Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[Dangerscouse]

Few questions too:
- how did I not explode before when my HR was so high for so long?
- can I make more gain by injecting more watts instead of a higher SR
- 7:20 is my target for 2025, is it still possible?

HR is a strange thing, and IME doesn't always follow a linear and logical path. I've failed many sessions and HR had been under 90%, but I've also endured 95%+ for quite a while.

Watts is always a better way to improve as this is fundamentally what you're always trying to do: increase the power output. The big issue is that you're going to have a ceiling so it's not as easy as you'd hope, and the same is true with stroke rate too. Over a certain spm, your technique and ability to breathe effectively will break down, so it's probably the best idea to work on both.

7:20 is a really tough target judging by this workout, but that doesn't mean it's not possible, and it certainly doesn't mean that it's not worth fighting for.

[p_b82]

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
25:02.2 6,000m 2:05.1 178 914 26 166
8:32.0 2,000m 2:08.0 167 874 24 158
r: 4:00 17m
8:31.9 2,000m 2:07.9 167 874 25 165
r: 4:00 14m
7:58.2 2,000m 1:59.5 205 1004 30 177
r31m

Few lessons
- newbie's gain are still out there
- max HR topped 180 from 176 - so all my previous measurements were erroneous.
- SR increase allowed to maintain pace. I could maintain 30-32 SR, which I never did before

Few questions too:
- how did I not explode before when my HR was so high for so long?
- can I make more gain by injecting more watts instead of a higher SR
- 7:20 is my target for 2025, is it still possible?

My first HM I rowed, was at an average of 174 bpm; my max observed is around 190 ( so ~92% max average for 90+min). My pb 2k last week average was "only" 176bpm (180bpm+ in the last 750m ~95% max) - One just gets "used" to the discomfort of certain sessions.

I find 5/6K TT's typically see my HR higher than in a 2K though.

but as Stu says - HR isn't everything - I use it as a "nice to know" but not a limiting/defining factor in my training now - unless I'm purposefully doing something very low pace capped (like a FM).

I did my last 2k between 26-28spm (26 average by c2 maths) - on the day it was the sweet spot for me in terms of stroke efficiency and Oxygen demands.

As you settle into your stroke and get more comfortable with the higher power outputs, you'll likely find your own pace rate combo. Ideally you don't want to compromise your stroke (Wmin) too much to rate up - a little is fine, but not a big difference.

In terms of what's doable, take a look at the average power for the paces.

your 2:08 paced 2k's were 167W; the 2:00 was 205w to complete in 7:20 that's 1:50 pace & that's 263W

the pace difference of the 1st 2 is 8s but ~30w, the same 8s difference 2:00 (205w) ->1:52 (250w) is however 45w; those 2 extra seconds to go 7:20 is another ~25w

You may find it is better to target some stepping stones - my own next is 7:30....(long term aim is sub 7 before i'm 50 - so another 7 years - hopefully I manage it before then mind!)

[Joris]

Week 16 - Day 1 [10.5k]

For the previous five weeks, the distance always remained constant for this session, so that allowed me to lower my split time by one second each time (from 2:30 to 2:26).
This weeks session added back 500 meters, but since that felt like a small increase I still aimed for a split of one second faster again.
My average heart rate rose a bit (from 133 to 137), and I also felt that I was having a bit more trouble keeping up the faster pace, but all in all the session went smoothly again. Especially if I take into account that I may not have fully recovered from the previous day's interval session.
So for the other 10k session scheduled later this week, I will probably try to speed up a second again, aiming for 2:24.

Meantime I noticed in the concept 2 rankings that the median split for my age group (+ lightweight) is 2:08.3 and for the 25th percentile 2:15.7 on a 10k distance.
And although my above times are at steady state pace it seems that I still have a long way to go to climb up the ladder. Hopefully by the end of the BPP plan I can reach at least the 25th percentile. Since that's within 8 weeks, time will start running out quickly to go from 2:25 to 2:15.
On the other hand, I'm not going to overdo my SS-sessions and continue to focus on the interval sessions. If at the end of the plan I can do 12k at about 2:20 in steady state mode, then maybe I can target a personal best of 2:15 on a 10k distance?

[DJ1972]

In terms of what's doable, take a look at the average power for the paces.

your 2:08 paced 2k's were 167W; the 2:00 was 205w to complete in 7:20 that's 1:50 pace & that's 263W

the pace difference of the 1st 2 is 8s but ~30w, the same 8s difference 2:00 (205w) ->1:52 (250w) is however 45w; those 2 extra seconds to go 7:20 is another ~25w

You may find it is better to target some stepping stones - my own next is 7:30....(long term aim is sub 7 before i'm 50 - so another 7 years - hopefully I manage it before then mind!)

This required increase in power is something that I had not accounted for. I am now more aware of what it takes to achieve my ambitious target.
Target is still on but, as you said, with 'stepping stones. Anything in between is a positive outcome for me.

This endurance interval showed me where I can work from in terms of pace and sr/min and the 7x500 session later this week (week 10 of plan) will certainly be even more indicative.

[reuben]

Reuben, great to see the progress. Some people find splitting SS into 20', 5k or 6k intervals with say 2' rest helps. Better to take a short rest than allow the stroke to deteriorate.

Dang, this just makes too much sense to be true.

I was planning on dropping my 10k pace next week by 1-2s/500, but splitting it into two 5k pieces also makes sense. A 2 minute rest sounds about right to my newbie ears, as 3 minutes or longer would probably negate the endurance aspect of the session. Maybe Pete mentions this alternative somewhere and I just missed it.

I may be off base, but when I think of "steady state" sessions, I don't just think in terms of pace, spm, and watts. I also think "continuous" - no stops, no rests, minimal fluctuation of any sort. That may be fine for younger, fitter, more experienced rowers, but maybe not for me at this time, especially as the distance increases.

Question 1: What is "full 3:30 PP rests" I searched for phrases like "rowing PP" and didn't come up with anything that sounded right. I don't understan "PP".

Question 2: "rating" = spm?

For the record, and to answer Joris: I managed to do the 3x2k 4r today (23-24 spm) at the same pace as my 4x1.5k 3r two weeks ago (22-26 spm), which is 4s faster than my 3x2k 4r (22-24 spm) from 4 weeks ago. That last 1.5k though... it wasn't pretty. The lyric, "Hold on", from REM's Everybody Hurts comes to mind.

[iain]

I was planning on dropping my 10k pace next week by 1-2s/500, but splitting it into two 5k pieces also makes sense. A 2 minute rest sounds about right to my newbie ears, as 3 minutes or longer would probably negate the endurance aspect of the session. Maybe Pete mentions this alternative somewhere and I just missed it.

I may be off base, but when I think of "steady state" sessions, I don't just think in terms of pace, spm, and watts. I also think "continuous" - no stops, no rests, minimal fluctuation of any sort. That may be fine for younger, fitter, more experienced rowers, but maybe not for me at this time, especially as the distance increases.

Question 1: What is "full 3:30 PP rests" I searched for phrases like "rowing PP" and didn't come up with anything that sounded right. I don't understan "PP".

No Pete meant continuous. But other coaches have suggested the short rest approach and it is definitely a bad idea to row poor strokes in SS. We all have deterioration on hard intervals and all out TTs, but Pete does concur that a key part of the SS is improving the efficiency of your stroke.

The "Original" Pete Plan is the Lunchtime Plan that was at one time probably the most utilised C2 plan, aimed at optimising 2k. It is a simplification of the WP designed to fit into 6 1hr sessions a week. I think the BPP was initially devised as a way to be ready for the "full " PP. This includes a 3 weekly rotation of intervals (both "long" and "short"). The first interval session of each cycle is 8 x 500M with 3:30 rest between each.

[Nomark]

Meantime I noticed in the concept 2 rankings that the median split for my age group (+ lightweight) is 2:08.3 and for the 25th percentile 2:15.7 on a 10k distance.
And although my above times are at steady state pace it seems that I still have a long way to go to climb up the ladder. Hopefully by the end of the BPP plan I can reach at least the 25th percentile. Since that's within 8 weeks, time will start running out quickly to go from 2:25 to 2:15.
On the other hand, I'm not going to overdo my SS-sessions and continue to focus on the interval sessions. If at the end of the plan I can do 12k at about 2:20 in steady state mode, then maybe I can target a personal best of 2:15 on a 10k distance?

I think you are comparing apples and oranges trying to compare your steady state times with other people's time trials. If you can get your SS into the 25th percentile that will be phenomenal as it means a casual (ish) row for you is better than many people's bests. I think if you can do a 2:20 steady state you have a good chance of beating that 2:08 median time if you go all out. Definitely 2:10.

PS I'm nearly back from holiday and already thinking about rowing with a mix of excitement and trepidation. Definitely got the bug!

[Joris]

Week 16 - Day 3 [30min]
Like with other steady state sessions, I looked back to the last similar session, and if my heart rate was within my steady state zone (broadly 130-140) back than, I try to diminish my split by a second.
My last 30 minutes was at 2:22 - heart rate 137 so I rowed at 2:21 this time and ended up with an average heart rate of 140.
Since that's pretty much my self-defined upper band for steady state, I'll see next time if I try to go a little faster or if I do another session at 2:21.

Meantime I noticed in the concept 2 rankings that the median split for my age group (+ lightweight) is 2:08.3 and for the 25th percentile 2:15.7 on a 10k distance.
And although my above times are at steady state pace it seems that I still have a long way to go to climb up the ladder. Hopefully by the end of the BPP plan I can reach at least the 25th percentile. Since that's within 8 weeks, time will start running out quickly to go from 2:25 to 2:15.
On the other hand, I'm not going to overdo my SS-sessions and continue to focus on the interval sessions. If at the end of the plan I can do 12k at about 2:20 in steady state mode, then maybe I can target a personal best of 2:15 on a 10k distance?

I think you are comparing apples and oranges trying to compare your steady state times with other people's time trials. If you can get your SS into the 25th percentile that will be phenomenal as it means a casual (ish) row for you is better than many people's bests. I think if you can do a 2:20 steady state you have a good chance of beating that 2:08 median time if you go all out. Definitely 2:10.

Obviously steady state and time trials are not the same thing, but assuming that at least 10 seconds can still come off is also too ambitious in my opinion, at least for me. When I see how my heart rate, for example, is already way up at a 2:18 pace over 6.3km (see above) I think 2:15 might already be sufficiently ambitious for a 10k time trial. Anyway, only one way to find out and that is through doing a real time trial. But I'll probably wait for that until after the BPP plan.
Meanwhile, I also took a look at the rankings for the other distances and I saw that I already reached the 25th percentile for 1k and 2k (even though those sessions counted multiple reps) and that it should definitely feasible for 5k and 6k either if I would do a time trial. So for those distances I could perhaps already put forward the 50th percentile as a next objective.

PS I'm nearly back from holiday and already thinking about rowing with a mix of excitement and trepidation. Definitely got the bug!

Looking forward to the end of a vacation might also be a new experience?
Anyways, enjoy your last days!

[PleaseLockIn]

In terms of what's doable, take a look at the average power for the paces.

your 2:08 paced 2k's were 167W; the 2:00 was 205w to complete in 7:20 that's 1:50 pace & that's 263W

the pace difference of the 1st 2 is 8s but ~30w, the same 8s difference 2:00 (205w) ->1:52 (250w) is however 45w; those 2 extra seconds to go 7:20 is another ~25w

You may find it is better to target some stepping stones - my own next is 7:30....(long term aim is sub 7 before i'm 50 - so another 7 years - hopefully I manage it before then mind!)

This required increase in power is something that I had not accounted for. I am now more aware of what it takes to achieve my ambitious target.
Target is still on but, as you said, with 'stepping stones. Anything in between is a positive outcome for me.

This endurance interval showed me where I can work from in terms of pace and sr/min and the 7x500 session later this week (week 10 of plan) will certainly be even more indicative.

Since you have these newbie gains, and if you learn to push properly, breathe properly (great for me), and push to full failure (even to the point of passing out) you might get sub-7 in 2025. Just might. I know it's hard, but train, perhaps bulk up; maybe you will manage it. Good luck. If one didn't have aspiration, most of the things of humanity wouldn't be accomplished or done.

Quite a coincidence that I got the first two 2ks in 2:09 and then 2:07.x respectively. This is just under a 7Wmin stroke. I would suggest training the stroke to gradually build up to 10.15Wmin (2:00 at r20). Then if you learn to rate at low 30s without much reduction in stroke quality, you can break sub 7.

I didn't exactly do Week 3 Day 2, but I replaced it with something intense - 3' r20 with 1.5 min rest, and keep going until I am gone.
https://log.concept2.com/profile/2501432/log/98178716 the anomalous interval is me going to get water. I almost managed 11 intervals of 3' at 2:04.x r20. Guess that's what happens when you have a rower sitting next to you doing a similar workout.

As for my HR, when I got it to 194 my muscles were almost at their limit. My CV was pretty strained but still had room. I probably would only find my true rowing MHR in a high rate 2k/5k and only with extremely loud music, good fans and all the other rowers.

Overall, nice session. Learnt decent rowing technique, like breathing out - breathe out by expanding the sides. My connection at the start and the hips were terrible, and my core was too weak. Hopefully I can catch up in time.

[Nomark]

- 7:20 is my target for 2025, is it still possible?

Great session, well done. As for 7:20, who knows? But it will be fun to try!

I'm in a similar boat, so maybe we can push each other. I had a couple weeks off for holiday but week 10 starts next week if I'm not too jet lagged. I did the similar session in week 6 at 2:10/2:10/1:59, but might have lost some pace with the time off.

1:50 is an ambitious target so maybe break it into 2.5s goals and aim for 7:50, then 40, then 30. But I think at that point every second gained will be a struggle. Or try and get your 500m intervals down to 1:50 and then your 800s and 1000s

Shoot for the moon, if you fail, you'll still end up amongst the stars!

[p_b82]

Since you have these newbie gains, and if you learn to push properly, breathe properly (great for me), and push to full failure (even to the point of passing out) you might get sub-7 in 2025. Just might. I know it's hard, but train, perhaps bulk up; maybe you will manage it. Good luck. If one didn't have aspiration, most of the things of humanity wouldn't be accomplished or done.

I don't think it's good advice to tell any-one ever to exercise to the point of passing out; let alone people you don't know over the internet.

and "bulking up" has nothing to do with rowing prowess - targetting specific advantageous muscle groups on the other hand does help, but that isn't bulking up - that's strength training.

I would suggest training the stroke to gradually build up to 10.15Wmin (2:00 at r20). Then if you learn to rate at low 30s without much reduction in stroke quality, you can break sub 7.

Being able to row at 10+Wmin and being able to rate up also doesn't really have a direct link with a 2k in isolation. While factually correct there's so much more to it than that.

Just for some context to that comment...
I recently rowed a 500m pb with an average 10.9Wmin stroke (404W@r37). I've also hit 500W+ via rating up to 50spm and by using a higher Wmin ~12.4@42spm.

I'm more than capable of a 300w effort....but I can't sustain it for 7 mins.

[DJ1972]

Since you have these newbie gains, and if you learn to push properly, breathe properly (great for me), and push to full failure (even to the point of passing out) you might get sub-7 in 2025. Just might. I know it's hard, but train, perhaps bulk up; maybe you will manage it. Good luck. If one didn't have aspiration, most of the things of humanity wouldn't be accomplished or done.

Sub 7 is wishful thinking and this is far beyond my capabilities. However, I found in rowing the right exercise to maintain and now increase my fitness, any target is useful whilst keeping in mind the main objective.

Great session, well done. As for 7:20, who knows? But it will be fun to try!

I'm in a similar boat, so maybe we can push each other. I had a couple weeks off for holiday but week 10 starts next week if I'm not too jet lagged. I did the similar session in week 6 at 2:10/2:10/1:59, but might have lost some pace with the time off.

1:50 is an ambitious target so maybe break it into 2.5s goals and aim for 7:50, then 40, then 30. But I think at that point every second gained will be a struggle. Or try and get your 500m intervals down to 1:50 and then your 800s and 1000s

Shoot for the moon, if you fail, you'll still end up amongst the stars!

I prefer to take it slowly to avoid injury. I had full surgery 3 years ago after my achille's tendon ruptured completely on my left foot. I don't want that to happen on my right foot. Hence I will take 1 s or 1/2 s at a time until I reach my peak. 'Our patience will achieve more than our force.'

The "Original" Pete Plan is the Lunchtime Plan that was at one time probably the most utilised C2 plan, aimed at optimising 2k. It is a simplification of the WP designed to fit into 6 1hr sessions a week. I think the BPP was initially devised as a way to be ready for the "full " PP. This includes a 3 weekly rotation of intervals (both "long" and "short"). The first interval session of each cycle is 8 x 500M with 3:30 rest between each.

As Iain quotes, BPP will allow me to go on to the Original PP if I can finally complete BPP in about 13 weeks. I will then try a few cycles of the OPP to see the outcome. Eventually, I would move on to the longer distance - 5k where I have in mind a <20 min. I am at 20min43.

[DJ1972]

Week 10.5
[7 x 500m / 2min rest] – Look back to week 7 when you last tried this session. Aim to row the first 6 reps at the same average pace you managed last time, and then go faster for the final rep.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
13:31.2 3,500m 1:55.8 225 1073 29 167
1:56.9 500m 1:56.9 219 1054 28 158
r: 2:00 17m
1:57.0 500m 1:57.0 219 1052 28 163
r: 2:00 16m
1:57.1 500m 1:57.1 218 1050 29 167
r: 2:00 16m
1:56.9 500m 1:56.9 219 1054 29 169
r: 2:00 19m
1:57.0 500m 1:57.0 219 1052 29 169
r: 2:00 20m
1:57.2 500m 1:57.2 217 1048 29 170
r: 2:00 17m
1:49.1 500m 1:49.1 270 1227 35 177
r105m

I was not feeling great after a day of work and still 'digesting'. Target was 1:57. Very satisfied except for the Pace. Too fast in my opinion. I will need to inject more Watts eventually (which I don't have). I am thinking some strength training eventually.

Week 11 has 8x500 with advice from Pete: same pace. Should I try 1:56? Going ahead of the plan and then stalling ?

[Nomark]

Week 11 has 8x500 with advice from Pete: same pace. Should I try 1:56? Going ahead of the plan and then stalling ?

I find the short turn arounds quite tough to improve times on. The beginning of Week 7 to the end of week 10 is almost a month so that's a big potential for improvement. Week 11.2 is in 2-3 days. How much faster can you do today's piece in *plus* an extra rep?

Your last rep shows you had plenty in the tank, so 1.56 might be doable, just don't be surprised if the last rep this time is much closer to the rest - which is actually better overall in my opinion. There is a small chance that you might also find you have nothing in the tank for the last rep and go slower but I'm sure you'll be fine!

[alex9026]

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
13:31.2 3,500m 1:55.8 225 1073 29 167
1:56.9 500m 1:56.9 219 1054 28 158
r: 2:00 17m
1:57.0 500m 1:57.0 219 1052 28 163
r: 2:00 16m
1:57.1 500m 1:57.1 218 1050 29 167
r: 2:00 16m
1:56.9 500m 1:56.9 219 1054 29 169
r: 2:00 19m
1:57.0 500m 1:57.0 219 1052 29 169
r: 2:00 20m
1:57.2 500m 1:57.2 217 1048 29 170
r: 2:00 17m
1:49.1 500m 1:49.1 270 1227 35 177
r105m

I was not feeling great after a day of work and still 'digesting'. Target was 1:57. Very satisfied except for the Pace. Too fast in my opinion. I will need to inject more Watts eventually (which I don't have). I am thinking some strength training eventually.

Week 11 has 8x500 with advice from Pete: same pace. Should I try 1:56? Going ahead of the plan and then stalling ?

You're well on track for 1:56. The above averaged 1:55.8. Typically, you'd want to increase pace or add another set. As the program calls for the latter, I'd set out at sub 1:56 and empty the tank on the last set. If you're feeling good, maybe push 1:55 last couple of sets.