New Concept2 Machine Teaser – Reveal Tomorrow?

[Ombrax]

I'm not in the market for one because I already have a Dyno. If I didn't I'd consider buying one.

[Slidewinder]

Let's hear from others. Are you excited about the StrengthErg? No wishy-washy, "I think it will appeal to a certain...etc."
Are you excited about the StrengthErg?

[drbol]

Heck yes! Take my money please! I will be ordering one.

[JaapvanE]

I will be ordering one.

It is an interesting device indeed, but I'm still undecided. The lack of eccentric load is both a con and a pro for me. Let me explain my thinking.

The lack of eccentric load provides safety, which is interesting in itself at this point in my life. Let's take the bench press as an example excercise. I used to use the olympic bar. Decades ago, I had an incident where my training buddy was more interested in the girls in the bar than my safety, so I ended up stuck. Recently, I did a bench press with dumbells and my right shoulder locked up, opening my hand in a reflex, so I had to turn away from one falling 36kg dumbell, just to be dragged down to the ground by the other. I must say, I'm not looking forward to the bench press at the moment, despite over 35 years of training experience. Key issue is that with free weights, once the load is on your muscles, there is no turning back. With this machine, this isn't the case: stopping releases the load, which adds safety.

It does so at the cost of training effectiveness, as in my old school routine it indeed is 2/3 of the excercise. But, given the risk of injury and me getting older, it might be an acceptible trade-off in the future as it allows me to train without worries.

However, C2 isn't alone in this space. Virtruvian offers a more flexible electronically controlled platform for twice the price. But if offers highly intelligent de-loading (i.e. remove the load when needed), does support eccentric load and has a much smaller footprint. And it requires 2kW powersupply.

Or I could just go to a gym where supervision is more of an actual thing, rather than the vague concept it is in my current one.

These are choices we face when getting older.

[Slidewinder]

The lack of eccentric load provides safety...

An eccentric load can be a safety issue with weights, but not with a flywheel-based or piston-based exercise machine.

As I wrote in yesterday's post, since the time of Leonardo da Vinci, a mechanism has been known that enables a flywheel to be continuously driven in one direction via an alternating push force and a pull force. Therefore, C2 could have built a flywheel-based strength-building exercise machine with both concentric and eccentric loading. More, to such a machine C2 could have included lever selection to choose between concentric or eccentric loading, or both. But why bother? It is much simpler to build a piston-based machine that can include push/pull loading with complete safety. Also, as explained in yesterday's post, flywheel resistance has no advantage over piston (hydraulic or pneumatic) resistance at such slow reps and high-resistance, so nothing is gained by the added complexity of a flywheel system.

[JaapvanE]

[flywheel resistance has no advantage over piston (hydraulic or pneumatic) resistance at such slow reps and high-resistance, so nothing is gained by the added complexity of a flywheel system.

In my experience, it does, as hydraulic systems completely suck from a user perspective as it is way too static. That is the reason no reputable fitness machine manufacturer uses it: because it is an absolute horrible user experience. I don't know how a flywheel feels in this setup (although I used to row on a NordicTrack with an absurd high dragfactor), but it absolutely can't be worse then hydraulic resistance.

And it is physically impossible to provide eccentric load other then by an active netto force (gravity or electric). Please note that an eccentric load is not an opposite concentric load. That is what makes Virtruvian and the like so smart: they measure tension at 50Hz and are capable of simulating any load at any point to 200Kg, but release the load if something happens.

[Tsnor]

@Citroen or other mod.

Maybe time to open a product category for StrengthErg similar skierg and bikeerg and oars.

[Citroen]

@Citroen or other mod.

Maybe time to open a product category for StrengthErg similar skierg and bikeerg and oars.

I don't have the powers, but that's a good idea.

[Citroen]

@Citroen or other mod.

Maybe time to open a product category for StrengthErg similar skierg and bikeerg and oars.

I don't have the powers, but that's a good idea.

Paul H has set-up https://c2forum.com/viewforum.php?f=48 for the StrengthErg folks.

[Slidewinder]

Please note that an eccentric load is not an opposite concentric load.

It seems that I was mistaken. In that case I change my criticism to this: On the StrengthErg, to change from a pulling load to a pushing load it is necessary to fit the supplied pushing frame into a front socket and secure by tightening a knob. This operation would not be necessary if C2 had utilized known mechanics to drive the flywheel continuously in one direction via an alternating pull force and push force - and provide a lever selector to choose the desired loading in one rep - pull force alone, push force alone, or both in one rep. Apparently, as you state, this pushing and pulling does not meet the definition of concentric and eccentric loading. Nevertheless, it would be a much more elegant package.

At this writing there have been more than 1000 views of this thread - people wanting to see this soon to be available new C2 product. Only one person, 'drbol', has expressed unqualified enthusiasm for the StrengthErg. 'Ombrax' wrote that if he didn't already own the Dyno he would 'consider' the StrengthErg. Given the response, here and elsewhere, if I were Concept 2 I would be reconsidering the plans to go forward with this.

[gvcormac]

More positive impressions in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=209138

Weights (whether machine or free) are bulky and expensive and dangerous when used near 1-rep max.

Hydraulics would need to be coupled with strain gauges to measure effort; the Erg has this already.

Weights have (whether machine or free) have a certain amount of inertia; hydraulics have almost none.

Weights have almost no friction; hydraulics have friction that increases with speed.

Hydraulics aren't create at dissipating the energy they absorb. As they heat they lose resistance, and eventually the fluid boils.

Magnetic load might be viable; it doesn't change much with velocity, and has little friction or inertia.

All in all, I'd like to try the StrengthErg. Even on a RowErg you can do several sets of ten-to-twenty max effort pulls and get a decent strength effect. But no substantial leg press or arm push.

[JaapvanE]

At this writing there have been more than 1000 views of this thread - people wanting to see this soon to be available new C2 product. Only one person, 'drbol', has expressed unqualified enthusiasm for the StrengthErg. 'Ombrax' wrote that if he didn't already own the Dyno he would 'consider' the StrengthErg. Given the response, here and elsewhere, if I were Concept 2 I would be reconsidering the plans to go forward with this.

You really are a glass half empty person aren't you?

But this approach to statistics is complete BS, especially as no-one asked "Would you buy one" until one of the last posts. And with this price, no sane person would buy one and just see what it is: people need to experience it before they will buy. Same goes for the ski-erg for me: I absolutely am in the market for it, but I want to try before I buy first, despite many positive reviews.

[drbol]

Heck yes! Take my money please! I will be ordering one.

I guess my sarcasm was not picked up by some. It seems interesting, but I already have a Bikeerg and rower. My next purchase will be a skierg down the road.

[Tsnor]

@Citroen or other mod.

Maybe time to open a product category for StrengthErg similar skierg and bikeerg and oars.

I don't have the powers, but that's a good idea.

Paul H has set-up https://c2forum.com/viewforum.php?f=48 for the StrengthErg folks.

Maybe a bit more setup required, or some server needs to recycle for me to see it.

You do not have the required permissions to view or read topics within this forum.

[Sakly]

I don't have the powers, but that's a good idea.

Paul H has set-up https://c2forum.com/viewforum.php?f=48 for the StrengthErg folks.

Maybe a bit more setup required, or some server needs to recycle for me to see it.

You do not have the required permissions to view or read topics within this forum.

Same was for me, but now working.

Probably would make sense to shift the existing strength erg threads to this section.