Sub 20 s/m hate

[Dpoleit89]

Hello to all!

I have picked rowing as cross training for xc skiing 2 months ago.
I read some articles online about rowing training (very similar to xc ski) but one thing that I hate is ut2 training at 18-22 s/m.
I get really tired and it feels like a chore.
If I keep 22-24 s/m for ut2, i go much faster (~5 sec) for the same hr. Why?
Is it because I’m much better on the aerobic side than strength side?

I’m 183cm for 86kg or 6ft and 189lbs for my imperial friends.

[MPx]

Your stats show that you have started your journey with an exceptionally well developed aerobic capacity. It is less likely that you will have all of the muscles that are needed for rowing developed to that level - rowing is a very specific set of movements. So in a relative sense its a yes to aerobic over strength....but don't get hung up on that. Its much quicker to acquire the necessary strength than it is aerobic capacity! Unless wanting to specialise in the short sprints, the brute force end of strength isn't required. Low rate work is intended to develop a more powerful stroke - allowing longer recovery between repeated efforts so you can keep going for longer. But if you are satisfied that you have a reasonable stroke form then, counter intuitively, I'd suggest that including some short hard intervals into your training will also benefit the stroke power that you will then have available while doing UT2. Basically its just training you to do a more powerful stroke - but (for me!) more fun on hard intervals than endless UT2.

[Dpoleit89]

Your stats show that you have started your journey with an exceptionally well developed aerobic capacity. It is less likely that you will have all of the muscles that are needed for rowing developed to that level - rowing is a very specific set of movements. So in a relative sense its a yes to aerobic over strength....but don't get hung up on that. Its much quicker to acquire the necessary strength than it is aerobic capacity! Unless wanting to specialise in the short sprints, the brute force end of strength isn't required. Low rate work is intended to develop a more powerful stroke - allowing longer recovery between repeated efforts so you can keep going for longer. But if you are satisfied that you have a reasonable stroke form then, counter intuitively, I'd suggest that including some short hard intervals into your training will also benefit the stroke power that you will then have available while doing UT2. Basically its just training you to do a more powerful stroke - but (for me!) more fun on hard intervals than endless UT2.

Specific as every sport for sure!
While I’m not following blindly any plan, I do speed intervals from Pete plan once per week, just to improve 2k. Every other workout, 2 to 3, I do ut2.
Need an enormous aerobic base due to my race needs, 2h30 to 5h but I need to vary in training that’s why I pick rowing.

[iain]

Every other workout, 2 to 3, I do ut2.

Need an enormous aerobic base due to my race needs, 2h30 to 5h but I need to vary in training that’s why I pick rowing.

Clearly if your focus is elsewhere then you need to tailor rowing accordingly. BUt AIUI BPP was designed to transition unfit rowers into 2k training so that they could manage the main PP lunchtime plan. Pete is not a fan of UT2 training and believes that the SS should be at UT1. I would say that if you want to substitute UT2, then someone with your base fitness should be rowing >45min and preferably 1hr+ on SS for maximum effect as this ensures that faster muscle fibres are recruited (at lower intensities we default to slow fibres and these often have sufficient stamina to perform the vast majority of the work for 45min beyond which they start to tire and so the other fibres start to be recruited more regularly. I assume that for XC Skiing there are significant uphill sections that will need more fibres so training all would be beneficial. Personally I do not believe the ratings are right for everyone. If most people (especially those the BPP was originally designed for) rate 26 with a reasonable stroke then they will tire themselves too much. BUt if you are fully recovered the next day and are not compromising your stroke then this may well be right for you.

[Dpoleit89]

Every other workout, 2 to 3, I do ut2.

Need an enormous aerobic base due to my race needs, 2h30 to 5h but I need to vary in training that’s why I pick rowing.

Clearly if your focus is elsewhere then you need to tailor rowing accordingly. BUt AIUI BPP was designed to transition unfit rowers into 2k training so that they could manage the main PP lunchtime plan. Pete is not a fan of UT2 training and believes that the SS should be at UT1. I would say that if you want to substitute UT2, then someone with your base fitness should be rowing >45min and preferably 1hr+ on SS for maximum effect as this ensures that faster muscle fibres are recruited (at lower intensities we default to slow fibres and these often have sufficient stamina to perform the vast majority of the work for 45min beyond which they start to tire and so the other fibres start to be recruited more regularly. I assume that for XC Skiing there are significant uphill sections that will need more fibres so training all would be beneficial. Personally I do not believe the ratings are right for everyone. If most people (especially those the BPP was originally designed for) rate 26 with a reasonable stroke then they will tire themselves too much. BUt if you are fully recovered the next day and are not compromising your stroke then this may well be right for you.

Actually my rowing workouts are 3 60-70’ easy, like under 75% hr and 1 speed workout, for 2k.
Going under 20 s/m tires me more than going 22/24…
If I do a easy session going with avg 18 s/m, I average 2:04/2:07, with avg 22 s/m I average 1:59/2:03, same heart rate.

[Sakly]

Every other workout, 2 to 3, I do ut2.

Need an enormous aerobic base due to my race needs, 2h30 to 5h but I need to vary in training that’s why I pick rowing.

Clearly if your focus is elsewhere then you need to tailor rowing accordingly. BUt AIUI BPP was designed to transition unfit rowers into 2k training so that they could manage the main PP lunchtime plan. Pete is not a fan of UT2 training and believes that the SS should be at UT1. I would say that if you want to substitute UT2, then someone with your base fitness should be rowing >45min and preferably 1hr+ on SS for maximum effect as this ensures that faster muscle fibres are recruited (at lower intensities we default to slow fibres and these often have sufficient stamina to perform the vast majority of the work for 45min beyond which they start to tire and so the other fibres start to be recruited more regularly. I assume that for XC Skiing there are significant uphill sections that will need more fibres so training all would be beneficial. Personally I do not believe the ratings are right for everyone. If most people (especially those the BPP was originally designed for) rate 26 with a reasonable stroke then they will tire themselves too much. BUt if you are fully recovered the next day and are not compromising your stroke then this may well be right for you.

Actually my rowing workouts are 3 60-70’ easy, like under 75% hr and 1 speed workout, for 2k.
Going under 20 s/m tires me more than going 22/24…
If I do a easy session going with avg 18 s/m, I average 2:04/2:07, with avg 22 s/m I average 1:59/2:03, same heart rate.

I assume it is because you are highly adapted to high rate low(er) effort strokes from skierg training and your metabolism can handle that perfectly. Increasing the load for the muscles and decreasing rate at the same time is something your body isn't so well adapted to.
I don't see any problem, use a higher rate, if it feels comfortable

[Dpoleit89]

Clearly if your focus is elsewhere then you need to tailor rowing accordingly. BUt AIUI BPP was designed to transition unfit rowers into 2k training so that they could manage the main PP lunchtime plan. Pete is not a fan of UT2 training and believes that the SS should be at UT1. I would say that if you want to substitute UT2, then someone with your base fitness should be rowing >45min and preferably 1hr+ on SS for maximum effect as this ensures that faster muscle fibres are recruited (at lower intensities we default to slow fibres and these often have sufficient stamina to perform the vast majority of the work for 45min beyond which they start to tire and so the other fibres start to be recruited more regularly. I assume that for XC Skiing there are significant uphill sections that will need more fibres so training all would be beneficial. Personally I do not believe the ratings are right for everyone. If most people (especially those the BPP was originally designed for) rate 26 with a reasonable stroke then they will tire themselves too much. BUt if you are fully recovered the next day and are not compromising your stroke then this may well be right for you.

Actually my rowing workouts are 3 60-70’ easy, like under 75% hr and 1 speed workout, for 2k.
Going under 20 s/m tires me more than going 22/24…
If I do a easy session going with avg 18 s/m, I average 2:04/2:07, with avg 22 s/m I average 1:59/2:03, same heart rate.

I assume it is because you are highly adapted to high rate low(er) effort strokes from skierg training and your metabolism can handle that perfectly. Increasing the load for the muscles and decreasing rate at the same time is something your body isn't so well adapted to.
I don't see any problem, use a higher rate, if it feels comfortable

I was thinking the same, my sport background is ranging from alpine climbing to running and now Xcskiing (and skierg) so never did low cadence sports.

[Sakly]

I was thinking the same, my sport background is ranging from alpine climbing to running and now Xcskiing (and skierg) so never did low cadence sports.

For me it's more or less the opposite
Coming from a strength training background, combined with different other stuff over the years, I was more used to lower cadence stuff, but also well adapted to long sessions. So my first HM was intuitively at r20 and ~1:56 splits.
How different bodies work

[Tsnor]

Cycling Cadence is like SPM.

Many people studied cadence (steady state and hillclimb) and found.... there is no optimal cadence. Different people do better at much higher and much lower cadence. No pattern at all, even looking at tour de France riders on hillclimb - no "typical" cadence.

Use the Stroke per minute that work for you. If you see faster splits at lower heart rate for same distance at higher SPM then higher SPM is what you should use.

[jamesg]

I get really tired and it feels like a chore.
18 s/m, I average 2:04/2:07, with avg 22 s/m I average 1:59/2:03,

In Power terms:

2:04-2:07 is 184-171W, so at 18, a stroke average worth almost 10W-min.
1:59-2:03 is 208-188W, so at 22, stroke average 9 W-min.

The heavier stroke at the lower rate requires a higher handle force; which it seems is making itself felt in long pieces.

Seen another way:
Increasing rate from 18 to 22 is 20% difference; but
Power from 171-184 (177 average) to 188-208 (198 av) is 12% difference.

The heavier stroke may need to be trained; but that type of work is not UT2 recovery.

There can be technique problems too. If for any reason your stroke is short, or not sequenced correctly, or if using high drag, then forces increase.

[Dangerscouse]

Going under 20 s/m tires me more than going 22/24…
If I do a easy session going with avg 18 s/m, I average 2:04/2:07, with avg 22 s/m I average 1:59/2:03, same heart rate.

I'm the same. I've always felt more comfortable at higher stroke rates, and it's been an effort over quite a long time to train lower stroke rates. For example, the difference between my first ever 30r20 and my current PB is circa 450m and it's about four years apart.

From my experience it is a slow grind to get used to it, but it's not absolutely essential to get used to it. Having said that, if it feels like too much of an effort then it's always something I'd recommend getting better at, although that will be over a long period of time with relatively slower progress

[Dpoleit89]

@tsnor: yeah I read some articles on cycling cadence at Tour de France.
@jamesg: well my technique is far from perfect. At the beginning I was using DF 110/120 and my stroke was choppy, sometimes missing a good catch. Now I use DF 130 and my stroke is smoother than before.
@dangerscouse: maybe next spring I will work on low stroke power, now my workout’s energy is directed towards xcski.

Thanks to all guys