Coming back to rowing after a hiatus, but with much better fitness

[Big J]

Hi all,

I have decided to come back to indoor rowing after 3.5yrs away from the sport.

I had a model D that i pretty enthusiastically used back in 2020/2021 for about 4 months off the back of some weight training and during the COVID lockdowns (in the UK).

For a newbie, I was very fast. But I was 120kg back then and I'm 203cm. I went into it with a lot of strength but low cardio fitness. A 1:16.06.5 half marathon was my best achievement.

In April 2022, I took up road cycling (I'd competed as a kid - I'm 40 now) and since then have done over 1200hrs and 31000km. A lot of gravel riding in there too, as we live in Sweden now.

Winters here are obviously pretty snowy, and whilst o maintained over 1000km a month all through winter, getting threshold and VO2 max training in can be tricky.

So this is where the rower comes back in.

I am now 101kg, VO2 max of about 64-65, FTP 410w. I'm especially strong on 2-6 minute efforts due to the nature of the hills around us.

But what I really enjoyed on the rower was longer efforts. My HM remains one of my proudest sporting moments.

Two questions:

1) how should I ease back into it to avoid injury? I have maintained strength training, and I have 80% of my strength compared to when I was 120kg. My fitness is extremely high. I did find rowing aggravated my shoulders sometimes but that is probably a form issue, but I'm conscious that I don't want to go too hard, too quickly.

2) I really like the HM distance. The world record for my age group is around 1:11. 3 years ago I was five minutes off. Given the 1200hrs of pretty focused cycling in the intervening period, do I have a realistic shot at it? I love cycling, and it'll always be my primary sport, but I am physiologically built to row. It would be cool to have a go at the WR and my employer has said they'd consider sponsoring me (ie, buying the rower for me) in tjat attempt.

I know that 5 minutes is substantial, but i only tried the distance once, and at 120kg, i was carrying way more muscle than was needed.

Thoughts, musings and reality checks are gratefully appreciated!

[iain]

I am so far away from your performance best to wait for other's opinion. But to start the ball rolling:

The increase in pace requires 23% more power than before. I would suspect that you have lost significant strength and this is likely to decrease the work per stroke that you can produce. The impact on your HM time of this will depend upon whether you were rowing an "easy" stroke at 1:16 and so have the strength to maintain a higher proportion for as long. Your increased fitness may allow you to increase the rating that you can maintain. However, unless you rated <25 strokes per minute for the earlier attempt, I would be surprised if the difference is enough. Also while being lighter will reduce the energy used to move your weight along the rail that might allow you to increase rating by about 6% for the same energy expenditure, this is somewhere short of what is required.

That all said, most people find they can increase the efficiency of their stroke over a few years rather than a few months, sop0 there might be some gains there. That said, your time is excellent so this suggests that there aren't huge gains to be had there. I expect that you would need a significant period of dedicated training to know for sure, likely to be > a year given the magnitude of the task. But you may have an inkling after a few months.

Good luck

IAin

[Dangerscouse]

I know that 5 minutes is substantial, but i only tried the distance once, and at 120kg, i was carrying way more muscle than was needed.

Thoughts, musings and reality checks are gratefully appreciated!

Hhmm. My first HM was about 1:21, so I managed to shave off circa five minutes, so in at least a very basic sense it might be possible, but that clearly excludes the sheer increase in power required for your target.

Without a doubt your first, and only, HM is a very strong result, but that WR is probably done by a former Olympian. That doesn't mean you couldn't beat it, but it's worth bearing that in mind.

Your background and your current fitness regime are all excellent, so I'd say give it a go, and to be honest if you got it down to only halfway there, that would still be a phenomenal result. I'd fully expect that 1:13.xx is possible for you.

When you say rowing aggravated your shoulders, do you think it was the rotator cuff? It's never been an issue for me, so I'm wondering if your weight training was the primary source of the issue and the rowing just tipped it over the edge?

[deadlifting265]

Hi all,

I have decided to come back to indoor rowing after 3.5yrs away from the sport.

I had a model D that i pretty enthusiastically used back in 2020/2021 for about 4 months off the back of some weight training and during the COVID lockdowns (in the UK).

For a newbie, I was very fast. But I was 120kg back then and I'm 203cm. I went into it with a lot of strength but low cardio fitness. A 1:16.06.5 half marathon was my best achievement.

In April 2022, I took up road cycling (I'd competed as a kid - I'm 40 now) and since then have done over 1200hrs and 31000km. A lot of gravel riding in there too, as we live in Sweden now.

Winters here are obviously pretty snowy, and whilst o maintained over 1000km a month all through winter, getting threshold and VO2 max training in can be tricky.

So this is where the rower comes back in.

I am now 101kg, VO2 max of about 64-65, FTP 410w. I'm especially strong on 2-6 minute efforts due to the nature of the hills around us.

But what I really enjoyed on the rower was longer efforts. My HM remains one of my proudest sporting moments.

Two questions:

1) how should I ease back into it to avoid injury? I have maintained strength training, and I have 80% of my strength compared to when I was 120kg. My fitness is extremely high. I did find rowing aggravated my shoulders sometimes but that is probably a form issue, but I'm conscious that I don't want to go too hard, too quickly.

2) I really like the HM distance. The world record for my age group is around 1:11. 3 years ago I was five minutes off. Given the 1200hrs of pretty focused cycling in the intervening period, do I have a realistic shot at it? I love cycling, and it'll always be my primary sport, but I am physiologically built to row. It would be cool to have a go at the WR and my employer has said they'd consider sponsoring me (ie, buying the rower for me) in tjat attempt.

I know that 5 minutes is substantial, but i only tried the distance once, and at 120kg, i was carrying way more muscle than was needed.

Thoughts, musings and reality checks are gratefully appreciated!

The British rec for the 30/39 is 1.09.53.3 by Graham Benton and the world rec is 1.07.22.7 by Conlin Mccabe.....

Personally at the structure you are and the above aforementioned, I would work on the 2km seeing as this is THE distance for championships, bragging rights etc

[hikeplusrow]

FTP 410 watts. Kudos.

[Big J]

I am so far away from your performance best to wait for other's opinion. But to start the ball rolling:

The increase in pace requires 23% more power than before. I would suspect that you have lost significant strength and this is likely to decrease the work per stroke that you can produce. The impact on your HM time of this will depend upon whether you were rowing an "easy" stroke at 1:16 and so have the strength to maintain a higher proportion for as long. Your increased fitness may allow you to increase the rating that you can maintain. However, unless you rated <25 strokes per minute for the earlier attempt, I would be surprised if the difference is enough. Also while being lighter will reduce the energy used to move your weight along the rail that might allow you to increase rating by about 6% for the same energy expenditure, this is somewhere short of what is required.

That all said, most people find they can increase the efficiency of their stroke over a few years rather than a few months, sop0 there might be some gains there. That said, your time is excellent so this suggests that there aren't huge gains to be had there. I expect that you would need a significant period of dedicated training to know for sure, likely to be > a year given the magnitude of the task. But you may have an inkling after a few months.

Good luck

IAin

Thank you for the kind encouragement and long reply. I enjoy stats, too, so good to get some figures on the power increases needed.

So the pace that I believe I need to comfortably go under the 40-49 WR for a HM is 1:41 which according the calculator attached to this forum is 339w.

339w for 71 minutes is no problem at all for me on the bike, so the question is, how much can I carry over from cycle FTP to rower FTP.

I have lost some strength of course (I suspect that the 20kg weight loss is about 12kg muscle and 8kg fat), but I'm still really strong for a cyclist. 160kg deadlift, 100kg bench, 80kg push press (wish I could squat still but a slightly fragile R patella tendon discourages that, and with all the cycling, I just don't bother). Cardio was always the limiting factor for me, not strength, and I suspect that I'm still stronger than I need to be.

Technique efficiency is I think where the final chunk of time will come from. I feel that I might be half way there already with current fitness, but obviously, it gets harder and harder the closer you get to the goal.

[Big J]

Hhmm. My first HM was about 1:21, so I managed to shave off circa five minutes, so in at least a very basic sense it might be possible, but that clearly excludes the sheer increase in power required for your target.

Without a doubt your first, and only, HM is a very strong result, but that WR is probably done by a former Olympian. That doesn't mean you couldn't beat it, but it's worth bearing that in mind.

Your background and your current fitness regime are all excellent, so I'd say give it a go, and to be honest if you got it down to only halfway there, that would still be a phenomenal result. I'd fully expect that 1:13.xx is possible for you.

When you say rowing aggravated your shoulders, do you think it was the rotator cuff? It's never been an issue for me, so I'm wondering if your weight training was the primary source of the issue and the rowing just tipped it over the edge?

Thank you for the encouragement!

You are correct on the shoulder diagnosis. It was a combination of rotator cuff but also a bit of impingement from shoulder instability. I don't think that the weight training was the primary cause, but I've had minor shoulder issues from time to time throughout my life.

My resistance training has been different though the last year (I started that again properly about a year ago - we moved from the UK to Sweden the year before, so maintaining the cycling through that was enough of an effort). I still have all the barbells and dumbbells but tend to train at work now with resistance bands (I run a machine line at a large sawmill and much of my work is supervising computer displays, so I have time).

I train 2-3 times a week for what would be an hour or so if done continuously, but tends to stretch out over a couple of hours. I have placed a lot of focus on rowing movements for that entire time, and my shoulders and rotator cuffs too. The whole shoulder area has developed substantially, so I'm hoping that will give me a good base to go back into rowing with.

[Big J]

The British rec for the 30/39 is 1.09.53.3 by Graham Benton and the world rec is 1.07.22.7 by Conlin Mccabe.....

Personally at the structure you are and the above aforementioned, I would work on the 2km seeing as this is THE distance for championships, bragging rights etc

I'm looking at the 40-49 record now as I'm a few years older, but I am sure that I'm very much faster.

I totally take your point on the 2km. It's basically what I have been religiously training for on the bike (I love a good KOM (king of the mountain on Strava) and have loads and loads of them in the area around my home) but I always enjoyed the longer efforts on the rower. The pacing strategies were a source of fun for me, and I nearly always got progressively quicker to the end.

[Big J]

FTP 410 watts. Kudos.

Thank you!

I've only recently gotten an accurate measure of that, with a week in Norway and some very long climbs. I put out more power on hills than on the flat, but I'm working on the latter.

I've only started doing threshold work in the last few months really, since starting a time trial race series here. I am a much better short burst hill climber than FTP rider.

Hoping to get it up to 450w before I'm 45 (5 years). Should be doable as it's going up fairly quickly at the moment and it would only be 4.5w/kg for me

[Tandstad]

Hi all,

I have decided to come back to indoor rowing after 3.5yrs away from the sport.

I had a model D that i pretty enthusiastically used back in 2020/2021 for about 4 months off the back of some weight training and during the COVID lockdowns (in the UK).

For a newbie, I was very fast. But I was 120kg back then and I'm 203cm. I went into it with a lot of strength but low cardio fitness. A 1:16.06.5 half marathon was my best achievement.

In April 2022, I took up road cycling (I'd competed as a kid - I'm 40 now) and since then have done over 1200hrs and 31000km. A lot of gravel riding in there too, as we live in Sweden now.

Winters here are obviously pretty snowy, and whilst o maintained over 1000km a month all through winter, getting threshold and VO2 max training in can be tricky.

So this is where the rower comes back in.

I am now 101kg, VO2 max of about 64-65, FTP 410w. I'm especially strong on 2-6 minute efforts due to the nature of the hills around us.

But what I really enjoyed on the rower was longer efforts. My HM remains one of my proudest sporting moments.

Two questions:

1) how should I ease back into it to avoid injury? I have maintained strength training, and I have 80% of my strength compared to when I was 120kg. My fitness is extremely high. I did find rowing aggravated my shoulders sometimes but that is probably a form issue, but I'm conscious that I don't want to go too hard, too quickly.

2) I really like the HM distance. The world record for my age group is around 1:11. 3 years ago I was five minutes off. Given the 1200hrs of pretty focused cycling in the intervening period, do I have a realistic shot at it? I love cycling, and it'll always be my primary sport, but I am physiologically built to row. It would be cool to have a go at the WR and my employer has said they'd consider sponsoring me (ie, buying the rower for me) in tjat attempt.

I know that 5 minutes is substantial, but i only tried the distance once, and at 120kg, i was carrying way more muscle than was needed.

Thoughts, musings and reality checks are gratefully appreciated!

Hey man, good to see you back here I never really got over the fact that you very fast beat both my HM and my 30R20

But seriously, impressive stats performane wise from biking, and with your height and weight you are built for big numbers. If you have a shot at the WR I have no clue. I started of with my first HM just under 1:20, and ended with 1:16.19, but HM was never really something I aimed at, it was just domething I did when my 60 minute sessions became decent. But of course going from 1:16 towards 1:10/11 is much more difficult. Big volume over time, enough sleep and a good diet would probably get you under 1:15 quite fast.

[alex9026]

2) I really like the HM distance. The world record for my age group is around 1:11. 3 years ago I was five minutes off. Given the 1200hrs of pretty focused cycling in the intervening period, do I have a realistic shot at it? I love cycling, and it'll always be my primary sport, but I am physiologically built to row. It would be cool to have a go at the WR and my employer has said they'd consider sponsoring me (ie, buying the rower for me) in tjat attempt.

Not to discourage you, but I think you may be underestimating just how strong/elite a HM at 1:41 pace (I'll use this as a reference over watts) is. A Strava segment on a bike is not comparable to anything on the erg, there are too many variables to factor in. How many reps is your 160kg deadlift? "Strong for a cyclist" is relative.

As Dangerscouse said, a 1:13 HM would be fantastic and definitely in a bracket not many here could relate to.

On the cycling, I envy the riding you have in Sweden! Would love a couple of weeks gravel riding there.

[jamesg]

Probably have to use a medium rate (28?) to keep the forces "low", while limiting inertial erg losses, but get enough Oxygen in 2 breaths per stroke.

A 21k in 70 minutes a is 5m/s and 350W. 350/28 = 12.5 W-min per stroke.

A nice test might be a 5k, to be done at that rate and speed, so 16:40 time (=1k seconds). In the Rankings this year there are 15 entries faster than 17 minutes 5k.

[iain]

So the pace that I believe I need to comfortably go under the 40-49 WR for a HM is 1:41 which according the calculator attached to this forum is 339w.

339w for 71 minutes is no problem at all for me on the bike, so the question is, how much can I carry over from cycle FTP to rower FTP.

Most rower / cyclists find that watts on rower are significantly lower but the proportion varies a lot with some reporting a 30% decrease. In addition looking at the decrease in power over time, rowing drops off faster so 71 min is going to be significantly below "threshold" power. On erg you have to generate the power in 1/3 or so of the time rather than continuously on the bike so peak power is much higher than the average displayed. I assume the faster power drop off is because we are forced to use fast twitch fibres more often to generate those powers. That said, some report higher proportions of cycling power.

Good luck on your quest.

[Big J]

Hey man, good to see you back here I never really got over the fact that you very fast beat both my HM and my 30R20

But seriously, impressive stats performane wise from biking, and with your height and weight you are built for big numbers. If you have a shot at the WR I have no clue. I started of with my first HM just under 1:20, and ended with 1:16.19, but HM was never really something I aimed at, it was just domething I did when my 60 minute sessions became decent. But of course going from 1:16 towards 1:10/11 is much more difficult. Big volume over time, enough sleep and a good diet would probably get you under 1:15 quite fast.

Thanks! It's nice to be back. I hadn't really planned on rowing again, but have come to the conclusion that it's probably the best way to maintain my zone 3 and 4 cardio capacity over winter, and I do think that I am physiologically suited to it.

I was in Norway last month on the bike (absolutely loved it - favourite climb was Jondal to Folgefönna) and will go back again next month for a few days of mountain climbing on the bike.

My plan is to test myself on Wednesday at the local gym on their Concept 2 (assuming the little niggle I have in my right forearms clears up). I will set off at 1:40 pace and will see how 5k feels. I think I should be able to hold that for a 16:40 finish, but we shall see. Given that I always negative split these things (on the bike too - I'm always stronger at the end of a TT), if I can do 5km at 1:40, I should be in the ballpark for doing 1:41 for 21k with a bit of training focus and technical work.

My Strava, if anyone is interested:

https://www.strava.com/athletes/52082048

[Big J]

Not to discourage you, but I think you may be underestimating just how strong/elite a HM at 1:41 pace (I'll use this as a reference over watts) is. A Strava segment on a bike is not comparable to anything on the erg, there are too many variables to factor in. How many reps is your 160kg deadlift? "Strong for a cyclist" is relative.

As Dangerscouse said, a 1:13 HM would be fantastic and definitely in a bracket not many here could relate to.

On the cycling, I envy the riding you have in Sweden! Would love a couple of weeks gravel riding there.

You are probably right of course. But it's hard to describe how much fitter I am now compared to when I did the 1:16. I would say that if I was to compare my fitness on the bike then and now, my FTP is about 60% higher (250w to 410w).

I don't deadlift so much now, but can do 5 reps at about 140-145kg. I don't do heavy singles anymore as it's not worth the risk. When I was younger and stupider (and 131kg) I deadlifted 260kg.

If gravel riding is your thing, I'm pretty heavily involved with the cycle tourism side of things here. The Glorious Gravel Sweden tour is of my creation (we did three weeks this year with 65 cyclists from the UK) and I work alongside the council here to promote gravel riding. We also have a cabin we can offer, as well as numerous other houses that we rent. We had ex-pro cyclist Alex Dowsett here for a week in May to experience it all and this is the video he made of his visit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp6bBbuVTp8&t=1s