Display for avg/500m

[Ombrax]

Thinking about what muscles you are using is a distraction. You want to yank the handle back as hard as you can as far as you can, without losing your balance at the end.

But we all know that it's more complicated than that, otherwise "be sure you get your technique right" wouldn't be the first and most important thing newbies are told here.

[gvcormac]

Thinking about what muscles you are using is a distraction. You want to yank the handle back as hard as you can as far as you can, without losing your balance at the end.

But we all know that it's more complicated than that, otherwise "be sure you get your technique right" wouldn't be the first and most important thing newbies are told here.

Let me be more clear: I think that almost all of that advice is misplaced. It is received wisdom, to be sure, but is it useful? I'm not so sure. First and foremost, do it.

[Dangerscouse]

Let me be more clear: I think that almost all of that advice is misplaced. It is received wisdom, to be sure, but is it useful? I'm not so sure. First and foremost, do it.

Surely, that's far too reductive to suggest yank the handle back as far as you can to newbies?

If it was that easy why do we see the the overwhelming majority of people in gyms rowing with terrible technique / shooting the slide / rowing at r40+ but a pace of 3:00+ / splaying their legs / damper setting at 10. If you're left to make your own decisions, you'll just do what seems right but is usually undeniably wrong in so many ways.

I'm always very willing to challenge accepted wisdom, but technique is something that is very hard to argue against.

[hikeplusrow]

Thinking about what muscles you are using is a distraction. You want to yank the handle back as hard as you can as far as you can, without losing your balance at the end.

But we all know that it's more complicated than that, otherwise "be sure you get your technique right" wouldn't be the first and most important thing newbies are told here.

Let me be more clear: I think that almost all of that advice is misplaced. It is received wisdom, to be sure, but is it useful? I'm not so sure. First and foremost, do it.

I must say that, clearly contrary to others' experiences, I've never been able to create an isolated mind-leg connection whilst erging. For me, the drive is a process of transition where the hip pivot simply takes over from the leg drive. I know the legs are working, but, in my mind, I can't isolate that feeling. It should feel like the legs feel in a squat - but it doesn't. Perhaps I should do some drills that focus on the legs.

[Dangerscouse]

I must say that, clearly contrary to others' experiences, I've never been able to create an isolated mind-leg connection whilst erging. For me, the drive is a process of transition where the hip pivot simply takes over from the leg drive. I know the legs are working, but, in my mind, I can't isolate that feeling. It should feel like the legs feel in a squat - but it doesn't. Perhaps I should do some drills that focus on the legs.

I assume you've tried the alternating legs suggestion, and are you imagining jumping horizontally? Maybe try the alternations with 80-85% power instead? I'll be surprised if you don't 'get it' if you increase the power differential, but it's not absolutely guaranteed, but it might also just need a bit more time to ingrain it

I'd also increase the drag factor. Probably not by a lot, but enough to notice the difference.

[Sakly]

But we all know that it's more complicated than that, otherwise "be sure you get your technique right" wouldn't be the first and most important thing newbies are told here.

Let me be more clear: I think that almost all of that advice is misplaced. It is received wisdom, to be sure, but is it useful? I'm not so sure. First and foremost, do it.

I must say that, clearly contrary to others' experiences, I've never been able to create an isolated mind-leg connection whilst erging. For me, the drive is a process of transition where the hip pivot simply takes over from the leg drive. I know the legs are working, but, in my mind, I can't isolate that feeling. It should feel like the legs feel in a squat - but it doesn't. Perhaps I should do some drills that focus on the legs.

Completely on your side.
For me it's a fluent blending movement, much more similar to a deadlift than a squat. Looking at the joint angles in a deadlift compared to a squat it is more equal to what happens on the rowErg.
Also never feel isolated muscles or can focus on a single part. For me the movement started to feel natural right from the start and I never did any drills (not meaning they are useless, but I never did any). Tweaked some details over time, but now not hugely different like at the start (no evidence for that, but at least it feels very similar ).

[gvcormac]

Let me be more clear: I think that almost all of that advice is misplaced. It is received wisdom, to be sure, but is it useful? I'm not so sure. First and foremost, do it.

Surely, that's far too reductive to suggest yank the handle back as far as you can to newbies?

If it was that easy why do we see the the overwhelming majority of people in gyms rowing with terrible technique / shooting the slide / rowing at r40+ but a pace of 3:00+ / splaying their legs / damper setting at 10. If you're left to make your own decisions, you'll just do what seems right but is usually undeniably wrong in so many ways.

I'm always very willing to challenge accepted wisdom, but technique is something that is very hard to argue against.

I said pull harder. I didn't say anything about pulling farther. My C2 has a pictogram that shows how to row. When I started rowing on a Model D in the gym 30 years ago, there was a similar pictogram on the wall. That was sufficient for me.

https://cormack.uwaterloo.ca/con2.jpg

I challenge your assertion that the overwhelming majority of rowers have terrible technique.
Children seem to be able to do it. Maybe the people you see in the gym are trying to follow instructions they don't understand. Like leaning way back to try to extend their stroke, as you allude to. Certainly some people do strange things like bending their knees too soon on recovery. It looks awkward, and they probably won't win any races with that technique, but what's the harm?

Also, most row too hard and become exhausted and discouraged. So my number one advice is to row as gently as you like and get comfortable with the equipment.

I can't count the number of reviews that discourage people from rowing by saying it is too technical, or that they need super skill just to be able to do it.

[hikeplusrow]

Let me be more clear: I think that almost all of that advice is misplaced. It is received wisdom, to be sure, but is it useful? I'm not so sure. First and foremost, do it.

I must say that, clearly contrary to others' experiences, I've never been able to create an isolated mind-leg connection whilst erging. For me, the drive is a process of transition where the hip pivot simply takes over from the leg drive. I know the legs are working, but, in my mind, I can't isolate that feeling. It should feel like the legs feel in a squat - but it doesn't. Perhaps I should do some drills that focus on the legs.

Completely on your side.
For me it's a fluent blending movement, much more similar to a deadlift than a squat. Looking at the joint angles in a deadlift compared to a squat it is more equal to what happens on the rowErg.
Also never feel isolated muscles or can focus on a single part. For me the movement started to feel natural right from the start and I never did any drills (not meaning they are useless, but I never did any). Tweaked some details over time, but now not hugely different like at the start (no evidence for that, but at least it feels very similar ).

Completely agree. It is, of course, more like a deadlift than a squat.

[Dangerscouse]

I said pull harder. I didn't say anything about pulling farther. My C2 has a pictogram that shows how to row. When I started rowing on a Model D in the gym 30 years ago, there was a similar pictogram on the wall. That was sufficient for me.

https://cormack.uwaterloo.ca/con2.jpg

I challenge your assertion that the overwhelming majority of rowers have terrible technique.
Children seem to be able to do it. Maybe the people you see in the gym are trying to follow instructions they don't understand. Like leaning way back to try to extend their stroke, as you allude to. Certainly some people do strange things like bending their knees too soon on recovery. It looks awkward, and they probably won't win any races with that technique, but what's the harm?

Also, most row too hard and become exhausted and discouraged. So my number one advice is to row as gently as you like and get comfortable with the equipment.

I can't count the number of reviews that discourage people from rowing by saying it is too technical, or that they need super skill just to be able to do it.

If your reference to 'as far as you can' relates to distance it's a moot point as it's not relevant, along with 'yank the chain' as you also are saying to row as gently as you like

If anyone has bothered to search for, and post to this forum that implicitly confirms a desire to learn and do it correctly. Surely it's remiss of us just to suggest that it's simple?

As for the discouragement posts, I've never read one. As an example, driving a car is technical, and you wouldn't tell someone anything different, but with training dedication and practice, it becomes natural and automatic. Imo, this perfectly sums up every post I've ever read about technicality.

There's no avoiding the fact that it is difficult to row fast and for a long time. Why would anyone try and say anything different? Working hard isn't something that should be a deterrent, especially to someone who is willing and able to learn.

[hikeplusrow]

I must say that, clearly contrary to others' experiences, I've never been able to create an isolated mind-leg connection whilst erging. For me, the drive is a process of transition where the hip pivot simply takes over from the leg drive. I know the legs are working, but, in my mind, I can't isolate that feeling. It should feel like the legs feel in a squat - but it doesn't. Perhaps I should do some drills that focus on the legs.

I assume you've tried the alternating legs suggestion, and are you imagining jumping horizontally? Maybe try the alternations with 80-85% power instead? I'll be surprised if you don't 'get it' if you increase the power differential, but it's not absolutely guaranteed, but it might also just need a bit more time to ingrain it

I'd also increase the drag factor. Probably not by a lot, but enough to notice the difference.

Thanks, I'll try all those suggestions

[dabatey]

For me rowing technique seems reasonably fluent and intuitive (instead of legs/hips/arms). My hips certainly seem to open long before my legs are finished Sure my technique's got more refined as time went but that happened more when pushing for splits during interval training. I don't think 'just pull it(push it)' is that bad an idea for most, but could be an injury causer for some uncoordinated folks.

I think maybe most of the loads of folks pulling wrongly in the gym are a combo of:
1. Using it as warm up and don't care about technique or efficiency.
2. Folk that haven't done much exercise in their lives and are rather uncoordinated as a result.
3. Anyone setting the damper to 10 deliberately or not moving it from 10 as no idea about it.

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks, I'll try all those suggestions

Just for the avoidance of doubt, feeling your legs in the stroke isn't essential and won't be something that you'll really notice normally (I don't) but it's a great way of knowing what it should feel like and ingraining the movement into your automated system.

As Sascha says it's not really a squat, and if your legs are strong enough & your engaging them properly there's nothing to worry about, but if you feel like you're too upper body dominant then this is a great drill to use. I'm now wondering if your hiking experience is relevant?

[hikeplusrow]

Thanks, I'll try all those suggestions

Just for the avoidance of doubt, feeling your legs in the stroke isn't essential and won't be something that you'll really notice normally (I don't) but it's a great way of knowing what it should feel like and ingraining the movement into your automated system.

As Sascha says it's not really a squat, and if your legs are strong enough & your engaging them properly there's nothing to worry about, but if you feel like you're too upper body dominant then this is a great drill to use. I'm now wonder in if your hiking experience is relevant?

I guess I'm expecting a similar feeling to what I'd experience when pedaling, seated, up a steepish hill. The upper body is braced and still, and all the power is being directed through the quads. The feeling of that full engagement, that burning. Of course, the difference is that with cycling the legs are being used independently, and the action is performed more frequently.

[dabatey]

Thanks, I'll try all those suggestions

Just for the avoidance of doubt, feeling your legs in the stroke isn't essential and won't be something that you'll really notice normally (I don't) but it's a great way of knowing what it should feel like and ingraining the movement into your automated system.

As Sascha says it's not really a squat, and if your legs are strong enough & your engaging them properly there's nothing to worry about, but if you feel like you're too upper body dominant then this is a great drill to use. I'm now wonder in if your hiking experience is relevant?

I guess I'm expecting a similar feeling to what I'd experience when pedaling, seated, up a steepish hill. The upper body is braced and still, and all the power is being directed through the quads. The feeling of that full engagement, that burning. Of course, the difference is that with cycling the legs are being used independently, and the action is performed more frequently.

I thought the same at first and was perplexed. My quads get nothing compared to cycling unless I am doing fast intervals. Its nearly all arse and hamstrings for the legs. Much closer to deadlift than squat.

[Dangerscouse]

I guess I'm expecting a similar feeling to what I'd experience when pedaling, seated, up a steepish hill. The upper body is braced and still, and all the power is being directed through the quads. The feeling of that full engagement, that burning. Of course, the difference is that with cycling the legs are being used independently, and the action is performed more frequently.

Oh no, it's very rarely, if ever, anything even close to that ime. It's quite a subtle connection, but you just know that you're engaging the legs properly. If you do the alternating power that i suggested, you'll get something more like what you're referring to, but it's still no way near as bad.

I don't suffer much at all from lactic acid build up, unless it's a really intense effort, so my experience might be misleading.