2K strategy - what needs improving?

[dabatey]

When I started I did most of my rowing at 130 drag. After a bit I changed to 100 drag and although it felt a bit different there was pretty much no change to my power outputs. Even 500m intervals where I was pulling a pretty short stroke were ok run at 100 drag. I'm 60kg though and I think someone heavy would want a much higher drag for short stuff.

On lower drag I face a speed threshold I cannot overcome at that drag, as I cannot increase my drive speed anymore. On increased drag I can get the drive speed to the same level, thus calculated speed on the monitor gets faster. This is the main reason, why I change drag during different pieces.
Like you say, different athletes, different handling

Actually my memory is playing up a little. Looking at my log, it was pretty late on I changed to 100 drag, almost just before I switched to cycling. Although I did do a set of 8 x 500 at 100 with no ill effects most of my training and my fastest 2k was at 125 drag.

[Sakly]

When I started I did most of my rowing at 130 drag. After a bit I changed to 100 drag and although it felt a bit different there was pretty much no change to my power outputs. Even 500m intervals where I was pulling a pretty short stroke were ok run at 100 drag. I'm 60kg though and I think someone heavy would want a much higher drag for short stuff.

On lower drag I face a speed threshold I cannot overcome at that drag, as I cannot increase my drive speed anymore. On increased drag I can get the drive speed to the same level, thus calculated speed on the monitor gets faster. This is the main reason, why I change drag during different pieces.
Like you say, different athletes, different handling

Actually my memory is playing up a little. Looking at my log, it was pretty late on I changed to 100 drag, almost just before I switched to cycling. Although I did do a set of 8 x 500 at 100 with no ill effects most of my training and my fastest 2k was at 125 drag.

For you it could be the case that on higher drag your drive speed decreases and thus the calculated speed is the same.
Of course, these theoretical thoughts only apply on maximum output. For a typical 8x500 you won't go all out on every rep, so in practical use the DF has a lower meaning for the session. But for a single all out distance it can make a difference.

[iain]

For you it could be the case that on higher drag your drive speed decreases and thus the calculated speed is the same.

Of course, these theoretical thoughts only apply on maximum output. For a typical 8x500 you won't go all out on every rep, so in practical use the DF has a lower meaning for the session. But for a single all out distance it can make a difference.

I would say for most people over the lowest drags the drive speed reduces with increasing drag (at least over an aerobic distance), so the question is at what drag does the decrease equal the extra calculated speed for the higher drag. High drag can reduce the impact of some technique errors as a higher proportion of the power comes from the upper body and it is usually power from the legs that is lost through poor technique. Learninbg to row at a variety of drag factors can help to identify any flaws however.

[dabatey]

On lower drag I face a speed threshold I cannot overcome at that drag, as I cannot increase my drive speed anymore. On increased drag I can get the drive speed to the same level, thus calculated speed on the monitor gets faster. This is the main reason, why I change drag during different pieces.
Like you say, different athletes, different handling

Actually my memory is playing up a little. Looking at my log, it was pretty late on I changed to 100 drag, almost just before I switched to cycling. Although I did do a set of 8 x 500 at 100 with no ill effects most of my training and my fastest 2k was at 125 drag.

For you it could be the case that on higher drag your drive speed decreases and thus the calculated speed is the same.
Of course, these theoretical thoughts only apply on maximum output. For a typical 8x500 you won't go all out on every rep, so in practical use the DF has a lower meaning for the session. But for a single all out distance it can make a difference.

I did an 'almost' as fast as I could go 8000m a couple of days ago on Friday. I think I'll bump back up to 125 drag this week which will give me a couple of workouts to adjust and then I can repeat the exact same workout next Friday and see if it makes a difference.

[Sakly]

For you it could be the case that on higher drag your drive speed decreases and thus the calculated speed is the same.

Of course, these theoretical thoughts only apply on maximum output. For a typical 8x500 you won't go all out on every rep, so in practical use the DF has a lower meaning for the session. But for a single all out distance it can make a difference.

I would say for most people over the lowest drags the drive speed reduces with increasing drag (at least over an aerobic distance), so the question is at what drag does the decrease equal the extra calculated speed for the higher drag. High drag can reduce the impact of some technique errors as a higher proportion of the power comes from the upper body and it is usually power from the legs that is lost through poor technique. Learninbg to row at a variety of drag factors can help to identify any flaws however.

Agree.
Probably a practical example needed: my speed threshold for drag around 100-110 is about 1:40 or so at a medium fast rate (did not try for a longer time now, perhaps that changed). That tested, it means I cannot go faster on any distance, when using drag of 100 at the specific rate (or lower rate) . Increasing drag to 130-140 allows me to go down to 1:30 (or so, as I said, not tested for longer time) at the same rate. This is the reason, why I do 2k's and shorter on higher drag. For distances with splits slower than 1:40, I don't need to, but do it for efficiency reasons.
Only on steady states, typical HM, I use a drag of ~100 going with a split around 2:00 +-, which is far away from the speed limit threshold, it does not matter.

I did an 'almost' as fast as I could go 8000m a couple of days ago on Friday. I think I'll bump back up to 125 drag this week which will give me a couple of workouts to adjust and then I can repeat the exact same workout next Friday and see if it makes a difference.

Based on what I've written above, I don't expect a huge difference, as your 8k pace will probably be a good bit away from the described "speed limit threshold" for lower drag. I would assume a different result for shorter distances, like a 2k or below.

[Dangerscouse]

Is ideal df at all dependent on body weight and/or height? Being short and relatively light I’m wondering if my df should be lower than your classic 190cm 90kg rower…

I wouldn't overthink df too much as it might help, but it also might not. It's definitely about finding what works best for you, as it's a means to an end, not an end in itself. I've seen loads of people asking really good ergers what df they use, on the basis that it's got to be the secret to their success.

I know that Nick (Rockliff) uses circa 125 for everything he rows, and I hardly ever change it too, but admittedly I've not scientifically proven if that's beneficial or not. I might be losing some performance by not dropping from circa 120 for every session.

If you do experiment, do small changes over a few sessions eg no more than four as it will feel quite a lot different and you can make a snap decision that it's not helpful. Over the years I've rowed a wide range and I've also found on different days I prefer a different df, due to it being a gym rower with a higher than usual df when I forogt to check it, so it can be quite random.

[dabatey]

For you it could be the case that on higher drag your drive speed decreases and thus the calculated speed is the same.

Of course, these theoretical thoughts only apply on maximum output. For a typical 8x500 you won't go all out on every rep, so in practical use the DF has a lower meaning for the session. But for a single all out distance it can make a difference.

I would say for most people over the lowest drags the drive speed reduces with increasing drag (at least over an aerobic distance), so the question is at what drag does the decrease equal the extra calculated speed for the higher drag. High drag can reduce the impact of some technique errors as a higher proportion of the power comes from the upper body and it is usually power from the legs that is lost through poor technique. Learninbg to row at a variety of drag factors can help to identify any flaws however.

Agree.
Probably a practical example needed: my speed threshold for drag around 100-110 is about 1:40 or so at a medium fast rate (did not try for a longer time now, perhaps that changed). That tested, it means I cannot go faster on any distance, when using drag of 100 at the specific rate (or lower rate) . Increasing drag to 130-140 allows me to go down to 1:30 (or so, as I said, not tested for longer time) at the same rate. This is the reason, why I do 2k's and shorter on higher drag. For distances with splits slower than 1:40, I don't need to, but do it for efficiency reasons.
Only on steady states, typical HM, I use a drag of ~100 going with a split around 2:00 +-, which is far away from the speed limit threshold, it does not matter.

I did an 'almost' as fast as I could go 8000m a couple of days ago on Friday. I think I'll bump back up to 125 drag this week which will give me a couple of workouts to adjust and then I can repeat the exact same workout next Friday and see if it makes a difference.

Based on what I've written above, I don't expect a huge difference, as your 8k pace will probably be a good bit away from the described "speed limit threshold" for lower drag. I would assume a different result for shorter distances, like a 2k or below.

I'm not expecting to see any difference in speed. However, my thoughts are it might bring my stroke rate down a touch which like you say will give me more headroom for a 2k further down the line. My 8k last week was at quite a highish stroke rate.

[Sakly]

I'm not expecting to see any difference in speed. However, my thoughts are it might bring my stroke rate down a touch which like you say will give me more headroom for a 2k further down the line. My 8k last week was at quite a highish stroke rate.

That's definitely a thing.
In a 30r20 I can bring the splits further down with a higher drag. Of course, it is more stressful, but on lower drag I couldn't get the lower splits.
Good luck with your 8k!

[Jamie rowing]

Thanks for the advice, chaps. I will try a few different drag factors to see what suits me best. But as dangerscouse recommends I won’t become too obsessed with it. Certainly as I am still new to this. In my training life over the years- strength, swim, cycle and running - ive found the most important point is to be consistent with the training, not overtraining and try to avoid injury. Ive occasionally become obsessed with finding the ‘perfect’ routine but it doesn’t exist and I normally settle back into a more achievable routine.

[dabatey]

I think although don't worry too much about drag factor, the 104 machine you found definitely has a highest drag factor at the lower end. So best to keep looking for a cleaner machine or clean one yourself (with gym approval). I'll follow your progress with interest as I think we are at (pretty) roughly the same level at present albeit with a fair weight difference.

[lucyy7]

how do i get my 2k down to 7.35 from 7.51. im a 15 year old girl and my last 2k was at a 1.59 500m split at s/r 26

[iain]

how do i get my 2k down to 7.35 from 7.51. im a 15 year old girl and my last 2k was at a 1.59 500m split at s/r 26

While there are multiple ways, I think that most people would find that most of the improvement should come from increasing your stroke rate without reducing the work generated by each stroke. Most good rowers rate 30+ strokes per minute. Sorry to be a pedant, but you actually averaged 1:57.8 not 1:59. Should I take this to mean that you did most of the 7:51 at 1:59 26SpM, with a faster part at a higher or unsustainable rate? If so, you have about the right amount of work per stroke (8WMin = 479J/stroke) to produce a 7:35 at 30SpM.

This should be achieved by only increasing the speed of your recovery. Unfortunately this will mean that you need to "recover" as much in a shorter period and so it requires more fitness as well as a change in the stroke proportions, the good news is you don't need to produce more force.

To get used to what is required, I recommend you do short intervals (perhaps 500m) with long (3min+) rests. 26 - 30 is a large jump, so you need to slowly increase the rate over time. These high intensity sessions shouldn't be more than 3 times a week.

In the meantime you need to keep training so that you can maintain the 11% higher output. Given that you already have a strong stroke, I expect that this will need to come primarily from increased endurance and so you will need to do some long sessions. Many of these can be at a low intensity, so drop the rate right down to 18-20SPM, but try and maintain a strong stroke, giving yourself time to recover by crawling up the slide between drives.

The final element is mental preparedness. Personally I find that doing 4 1k rows with 5 mins between at 2k pace is a great mental preparation as eack 1k contains the challenges that are faced in a 2k:

• settling to an efficient stroke and not going too fast;
  Managing the transition as you transition to producing substantially all of your energy aerobically and dealing with the large amount left despite it getting increasingly difficult to get enough air;
  Managing to maintain the pace despite increased discomfort by maintaining form and lifting the rate/effort level
  Accelerating despite feeling at your end and using the euphoria of the approaching finish to spur you on

Others prefer to build up the distance at a faster rate or do a decreasing part at a slower pace.

Good luck

Iain

[jamesg]

How do i get my 2k down to 7.35 from 7.51? I'm a 15 year old girl and my last 2k was at a 1.59 500m split at s/r 26

Clean and simple Style, and practice.

Rate too, 26 is low and forces you to rely on strength, which is a killer when racing. On the erg, avoid high drag, the stroke needs to be fast, not hard. A 2k takes 200 odd strokes on the quick in a 2k, so they can't be anywhere near max force.

[Jamie rowing]

Further to our conversation in early July, I have done another 2k and improved my time by over 30 seconds. This morning I did 2k in 8:03, compared to 8:35 on 29th June. My splits were 1:58.7, 2:01.9, 2:02.1 and 2:00.3.

I used a much higher drag factor of 118, compared to mid 70s last time. Stroke rate average 28, compared to 25. Average watts 199 compared to 164.

Overall I’m very happy with the time. I was aiming for 8:00. It felt very hard in the middle two quarters and i took my foot off the pedal a little bit. Looking back I think I could have maintained the 2:00 pace and still had a bit left to accelerate near the end.

I’ve been rowing at least 4 times a week following the’rowalong’ program on youtube. I like the structure of hard intervals, steady state, medium length intervals, steady state etc.

My target will be to get below 8:00 perhaps in two weeks time. Then focus on trimming the time down to 7:50 5 to 6 weeks after that.

[Sakly]

Further to our conversation in early July, I have done another 2k and improved my time by over 30 seconds. This morning I did 2k in 8:03, compared to 8:35 on 29th June. My splits were 1:58.7, 2:01.9, 2:02.1 and 2:00.3.

I used a much higher drag factor of 118, compared to mid 70s last time. Stroke rate average 28, compared to 25. Average watts 199 compared to 164.

Congrats, very good improvement!
You will get the 8min in no time