep 3 go?

You have an interesting take on what "nice" means to you! Basically like a 5k without the dread of staring at >2k to go when you feel you are approaching your limit!

Finally, feel free to take other's time into consideration when motivating you to perform, but ultimately all that matters is that we do our best and see improvement although this may be seen in months rather than days or weeks.

[Nomark]

At the 2nd interval, I felt energized, almost finishing, though I was panting hard and almost at my limit. My vision didn't pass out, and I felt I had somewhat more in me. Pretty decent, beating Nomark's time somehow. But it just shows how polarized training has helped me (slowing down the SS)

I also learnt how important it was not to prematurely speed up. Re Nomark: I think if you had simply held 2:03 for all the 2k you would've had a better average. The premature speeding up probably triggered your body to prematurely generate lactic acid, which further slowed you down.

What a nice session! I know I can push myself, ignoring the body telling me to slow down. I thought I would vomit and collapse but turns out I somehow stood up and my abs weren't too painful.

Wow. Incredible session, well done! Although all the talk of your vision narrowing and throwing up has me slightly worried But I guess it just means you are training closer to your limit which is as it should be I guess. Well done. 2:03 at r24 for over twenty minutes is a huge step towards your end goal if a sub 2:00 30r20. You'll get there, I'm sure of it.

I think you are right on my effort, but you learn more from failure than success as they say, so I'm not unhappy with it.

FYI, your logbook is private, so others can't see it on your link.