7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
jamesg
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by jamesg » August 8th, 2024, 3:21 am

What interval distance is the most effective for 30 mins?

Any work will do, as you can find out for yourself: try the WODs, there's one every day and they're not too long to be of any use for speed.

A lot depends on your style; but also on height, weight and age. 165W for 30 minutes could well be impossible, as it is for me.
Last edited by jamesg on August 8th, 2024, 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
08-1940, 179cm, 83kg.

iain
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by iain » August 8th, 2024, 4:09 am

I am surprised that all of the replies from much better ergers than me vary from the training design that is usually used. Going back to basics I would break the requirements of your 30 min into its components:

1) ability to deal with aerobic demands of required rate and pace
2) mental conditioning and confidence to push through the desired pace
3) strength to deliver the required watts sustainably.

Of these general requirements I would expect 3) to not be an issue for yourself although could be for more recent erg converts or those going for shorter / more ambitious targets.

1) is about pushing up your threshold. I would say any of the 2k training sessions will achieve this. There is no requirement that this is done in sessions including 30 min of work and I would expect going above threshold to achieve this faster than trying to do repeated threshold sessions.

I would attack 2) from both sides: rowing 30 min+ sessions at less than threshold so you are confident you can row that long and don't get intimidated by the time remaining. Personally I find some grey "sweet spot" sessions are good for this. Being 2S/500m or so below 30' pace is surprisingly easy to maintain for me and having done this for 10k rows makes the 30' much less daunting. The requirement for these will depend upon your mental strengths and whether you have done similar sessions / intend to test regularly.

The other side of 2) is getting used to the uncomfortable experience of rowing close to threshold. This has 3 aspects, the rate, the work per stroke and the overall ability to hold sustainably what is required. I'm sure you will know if you are not yet at the point where you can meet the first 2. Faster rate pieces (which will also help with 1)) will help you to get breathing and timing right for rate, while lower rating SS will allow you to build the stroke (this might also require some work on 3) such as weights or "strength" sessions of very short intervals at low ratings for these lengths (such as R30 for 20" or R24 for 30") with long rests.

The final point is the only one that I would expect top be adequately addressed by most of the suggestions above.

JMHO and maybe obvious to you from your extensive erging and forum participation to date.
56, lightweight in pace and by gravity. Currently training 3-4 times a week after a break to slowly regain the pitiful fitness I achieved a few years ago. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

iain
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by iain » August 8th, 2024, 6:21 am

Apologies for double post, but too slow coming back to edit.

I set a different target of sub 21' when getting back to fitness after a recent lay off. That is a similar standard if not slightly harder than 7k 30'. It had the advantage of being more directly comparable to the PP long intervals than the 30' so I was looking for sub 2:06 average on 5x1.5k (which I do with 4' rest) and used PP approach to get down to it. I made sure of doing the waterfall (3k; 2.5k; 2k for me also with 4' rest) beforehand targeting sub 2:07 as that clearly demonstrated that I could get past the psychologically crucial 50% part before attempting the TT. That was how I addressed the final area in my above analysis. But I would say this mental preparation is only required at the end of the quest for the target (maybe last 2 weeks).
56, lightweight in pace and by gravity. Currently training 3-4 times a week after a break to slowly regain the pitiful fitness I achieved a few years ago. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

hikeplusrow
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by hikeplusrow » August 8th, 2024, 7:53 am

iain wrote:
August 8th, 2024, 6:21 am
Apologies for double post, but too slow coming back to edit.

I set a different target of sub 21' when getting back to fitness after a recent lay off. That is a similar standard if not slightly harder than 7k 30'. It had the advantage of being more directly comparable to the PP long intervals than the 30' so I was looking for sub 2:06 average on 5x1.5k (which I do with 4' rest) and used PP approach to get down to it. I made sure of doing the waterfall (3k; 2.5k; 2k for me also with 4' rest) beforehand targeting sub 2:07 as that clearly demonstrated that I could get past the psychologically crucial 50% part before attempting the TT. That was how I addressed the final area in my above analysis. But I would say this mental preparation is only required at the end of the quest for the target (maybe last 2 weeks).
Thanks Iain, an excellent couple of posts that I'll take time to digest. Many thanks indeed.

hikeplusrow
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by hikeplusrow » August 8th, 2024, 8:02 am

I should add that I've done 25:40.5 for 6K (165 watts - required pace for the 30.00 mins), but that was two years back. However, I think it shows potential :D

Dangerscouse
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by Dangerscouse » August 8th, 2024, 10:09 am

hikeplusrow wrote:
August 8th, 2024, 8:02 am
I should add that I've done 25:40.5 for 6K (165 watts - required pace for the 30.00 mins), but that was two years back. However, I think it shows potential :D
That definitely shows potential, and should be something that you keep reminding yourself
51 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

dabatey
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by dabatey » August 9th, 2024, 2:56 am

hikeplusrow wrote:
August 8th, 2024, 8:02 am
I should add that I've done 25:40.5 for 6K (165 watts - required pace for the 30.00 mins), but that was two years back. However, I think it shows potential :D
If you've been doing loads of long slow aerobic stuff since, and are possibly now aerobically fitter than before, then your aim should be well within your capabilities.
Age 52....Weight 61 Kg....
Row 26 Aug 21 to Mar 22. Cycle Mar 22 to Jun 24. Now mixing the 2.
2K 8.02.3 (23 Oct 21)...7.37.0(15 Mar 22)
5K 22.14 (2 Oct 21)
Resting HR 45 (was 48 in 2021)....Max HR (Seen) 182 [185 cycling]

hikeplusrow
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by hikeplusrow » August 9th, 2024, 9:48 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
August 8th, 2024, 10:09 am
hikeplusrow wrote:
August 8th, 2024, 8:02 am
I should add that I've done 25:40.5 for 6K (165 watts - required pace for the 30.00 mins), but that was two years back. However, I think it shows potential :D
That definitely shows potential, and should be something that you keep reminding yourself
I did 10K this morning, and thought I'd experiment with a higher drag. Remarkable how much easier it felt to maintain HM pace. I think I might try to go even higher tomorrow. The PBs I set two years ago were all set at a significantly higher drag that I've been using recently.

winniewinser
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by winniewinser » August 9th, 2024, 11:20 am

How tall are you? Reason I ask is my vertically challenged wife actually found better pace as a higher drag as her stroke was so short. It all comes down to how the PM measures the speed that the flywheel accelerates/decelerates. Whereas personally I find 110-120 about right for me at 6'2".

This video by the inventor of the C2 was interesting and shows you can row just as well at the lowest drag setting too. All in the leg drive/timing etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv4AHfyVock

I don't think many people fiddle with their DF to slow down their stroke rate. More likely people increase DF when sprinting as you naturally rate higher and want the flywheel to slow quickly too.

Just some random thoughts
6'2" 52yo
Alex
Recent 2k - 7:19
All time 2k - 6:50.2 (LW)

hikeplusrow
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by hikeplusrow » August 9th, 2024, 11:42 am

winniewinser wrote:
August 9th, 2024, 11:20 am
How tall are you? Reason I ask is my vertically challenged wife actually found better pace as a higher drag as her stroke was so short. It all comes down to how the PM measures the speed that the flywheel accelerates/decelerates. Whereas personally I find 110-120 about right for me at 6'2".

This video by the inventor of the C2 was interesting and shows you can row just as well at the lowest drag setting too. All in the leg drive/timing etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv4AHfyVock

I don't think many people fiddle with their DF to slow down their stroke rate. More likely people increase DF when sprinting as you naturally rate higher and want the flywheel to slow quickly too.

Just some random thoughts
I'm short (5'9") and light (70kg). It's strange, because I've never found that my rating changes much relative to drag. I would have assumed that a lower drag equates to a noticeably higher rating at a given pace. I wonder if it's because stroke lengthens at a lower drag?

MPx
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by MPx » August 9th, 2024, 12:29 pm

Drag is mostly about feel - and you can get used to anything - but for most people, for most pieces, a lowish DF will help maintain the prescribed fast leg drive as the flywheel will keep spinning faster. High DF will result in a very slow flywheel at low/medium ratings - this will likely slow down your leg drive which is not ideal. However, as rating increases that issue goes away - and it is common for shorter ergers to naturally rate higher than taller ones - suggesting a higher DF may suit. Indeed, for the ultra sprints, ratings can go stratospheric with benefits for some. In those conditions (as Alex said) high or even max DF can be beneficial so that the flywheel has time to slow a bit in the fraction of a second before the next stroke. Rating at 50-60 on low DF makes it extremely difficult to do a fast enough drive to put any significant energy into the flywheel. JM2PW
Mike - 67 HWT 183

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hikeplusrow
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by hikeplusrow » August 9th, 2024, 2:02 pm

MPx wrote:
August 9th, 2024, 12:29 pm
Drag is mostly about feel - and you can get used to anything - but for most people, for most pieces, a lowish DF will help maintain the prescribed fast leg drive as the flywheel will keep spinning faster. High DF will result in a very slow flywheel at low/medium ratings - this will likely slow down your leg drive which is not ideal. However, as rating increases that issue goes away - and it is common for shorter ergers to naturally rate higher than taller ones - suggesting a higher DF may suit. Indeed, for the ultra sprints, ratings can go stratospheric with benefits for some. In those conditions (as Alex said) high or even max DF can be beneficial so that the flywheel has time to slow a bit in the fraction of a second before the next stroke. Rating at 50-60 on low DF makes it extremely difficult to do a fast enough drive to put any significant energy into the flywheel. JM2PW
I've heard to said previously that shorter ergers naturally rate higher, but that's never really applied to me. I'm not currently doing any UT2, but, if I were, I'd be at about 16. Lower ratings seem completely natural to me. When I started erging, I read a lot about the importance of a slow recovery, and I largely blame that for the rut I'm in as regards low SR.

Dangerscouse
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by Dangerscouse » August 9th, 2024, 2:08 pm

hikeplusrow wrote:
August 9th, 2024, 9:48 am
I did 10K this morning, and thought I'd experiment with a higher drag. Remarkable how much easier it felt to maintain HM pace. I think I might try to go even higher tomorrow. The PBs I set two years ago were all set at a significantly higher drag that I've been using recently.
It's very subjective, and I recall rowing at the gym once (so it must have been over six years ago) and I didn't check the drag factor and started rowing. IIRC it was about 150, and I quite enjoyed it, but I've settled on 120ish.

I might try and nudge it up a bit as I'm not convinced that at least part of why I do it is because I've convinced myself that I can't go higher. I might be wrong, but I do like to always challenge assumptions, and see if things have changed.
51 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

hikeplusrow
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by hikeplusrow » August 9th, 2024, 3:11 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:
August 9th, 2024, 2:08 pm
hikeplusrow wrote:
August 9th, 2024, 9:48 am
I did 10K this morning, and thought I'd experiment with a higher drag. Remarkable how much easier it felt to maintain HM pace. I think I might try to go even higher tomorrow. The PBs I set two years ago were all set at a significantly higher drag that I've been using recently.
It's very subjective, and I recall rowing at the gym once (so it must have been over six years ago) and I didn't check the drag factor and started rowing. IIRC it was about 150, and I quite enjoyed it, but I've settled on 120ish.

I might try and nudge it up a bit as I'm not convinced that at least part of why I do it is because I've convinced myself that I can't go higher. I might be wrong, but I do like to always challenge assumptions, and see if things have changed.
Tomorrow, I'm going to nudge it up to the DF I used for all but one of my PBs (106-110). For my HM, I used 85-90. I originally started using this very low DF because I was working on technique, and it helped in that regard. However, I think it has outlived its usefulness at this point.

MPx
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Re: 7k in 30 minutes - interval suggestions

Post by MPx » August 10th, 2024, 12:51 pm

hikeplusrow wrote:
August 9th, 2024, 3:11 pm
the DF I used for all but one of my PBs (106-110). For my HM, I used 85-90.
I should have looked closer at your briefing. I didn't realise you were using quite such low DFs. The standard recommendations vary of course but typically fall into something like 110-130 for most people. Therefore sub 110 is considered "low" and 85-90 really very low so I'm not surprised it feels better to maintain performance at a higher number than you were using. Still doesn't really matter what the number is if it feels right for you - but you're right to try higher now that you've moved on from honing your stroke.
Mike - 67 HWT 183

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