One O'Clock Position

[fastrack1966]

Been grappling with the virtues of leaning forward to one o'clock lean for some time. I assume the idea is to lengthen the stroke. However for whatever reason, too much excess on the waist? - it is not easy. Not managed to video myself yet but in order to lean more I've taken to leaning forward with my knees apart at the end of the glide.
Certainly it seemed to increase my speed on the per 500 meters reading, but no surprise that I've felt a bit of RSI in my right knee. Before I do any more damage does anyone else resort to the "knees open lean" to get nearer the flywheel? Of course I could lose some weight but after 16 gym sessions this month I've not budged an ounce

[ahooton]

I understand what you’re doing and I do exactly the same on short sprints and at the end of a rate 20 workout. Certainly not something to train as usual technique though. I’d try to steer clear of that as it’s poor and inefficient technique, not to mention increasing risk of injury not only inner legs but also back.

Keeping your back straight, lean as far forward as is comfortable. Over reaching will only tire you out quicker and to lose weight you need to spend more time on the erg.

People with far more expertise and knowledge than I will gladly further advise. Good luck.

[MPx]

Been grappling with the virtues of leaning forward to one o'clock lean for some time. I assume the idea is to lengthen the stroke. However for whatever reason, too much excess on the waist? - it is not easy. Not managed to video myself yet but in order to lean more I've taken to leaning forward with my knees apart at the end of the glide.

Agree with Anthony - dont force the lean, keep the back straight, core locked, arms straight and maximise the leg push - that's where the greater part of the performance will come from. All the other bits add something but you're compromising the strongest part with the leg spread, better to give up on some of those niceties and maximise the catch/drive.

... 16 gym sessions this month I've not budged an ounce

Obvious when you look at the numbers....but you can't exercise away a bad diet. One of my Steady State sessions I often do is an 8k r20 at about 2:05 pace - takes over 33 mins and I know I'm working. My fitness app counts that as 500 kCals. I can eat that in a tenth of the time. Just sayin...

Keep it going - make it part of what you do and it will get better and you'll feel better - best of luck

[Tsnor]

common real world question

some solutions, dark horse is more conservative.
dark horse --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpSfL3CFtA
training tall --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJEgtM3t2Y

Also, if you are heavy and even somewhat active your legs are STRONG. Focus on good form when you go full out rowing to avoid elbow and back problems.

[Sandeman]

I have similar problems, gut too big, can't reach as far as I could have if I would have been in good shape
I can't separate my knees for two reasons. Firstly my legs are too long, my legs/knees are between my arms at the catch and secondly my hips suck (hypermobile) so that would hurt.
And as others said, it will cost you power.
I try to keep my back straight and just don't reach so far. If you go reaching further your back will round (at least for me it does) and you will hurt your back.

[p_b82]

If you can't see yourself in a mirror, or record a quick clip, it can also feel like you are struggling to get to 1 o'clock, but it is not actually that far forward an angle.
Not wanting to say whether your gut it too large, but are you sure you're also not over compressing at the catch & taking shins beyond vertical?

If you're trying to go too far, you might be making this situation worse - stroke length isn't everything.

(I accidentally discovered by almost hopping off the back of my seat recently, that even at half slide, if I rate up to 50spm I can still hit 500W - really inefficient, but nice to know it could in a way too)

[fastrack1966]

Thanks Everyone I'll bear all this in mind..........
50spm!!
This brings me to my next point but I'll leave it in the same topic:
At 5 feet 9 inches 13 Stone I am a middleweight stuck in the H category. Taking a simplistic view this means to increase my speed and or wattage I should:
1) Raise the force of each stroke - pull harder?!
2) Raise the stroke rate.
Obviously 1) is partly a product of rower's weight, so is my only choice to opt for 2)? I've experimented with stroke rates of 25 to 35 and not surprisingly the midway point produces a respectable speed with "least discomfort" if that is a phrase suitable for this sport.
I achieved 8m 39s for recently over 2Kms aged 72. I used the erg app and nearly every stroke was between 28-32 spm.

[iain]

Thanks Everyone I'll bear all this in mind..........
50spm!!
This brings me to my next point but I'll leave it in the same topic:
At 5 feet 9 inches 13 Stone I am a middleweight stuck in the H category. Taking a simplistic view this means to increase my speed and or wattage I should:
1) Raise the force of each stroke - pull harder?!
2) Raise the stroke rate.
Obviously 1) is partly a product of rower's weight, so is my only choice to opt for 2)? I've experimented with stroke rates of 25 to 35 and not surprisingly the midway point produces a respectable speed with "least discomfort" if that is a phrase suitable for this sport.
I achieved 8m 39s for recently over 2Kms aged 72. I used the erg app and nearly every stroke was between 28-32 spm.

Weight doesn't directly help on the erg, it may feel that you are leaning back and so using weight to move the handle, but to 11 O'clock the main component is still horizontal and you have to lift the weight back up between strokes anyway! What does matter is strength. A rowers weight needs to be supported by them and so they will naturally be increasing strength for the same movements relative to lighter rowers. As your muscles/tendons etc. get used to rowing and learn to produce a consistent quality stroke you should find that the work you can consistently produce with each stroke will increase. This is particularly true if there are any major technical inefficiencies that can be ironed out. Examples are where part of the leg drive is not transmitted to the handle at the start of the stroke by starting with bent arms that straighten under the leg load, or where some of the force is used to rotate forward so the seat moves further than the handle.

Developing a strong stroke is best done at a lower rating. The drive should be the same, but you go really slowly back up the slide to give you time to breathe and recover from the effort exerted in the drive. Your 2k is credited by C2 as utilising about 850 kCal/hr, but of that 300 is there estimate of the calories that do not go into the handle, some 35%. While not acknowledged by the estimates given by the machine, the work moving your body through the stroke increases with the cube of the rating. So slowing from 30 strokes a minute to 20 reduces this inefficiency (as it doesn't get recorded as increased "useful" work) is reduced by 70%! So you will go slower, but your ability to go longer will increase more and it should allow you to row for longer and burn more calories. It also gives you more time to concentrate on the quality of your stroke.

I would echo the comment above about how far you can get forward with your knees together. There are rowers who do have that problem, but unless you have a very slight build, your stomach is probably a similar size to the average as plenty of people your height are carrying several stones more. What your lean weight is will depend on your body shape and you might be able to gain a small amount, but this should not require a major variation in your stroke.

You describe raising the force of the stroke as "pulling harder". Firstly you need to think of the rowing stroke as more pushing than pulling. Secondly you should be aiming for a sustained force through the stroke so rather than snatching at the catch, you accelerate the handle throughout the stroke. It is the average force applied that matters not the maximum. The comments above are about pushing smarter rather than harder. I find that in most rows I pull several strokes that are 2-3S/500m weaker than normal even after 24,000,000M due to them being sloppy (in my case mainly a combination of not straightening my arms fully and dropping them at the catch so that the start of the drive is utilised raising them to straight and in line with the chain and losing about 3 inches of the stroke). I have no idea how strong you are and therefore how strong a stroke you could produce. But if you divide the watts produced by the rating you get a measure of the "useful" work done in each stroke. So the average 160W on your 2k would equate to 5.3WMin if you averaged 30 Strokes/Min. Maintaining 30S/Min as a newbie is an impressive achievement, but I suspect that you could raise the work per stroke significantly over time.

I suspect few 70 year olds rate much higher than 30 strokes per minute on a 2k, so I would concentrate on trying to increase the work per stroke. You will then find that it is harder to maintain the 30 strokes per minute as each stroke will take more out of you and it is then that you may need to work on getting your rating back to the 30 you used. Higher stroke rates can be maintained for short distances and so are typically used for te first few strokes to get the flywheel moving and at the end (possibly compensating for reduced work per stroke in latter stages as well as a "sprint, perhaps with a shorter slide at the end, but these are details).

I look forward to hearing how you get on and congratulate you for getting through such a long post.

Good luck.

[fastrack1966]

Thanks Iain truly a marathon post and very useful. I've been on the ergs since the early '90's, I think it could take me another 30 years to implement all that.

[Tsnor]

to increase my speed and or wattage I should:
1) Raise the force of each stroke - pull harder?!
2) Raise the stroke rate.

Depends on the distance.

For 100m pull harder and up the stroke rate.

For 10K increase training duration to build aerobic capability which probably means pulling less hard and using a lower stroke rate)

Also depends how soon you need results. If your targeting something in 4-6 weeks then go harder, that's not enough time to move your aerobic base but plenty of time to build vo2max and improve your times across the board. If you are thinking of improvement over the next year or two then definitely look to improve your aerobic base first.

[fastrack1966]