Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[Dangerscouse]

Could also be feet too low.

Yeah, i didn't think of that.

[Nomark]

You're overcompressing at the catch, and the momentum carrying you forward is then working against you as you then push off.

Also make sure that you're keeping the handle low enough, as if the trajectory is a bit too high you'll naturally not ground yourself which could also be a factor. Low enough is a question of small degrees, so don't think it needs to be dramatic.

Could also be feet too low.

Thank you both for the tips. It could actually be all of that! It did feel like my momentum was still heading forwards and then I'd snap a bit too quickly. My hands also tend a bit high, especially when my stroke breaks down a bit at higher rates - didn't realize this could cause problems.
I'll check some videos and compare my foot position in case it's too low. I think I can see what you mean, if feet are too low I'll be pushing myself up off the seat rather than backwards.

Holding the 2:20.6 was uncomfortable enough that as I head into the longer rows I think I'm going to keep them at the 2:22. Obviously I had gas left in the tank but I don't want to end every long row drained.

This has been my constant issue with steady state which took me about 6+ weeks to sort out, starting too slow, then going too fast and pulling back just a little. I think I've found a happy pace now finally. Obviously we could do it faster but we aren't supposed to otherwise we would be permanently exhausted. But how slow is too slow? Sounds like you are figuring it out though. Plus our fitness has room to improve and the plan really helps with that, so while 2:20 might be too fast now, it could be perfect in a months time. Just have to take it week by week, I guess. This comment isn't turning out as helpful as I anticipated... lol

[PleaseLockIn]

You're overcompressing at the catch, and the momentum carrying you forward is then working against you as you then push off.

Also make sure that you're keeping the handle low enough, as if the trajectory is a bit too high you'll naturally not ground yourself which could also be a factor. Low enough is a question of small degrees, so don't think it needs to be dramatic.

Could also be feet too low.

Thank you both for the tips. It could actually be all of that! It did feel like my momentum was still heading forwards and then I'd snap a bit too quickly. My hands also tend a bit high, especially when my stroke breaks down a bit at higher rates - didn't realize this could cause problems.
I'll check some videos and compare my foot position in case it's too low. I think I can see what you mean, if feet are too low I'll be pushing myself up off the seat rather than backwards.

Holding the 2:20.6 was uncomfortable enough that as I head into the longer rows I think I'm going to keep them at the 2:22. Obviously I had gas left in the tank but I don't want to end every long row drained.

This has been my constant issue with steady state which took me about 6+ weeks to sort out, starting too slow, then going too fast and pulling back just a little. I think I've found a happy pace now finally. Obviously we could do it faster but we aren't supposed to otherwise we would be permanently exhausted. But how slow is too slow? Sounds like you are figuring it out though. Plus our fitness has room to improve and the plan really helps with that, so while 2:20 might be too fast now, it could be perfect in a months time. Just have to take it week by week, I guess. This comment isn't turning out as helpful as I anticipated... lol

How slow is too slow? When the HR is below 55% of the HRR it goes below UT2. I do my steady rows below my UT2, at a very comfortable pace. Mine is 27:07 5k R20 this time, which is bonkers. However, I was very tired, and I tried to keep my HR below 160. There was no cardiac drift so that was decent.

If I don't feel motivated at all but want to finish it, I just "Screw it" and go for the row regardless of pace.

Somehow, my steady state watts are ~40-45% of my previous 2k PB. But people are different. My HR seems to run hot but with little cardiac drift. My steady state keeping below 160 HR is surprisingly slow, but my PBs are much faster.

I would train very slowly, trying to keep HR below 160. It would be useful for me later, as I know my issue is probably base fitness and not strength. After the BPP I plan to do a lot of steady state for the final push. I assume by then I would have enough power to hold 1:59 30r20, the issue would be fitness.

[Citroen]

How slow is too slow? ... Mine is 27:07 5k R20 this time, which is bonkers.

That is too slow. You should be doing 5K in closer to 20:00 even at R20.

Don't let HR control your rowing, you won't achieve anything like that. Look at HR after the workout to see how your did, not the other way round.

[PleaseLockIn]

How slow is too slow? ... Mine is 27:07 5k R20 this time, which is bonkers.

That is too slow. You should be doing 5K in closer to 20:00 even at R20.

To be fair, I used my Apple Watch, which overestimated my HR, but still... plugging in my numbers, I tried to keep my HR down, and that just didn't work.

As I barely got sub 8 2k at r28 some time ago. I might try a TT later... but after I finish other priorities in life.

[iain]

I don't think we can predict others time without specific rowing data. But SS should still feel like work. Only after 5.5mm of rowing since I started back in a sorry state have I finally reached the point that I can maintain a decent stroke on SS at R20. Before this lead to significant HR drift. On SS you are trying to increase your stroke volume so make the heart work hard while not overly stressed. I found stroke volume was so low when I restarted that even 80% HR was a low RPE. I would say monitoring HR gives an insight into recovery and current status, but only really by comparing to your previous numbers, all of the %ages etc. are broad guides only, so you can't take them as being appropriate for you.

[Nomark]

How slow is too slow? ... Mine is 27:07 5k R20 this time, which is bonkers.

That is too slow. You should be doing 5K in closer to 20:00 even at R20.

I don't think that is a helpful comment and may encourage bad training behaviors. This is a beginners thread and we are talking about steady state. There is no such thing as too slow (within reason, it's not like he took 90 minutes!). I did 6k in 29 minutes a few weeks ago @23, which is in the same ball park as PLI and it was a good session for me.

[dmuskett]

How slow is too slow? ... Mine is 27:07 5k R20 this time, which is bonkers.

That is too slow. You should be doing 5K in closer to 20:00 even at R20.

I don't think that is a helpful comment and may encourage bad training behaviors. This is a beginners thread and we are talking about steady state. There is no such thing as too slow (within reason, it's not like he took 90 minutes!). I did 6k in 29 minutes a few weeks ago @23, which is in the same ball park as PLI and it was a good session for me.

I have seen comments like this before in other places. People don't understand that everyone is different. I note that for people in my age rank (40s, heavyweight) the 50th percentile (non steady state) on a 5k is over 20 minutes. I don't understand any suggestion that beginners should be doing a 5k in 20 minutes, much less on a steady state style row.

[Dangerscouse]

That is too slow. You should be doing 5K in closer to 20:00 even at R20.

I don't think that is a helpful comment and may encourage bad training behaviors. This is a beginners thread and we are talking about steady state. There is no such thing as too slow (within reason, it's not like he took 90 minutes!). I did 6k in 29 minutes a few weeks ago @23, which is in the same ball park as PLI and it was a good session for me.

I have seen comments like this before in other places. People don't understand that everyone is different. I note that for people in my age rank (40s, heavyweight) the 50th percentile (non steady state) on a 5k is over 20 minutes. I don't understand any suggestion that beginners should be doing a 5k in 20 minutes, much less on a steady state style row.

FWIW, I really doubt that I'd have been able to achieve close to 5k in 20 mins as a newbie. I generally don't aim for that pace at r20 even nowadays.

It's been many years so I can't recall for certain what I was rowing at, but I fully endorse that newbies should be as slow or fast as they are, assuming that they're doing everything correctly with the relevant intensities for each type of session

[Sakly]

In the end there is no too fast or too slow in pace perspective. Everyone has a different starting point, different body type and different technique. So noone can estimate a target pace for someone who is starting this thing called indoor rowing.

I am in my 40s and already was when I started. I could pull a sub 18:30 5k on the first try. But I was already training for several years and had a fairly good stamina. My training partner (training the same stuff for at least 7 years, he played tennis on a high level as well, same body type/size/weight, but stronger than me) would never be able to pull that even now, despite already having trained a several times on the erg. And he is 7 years younger than me. His 2k is over 30s slower than mine.
All I want to say is: even looking at two similar people, the outcome can be so much different.

[dmuskett]

4.1 Pete said: "6500m – You should be getting the idea with these session now, 500m more each week, aiming for the same pace. These two sessions are the core of your training at the moment, and in a few weeks time you’ll realise just how much improvement you’ve made."

As I mentioned last week, I have decided to try to keep my longer rows to 18 SPM and 2:22 for the moment. Today I set out for the first time in my rowing life (all of 4 months) to keep as consistent of a pace as possible - and it's difficult!

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
30:45.9	6,500m	2:21.9	122	720	18	152
6:09.1	1,300m	2:21.9	122	721	19	143
6:08.9	2,600m	2:21.8	123	721	18	152
6:09.4	3,900m	2:22.0	122	720	18	154
6:09.3	5,200m	2:22.0	122	720	19	156
6:09.2	6,500m	2:22.0	122	720	19	159

Obviously not UT2 steady state happening here, but it felt like a pretty good row. The SPM eaked up a bit to 19 at the end as it was harder to make the strokes as strong as they were earlier. At my first shot at the BPP I only made it through this week, so I can see that I did my 6500 rows last time at 2:21.6 and 2:20, but just looking at the HR I can tell I was giving it a lot more effort.

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November 05, 2024 18:08:00
Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
30:20.1	6,500m	2:20.0	128	738	18	158
6:04.7	1,300m	2:20.2	127	736	19	148
6:07.0	2,600m	2:21.1	124	728	18	156
6:06.0	3,900m	2:20.7	125	731	18	159
6:04.6	5,200m	2:20.2	127	736	18	164
5:57.9	6,500m	2:17.6	134	761	19	167

Feels like a happy medium between a too slow (to me) UT2 effort and pushing myself hard enough that it makes it more difficult to get on the rower. Intervals are for pushing and pain, long rows are for just rowing. Speaking of which, 4.2 is supposed to be 3x1000 w/ 3 minutes rest - I'm gonna push that to 3.4 because I have rest days imposed on me by life on Wednesday and Thursday, so I'll do 4.3 and 4.4 on Sunday and Monday and then push real hard on the intervals Tuesday morning. I don't see why this would mess with the plan, but if I'm wrong someone let me know.


Edited to add: I tried to get this row at 2:22.0. Looking at the log, this row put me at 222,220 lifetime meters. Such a shame I came in at 2:21.9 instead!

[Nomark]

Feels like a happy medium between a too slow (to me) UT2 effort and pushing myself hard enough that it makes it more difficult to get on the rower. Intervals are for pushing and pain, long rows are for just rowing. Speaking of which, 4.2 is supposed to be 3x1000 w/ 3 minutes rest - I'm gonna push that to 3.4 because I have rest days imposed on me by life on Wednesday and Thursday, so I'll do 4.3 and 4.4 on Sunday and Monday and then push real hard on the intervals Tuesday morning. I don't see why this would mess with the plan, but if I'm wrong someone let me know.

Well done. Looks like a Goldilocks steady state. Not too easy and not too hard. And evenly paced too which is hard. That's exactly how I feel about the too different workouts. Steady state should be very doable and intervals should be on the line. I also do some workouts out of order depending on whether I feel like SS or intervals. I don't think it matters as long as you are rested for intervals and aren't doing them back to back.

I just started week 9 today. 9.1 9k. It didn't go as well as I'd hoped. I had a couple of days off after intervals on Thursday, so rest shouldn't have been an issue, and I'd been itching to get back to the erg so it wasn't motivation either. It just felt like an off day. It was hard keeping to 2:20 and my splits kept dropping. My stroke rate was too high. And my lower back also hurt most of the way through which was worrying. Urgh.
Maybe I've overdone it lately in the sprints or too much volume too soon is catching up on me, or picked up a bad habit, but I just wasn't feeling it today. On the plus side I did 9k at a decent clip which is the furthest I've ever done. 4x800 tomorrow unless I have a day off. Will see how I feel. I have an enforced break for 2 weeks at the beginning of Feb due to a holiday and it is starting to sound ideal!

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	S/M	
42:34.3	9,000m	2:21.9	122	23
8:21.8	1,800m	2:19.3	129	22
8:23.0	3,600m	2:19.7	128	23
8:32.6	5,400m	2:22.3	121	23
8:42.7	7,200m	2:25.1	114	24
8:34.2	9,000m	2:22.8	120	23

[p_b82]

And my lower back also hurt most of the way through which was worrying. Urgh.
Maybe I've overdone it lately in the sprints or too much volume too soon is catching up on me, or picked up a bad habit, but I just wasn't feeling it today.

I don't have the greatest of lower backs, and mine was sore for my first 6 months of rowing fairly constantly, so I'd not be too worried about a one off if that's what this ends up being.

However it might be a sign that either:

• You're rounding your lumbar spine a bit at the catch trying to over-reach a touch

this would put your lower back in a weak position during the leg drive

• You're slightly out of sequence and opening your back before the end of the leg drive

this would cause your back to be doing more work than it's used to - against higher forces in the sprints.

One or both might be adding the fatigue you're seeing.

[Joris]

Meanwhile, it has been about two weeks since I posted about my progress, so high time for a little update.

* Week 12 - Day 3 [3 x 10min / 2min rest]: With 2:20 I paced this session in between steady state and interval training. With my heart rate staying in the UT1 zone (but often nearing AT), I think this was a good pace for me.

* Week 12 - Day 4 [8000m]: I'm slowly speeding up my steady state sessions on this distance, coming from 2:30, next two times at 2:28, than three times at 2:27 and this session at 2:26. Average heart rate didn't raise on this last session, so I can probably go on with 2:25 next time.

* Week 12 - Day 5 [4 x 800m / 2min rest]: In week 9 I did these at 2:00, so I aimed at 1:59 this time, expecting a relatively easy interval session, with the possibility of doing a faster last rep. Unfortunately I overestimated myself, because I had to give it all to achieve 1:59. I highly doubt I will be able to maintain the same pace for the next interval session of 4 x 1000m as Pete suggests. Either I make an attempt anyway, to test if I can push my limits, but at the real risk of not meeting my target, or I set a target that is a tiny bit slower. I'll see how I feel at the start of that next interval session. But I must admit that this is the first time I am not looking forward to a next session.

* Week 13 - Day 1 [10000m]: As with the 8k's, I'm slowly speeding up my steady state sessions on this distance, coming from 2:30; next 2:29 and now 2:28. My average heart rate raised from 132 to 138 when dropping to 2:29, but this time it stayed more or less the same at 137 when dropping further to 2:28, so I will probably try 2:27 next time.

* Week 13 - Day 3 [2 x 15min / 2min rest]: after having moved some heavy stuff at home, I ended up with a pain in my shoulder. I picked out this session to figure out if I could continue with the plan or not. With a 2:20 pace and a similar average heart rate as during the 3 x 10min session it turned out rather well but I wasn't able to pull hard with my arms and I felt a constant pain. The pain didn't really deteriorate, but it didn't get better neither and I didn't enjoy the rowing. That's why I decided to give it a rest for a few days, and this weekend I did some indoor cycling instead.
Meantime my shoulder feels better, but with the pain not completely away and with 3 soccer events coming up this week, I might do it easy for another week.

[Nomark]

I don't have the greatest of lower backs, and mine was sore for my first 6 months of rowing fairly constantly, so I'd not be too worried about a one off if that's what this ends up being.

However it might be a sign that either:

• You're rounding your lumbar spine a bit at the catch trying to over-reach a touch

this would put your lower back in a weak position during the leg drive

• You're slightly out of sequence and opening your back before the end of the leg drive

this would cause your back to be doing more work than it's used to - against higher forces in the sprints.

One or both might be adding the fatigue you're seeing.

Thanks. I don't have the best posture so it's probably an area that needs strengthening and having done almost 250k metres in the past couple of months may have been a little bit too much too soon. But I also need to be a bit more mindful of my stroke and not tune out with TV just yet as I don't have the muscle memory to maintain a good stroke yet. I will keep an eye on both of your suggestions. I will also not be so cavalier about warm ups before intervals from now on!

Decided to go for Week 9.2 today. I could feel my back but it wasn't bad at all. Did a 1k warm up and then it was 4x800m, 2r. Pete recommended a second quicker than last time (1:59.7). But since I'd done a 3x1000m recently at 1:56.3 I decided to push it a little and aim for 1:56. It went well although it was tough and I ended up in a heap afterwards, but my back was fine which makes me think when I'm conscious of my stroke I'm ok. I also didn't have the seat hopping problem I had last time. I kept my hands a bit lower just in case and no issues.

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	S/M	
12:21.1	3,200m	1:55.7	225	29
3:05.5	800m	1:55.9	225	30
3:05.4	800m	1:55.9	225	28
3:05.8	800m	1:56.1	224	29
3:04.3	800m	1:55.1	229	30