EXR finally has racing mode (in public beta)!

[JaapvanE]

Hi all,

In its monthly update, EXR included racing mode, see https://exrgame.com/blog/update-1.23

As far as I can see, it allows to race in a 500m, 1000m and a 2000m with 6 people (or ghost boats). I haven't tried it yet, but it is a great step forward.

[RDL]

Full disclosure. I’ve never used EXR but have just watched this video…

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZZcUtffJe8s&feature=shareb

It looks like a fun aspect but having looked at the cost. I’m not so sure. I’m not a fan of subscription however.
Beyond the pretty visuals and now racing what else does it offer over ERG Data say.

I may try it but not sure if for me at least it’s worth £83-£143 a year depending on subscription choice.

I’m still struggling to get back up to fitness after injury mind, so my willingness to spend money is low right now!

[JaapvanE]

It looks like a fun aspect but having looked at the cost. I’m not so sure. I’m not a fan of subscription however.
Beyond the pretty visuals and now racing what else does it offer over ERG Data say.

I'm not a racer myself. What I really like is to row with several people in a group. I especially like the saturday afternoon group where we have different pace subgroups, allowing people just to tag along. I was injured myself and am still recovering, so I use the 2:25/500m pace group for a long steady state row of an hour. For me, that hour flies by because I can just tag along without having to worry about pace.

I usually do an easy 10K on workdays, and then Henley's 8.8K course is great as it visually changes a lot. And I encounter a lot of rowers during that time that I can try to catch up with (I'm a curious person, so seeing someone in front of me motivates me to find out who that is and what boat/colors they are in). Sometimes I encounter a familiar rower and we row side-by-side for several kilometers. For me, it is a way to fight boredom during long slow rows.

But I can imagine it is a pretty steep price to overcome.

[RDL]

But I can imagine it is a pretty steep price to overcome.

For me, this is the crux but then I am quite happy sticking a podcast on and just erging in my own little world.

I have tried to watch YouTube etc whilst erging and it just didn’t work for me so I am assuming looking at the screen for anything more than data will be the same.
Although having said that I wouldn’t mind the Real Time Loop being more graphical on the occasional use I give it.

If it was £30 (random figure tbh) a year I’d probably give it a shot and wouldn’t mind sporadic use. At the higher prices I’d feel I needed to use it to justify the cost.

Some of what you mention though does sound interesting though and I will I think give it a shot at some point so as to make a more critical and fair assessment.

[JaapvanE]

I have tried to watch YouTube etc whilst erging and it just didn’t work for me so I am assuming looking at the screen for anything more than data will be the same.

I have the same experience with YouTube (and Netflix etc.). On EXR, I am happy with the default view, never got used to the POV, and cinematic mode is too fast for me.

[RDL]

I have the same experience with YouTube (and Netflix etc.). On EXR, I am happy with the default view, never got used to the POV, and cinematic mode is too fast for me.

More useful opinion/experience.

I think cost aside I will definitely trial it.

Will wait until I have some time off work to make the most of the trial period however.

In the meantime I’ll keep on eye on things. Not saying I will be able to overcome my dislike of subscriptions(!) but if you can pay a month here and there when fancying done different then might be worth a beeper look.

[RDL]

Bit of a thread resurrection rather than start a new one as feels relevant to the topic.

I have finally got around to trying the 14 day trial after yet another period away and after initially struggling to motivate I have really enjoyed the trial so far and am pretty much going to continue with it.

I have been using the EXR Split vs Rower data because it sounds ‘better’.

I felt I was struggling a little to maintain my usual splits and getting gassed a bit quicker then I noticed that my splits were around 5s slower vs the PM5 so I was actually rowing harder to achieve my target because of that 5s deficit so to speak.

Doing some reading it seems this is to be expected as that’s how it’s programmed to be more realistic to on the water.

I am curious then to see/hear what others use. EXR Split or Rower Data. Also do you buy into/agree with EXRs reasoning.

For racing/competition it seems to me that they have rather than make it fairer have instead opened it up to being gamed.
A lightweight would naturally choose the EXR Split as it makes them faster (as I understand it) and using the EXR Split will punish a heavyweight as I’ve experienced by ‘making’ them slower therefore a heavyweight may as well use the Rower Data and get a speed boost.

I know that maybe sounds like I am being all competitive but it’s not. Just idle musing and ‘seeing’ a to me obvious flaw. To me everyone needs to be using the same calculation for it to be ‘fair’.

Like I say, curious to hear other users perspective.

[JaapvanE]

I have been using the EXR Split vs Rower data because it sounds ‘better’.

I felt I was struggling a little to maintain my usual splits and getting gassed a bit quicker then I noticed that my splits were around 5s slower vs the PM5 so I was actually rowing harder to achieve my target because of that 5s deficit so to speak.

Doing some reading it seems this is to be expected as that’s how it’s programmed to be more realistic to on the water.

I am curious then to see/hear what others use. EXR Split or Rower Data. Also do you buy into/agree with EXRs reasoning.

I'm on machine (Rower data) split, as I am extremely sceptical about EXR splits. They try to correct three things:

• Machine deviations: non-C2 machines often have lousy metrics and just produce a number, and EXR tries to correct for them. In all honesty I appreciate the effort, but as the main developer of OpenRowingMonitor (essentially an open source PM5) I am extremely sceptical about this as I see the horrible mess that is behind these monitor screens, which can't be corrected without replacing the monitor on these machines completely (most of them don't calculate drag, several don't even calculate flywheel speed...). I consider this a lost cause to start with. As a C2 owner, you are affected a little by it, as even on a C2 some corrections are made (which is odd, as Ulm University has shown that the PM5 is pretty reliable).
• Weight corrections. When cycling on Zwift, going uphill and downhill needs partially be corrected for weight. EXR adapted this approach, claiming that more weight also implies more drag. I have some issues with this as well, as on an Erg, the person is moving up and down the slide, already costing a lot of energy that is not happening on a real boat. Although a heavier person will increase boat drag, I'm not convinced it is easily corrected (the physics of boat movements is surprisingly complex, and to correct it requires a lot of detailed data like top-speed and minimum speed).
• Power levelling: EXR wants to level the playingfield. Heavier rowers are generally also more powerfull. I am a bit sceptical about this one, as this relation does apply to lean and mean competition rowers, it doesn't hold true for less lean recreational rowers.

I admit, with 95 kg's, I'm negatively affected by two of these points, so I might be biassed. But, the PM5 is the golden standard in indoor rowing. Its times are accepted at almost face value. World championships and olympic team selections are based on it. So messing with it goes against my instinct, no matter how well-intended.

For racing/competition it seems to me that they have rather than make it fairer have instead opened it up to being gamed.
A lightweight would naturally choose the EXR Split as it makes them faster (as I understand it) and using the EXR Split will punish a heavyweight as I’ve experienced by ‘making’ them slower therefore a heavyweight may as well use the Rower Data and get a speed boost.

I know that maybe sounds like I am being all competitive but it’s not. Just idle musing and ‘seeing’ a to me obvious flaw. To me everyone needs to be using the same calculation for it to be ‘fair’.

Like I say, curious to hear other users perspective.

Yeah, it freaks me out to get a 7 splits difference between my PM5 and my EXR screen. In theory (although far from likely for me personally) I could row a world record that would be in the official record books and recognised globally, and still lose the race. As a purely recreational rower it still bugs me as I like to row fixed distances, which then won't allign with Strava or the C2 logbook.

And yes, some could game the system. But others have machines where a 1:15/500m pace can be easily maintained for hours (did I mention many non-C2 monitors are a mess...). When I look at the 500m leaderboard, I see 1:04's from unfamiliar names, which suggests some ridiculous corrections. The number 5 in the list I personally know, he sits on the Erg about 5 times a year, certainly isn't build like the Hulk and he is a lot slower than I am (and I am far from a record breaker on an Erg). So there clearly are issues there...

In rowing, we have a long way to go before we get validated reults across brands of machines....

[Carl Watts]

Subscription costs are a big problem, for some reason people expect it to be free these days.

Zwift recently put up the monthly cost and a few people screamed they were leaving, it costs about one coffee at a café per week over here, so if you cannot afford that then you are just not seriously into riding.

Ultimately rowing has too many other options and the user base is crazy low. Concept 2 should have looked ahead and endorsed a single product, got on board and helped develop it 20 years ago when E-Row first came out, they just could not see the big picture and how it would have enhanced the brand beyond just hardware.

[JaapvanE]

Ultimately rowing has too many other options and the user base is crazy low.

The weekly group rows now contain over a 100 people, both on Saturday and on Sunday, even now (where in the Northern Hemisphere the outdoor season has started). They needed to upgrade their servers as it couldn't handle the load of the group rows anymore a couple of months ago . Whenever I row and regardless of the course I row, I encounter people. Often friends just drop in mid-session (a feature copied by Zwift to their platform). So EXR has significant traction and gains new users daily. And as rowers don't like to move in huge packs and crowding is a potential issue, it is pretty OK.

We raced Head of the Charles in EXR virtually last year in a partnership with HOCR (including medals), World Rowing and British Rowing have become official partners and RP3 recently launched a dedicated eSports version of their rower with EXR on a huge screen. So EXR is making a lot of waves at the moment.

They still have monthly updates which bring new features (outperforming Zwift). Last months they completely redesigned the GUI based on our feedback. We get new routes next week as they expand Lake EXR. Given the space they claimed on the virtual map, it will be big (they moved Lake EXR from a small pond near their office to the Eastern Schelde, which is huge as it is home to the largest storm surge barrier in the world).

Financially they seem to be doing OK. It is a small but very effective team, and their partnerships are also quite solid. They even sponsor Ward Lemmelijn, a six time world champion indoor rowing. So they might not be the money burning machine that Zwift is, requiring tens of thousands of users, but that might not be a bad thing in the long run.

Concept 2 should have looked ahead and endorsed a single product, got on board and helped develop it 20 years ago when E-Row first came out, they just could not see the big picture and how it would have enhanced the brand beyond just hardware.

C2 itself is in a curious position here. They do not actively promote EXR. They seem to focus on their role as a hardware supplier, even promoting the Ergatta connection kit, which is made by a hardware competitor. In essence, they are banking on the notion that doing business in the indoor rowing world requires supporting the PM5. I don't know if that strategy is a valid long term approach, especially when you see RP3 making the right moves.

[RDL]

I'm on machine (Rower data) split, as I am extremely sceptical about EXR splits. They try to correct three things…

Yes. The point really of my post. The reasoning sounds valid but the scepticism remains!

And yes, like you there is an element of being negatively affected by this by being heavyweight. Can’t help feel that I trust C2’s interpretation of data more especially seeing some of the times users have supposedly achieved on the segments although granted that’s probably more related to different machines like you talk about.

Subscription costs are a big problem, for some reason people expect it to be free these days.

Not a problem now but I did fall into this camp. I won’t deny I think the monthly rolling is over priced vs the 6/12 month options however.

Ultimately for me though on a personal level it will come down to how active they are in support and improvement/new features.

I see they are about to drop some new maps though so that’s one area of monotony being addressed.
On the other hand though I think the 2 maps for every competitive event 500/1000/2000 just being a choice of Bled or Boston boring. That’s possibly just me though!

Also whilst it works I find the C2 verified portion a bit ‘weird’. Sets the PM5 up strangely or did for me. No estimated finish and continues the record metres after reaching target, 5000m say, but obviously only logs the 5000m to C2 logbook. Just seems ‘messy’.
Personally if I want to do a verified piece I’ll probably not bother with EXR.

Anyway. In a turn of bad luck for me it’s now a moot point. I have injured my hand in an unrelated incident and it’s looking highly likely I’ll be needing surgery and a lay off. Hospital appointment soon and then I’ll know but for now I’ll let my trial expire and subscribe when I can get back on.
I’ve enjoyed it enough to think I’ll get worth out of it.

[JaapvanE]

Ultimately for me though on a personal level it will come down to how active they are in support and improvement/new features.

They are improving on a monthly basis. Sometimes new features, sometimes new maps. People can drop feature requests in their Discord channel, and slowly you see things being picked up. But they have quite ambitious goals: the International Olympic Committee and World Rowing used them to showcase what eSports could be as an Olympc sport, so those ambitions might play a role in the background.

I see they are about to drop some new maps though so that’s one area of monotony being addressed.

The video I saw is beatiful, and as we can reach it from Lake EXR, it will radically change scenery, really breaking montomy. It is the same effect that they have in Henley, where he tunnel ends in a canyon (in real life, it is just a mountain) with a camp site, rope bridge and waterfall. It really is a welcome break for me.

On the other hand though I think the 2 maps for every competitive event 500/1000/2000 just being a choice of Bled or Boston boring. That’s possibly just me though!

Nope, your not alone on this one. I don't race, but I still find Boston usefull but boring. I row a lot of long distance stuff, and Boston is usefull as it has 19.9K and 19.7K tracks reduce repetition. The devs are bit hung up on replicating stuff that is real (and yeah, Bled and Boston are that boring in real life). The outer track of Bled (Full Circle) is quite OK, I use it often for 10K's. But Henley is by far my favourite, as I like the loop that passes the town, the waterfall, the lock and temple island.

What makes a huge difference for me is the presence of friends. We have a weekly group row (see https://exrgame.com/events) and then I typically end up in a small group of similar paced people. Then rowing is real fun, as I'm more occupied with the group than with the meters.

Also whilst it works I find the C2 verified portion a bit ‘weird’. Sets the PM5 up strangely or did for me. No estimated finish and continues the record metres after reaching target, 5000m say, but obviously only logs the 5000m to C2 logbook. Just seems ‘messy’.
Personally if I want to do a verified piece I’ll probably not bother with EXR.

Yeah, that is an erea where some improvement is welcome. But in discussions they have indicated it is more complex than many of us think.

Anyway. In a turn of bad luck for me it’s now a moot point. I have injured my hand in an unrelated incident and it’s looking highly likely I’ll be needing surgery and a lay off. Hospital appointment soon and then I’ll know but for now I’ll let my trial expire and subscribe when I can get back on.
I’ve enjoyed it enough to think I’ll get worth out of it.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you recover soon and meet you on the virual waters!

[RDL]

They are improving on a monthly basis. Sometimes new features, sometimes new maps. People can drop feature requests in their Discord channel, and slowly you see things being picked up. But they have quite ambitious goals: the International Olympic Committee and World Rowing used them to showcase what eSports could be as an Olympc sport, so those ambitions might play a role in the background.

Not intended as a criticism of the current state. I can see a lots changed and also changes are coming. Maybe I worded poorly but for me I can see it possibly, although not certainly, becoming stale after a while doing the same routes. However even then it’ll beat looking at the PM5!

The video I saw is beatiful, and as we can reach it from Lake EXR

Assuming I saw the same video (on Instagram but I think YouTube too) then yes looks good.

Nope, your not alone on this one. I don't race, but I still find Boston usefull but boring. I row a lot of long distance stuff, and Boston is usefull as it has 19.9K and 19.7K tracks reduce repetition. The devs are bit hung up on replicating stuff that is real (and yeah, Bled and Boston are that boring in real life). The outer track of Bled (Full Circle) is quite OK, I use it often for 10K's. But Henley is by far my favourite, as I like the loop that passes the town, the waterfall, the lock and temple island.

Nice to know I’m not alone!
I’m by no means a racer either but certainly feels like they could ‘easily’ have the races be available on all maps. I say easily but have no idea if it is.
I certainly expected races for Henley.

Speaking of which, I didn’t get around to experiencing Henley or Boston so something for my return.
Henley sounds interesting though.

What makes a huge difference for me is the presence of friends. We have a weekly group row (see https://exrgame.com/events) and then I typically end up in a small group of similar paced people. Then rowing is real fun, as I'm more occupied with the group than with the meters.

Friends. What are those!
In seriousness though, I have none that row/erg so this is an area I haven’t explored.
I noted a couple of names during a British Rowing group row and added them, but no return, which of course they aren’t obliged too, but I can see it adding another element.

Again on the group row I found myself largely alone with my comfortable pace seemingly too slow or fast depending on perspective.
Another area I’ll have to explore properly on my return.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you recover soon and meet you on the virual waters!

Thank you. I’m hoping that it’ll all be minor and I’ll be back in no time. At this point though that’s largely me just being hopeful. In 9 days I’ll have a clearer picture.

My user name on EXR is Manc_808 if you or anyone fancies following/rowing with me at some point. Can’t say how quick or otherwise I’ll be in comparison when I return mind!

[JaapvanE]

Nice to know I’m not alone!
I’m by no means a racer either but certainly feels like they could ‘easily’ have the races be available on all maps. I say easily but have no idea if it is.
I certainly expected races for Henley.

I totally agree, although Henley has a weird length (i.e. 2112 meters) and is quite narrow (max 2 racing lanes). But Boston Head of the Charles is also not present (4702 meters) as an official race yet, although we have raced it as an event. My best guess is that they are looking for a straight line for 2K, with at least 6 lines (where both Boston and Henley run into issues), which is the normal Olympic race format.

In seriousness though, I have none that row/erg so this is an area I haven’t explored.
I noted a couple of names during a British Rowing group row and added them, but no return, which of course they aren’t obliged too, but I can see it adding another element.

Again on the group row I found myself largely alone with my comfortable pace seemingly too slow or fast depending on perspective.
Another area I’ll have to explore properly on my return.

That is a shame, as the biggest fun of a group row is to find some people with similar pace and have them next to you for 45 minutes.

On the saturday group rows we actively manage it: we have three main groups (2:15, 2:25-2:30 and 2:45), sometimes extended with a fourth high pace group (2:00-2:05). And there are a lot of people in between, for example we have some people doing 2:20-2:25, which initially stick with my 2:25-2:30 group, but slowly gets ahead anyway. As it is a group row with over 75 rowers, this kind of structure is easy to implement, especially as we have a lot of regulars. What I typically do is note the people I encountered over 3 times with the same pace, and be friends with them.

The British rowing group typically isn't that well structured as it is a one-off, making this a bit less easy. The RowAlong sessions (i.e. the normal sunday sessions) are a bit too fast for me on a sunday morning. But what you see is that you participate more often, you'll get some people with similar pace. A trick is that you can drop in with a friend at any time they are on the track, making it easier to row together.

My user name on EXR is Manc_808 if you or anyone fancies following/rowing with me at some point. Can’t say how quick or otherwise I’ll be in comparison when I return mind!

My pace normally is around 2:20-2:25/500m (I do a lot of Steady state Zone 2 stuff) and dropped you a friend request. So if you are looking for someone to row with, you can drop in. If you want faster or slower people to row with, dropping a message in the EXR Discord server could make you contact some people. I have people drop in quite often, but sometimes nobody is there. But please realize, there are people spread across timezones, with different work rythems and family obligations, so it might require some coordination to find people who row with you structurally. But there are some groups rowing at 17:00 UK time a couple of times a week (pace usually around 2:15), so depending on your pace, you might find people easier.

[RDL]

I totally agree, although Henley has a weird length (i.e. 2112 meters) and is quite narrow (max 2 racing lanes). But Boston Head of the Charles is also not present (4702 meters) as an official race yet, although we have raced it as an event. My best guess is that they are looking for a straight line for 2K, with at least 6 lines (where both Boston and Henley run into issues), which is the normal Olympic race format.

Well that makes more sense. I have very little knowledge regarding otw rowing but in regards to keeping things ‘real’ I can see EXRs thinking with this then.

On the saturday group rows we actively manage it: we have three main groups (2:15, 2:25-2:30 and 2:45), sometimes extended with a fourth high pace group (2:00-2:05). And there are a lot of people in between, for example we have some people doing 2:20-2:25, which initially stick with my 2:25-2:30 group, but slowly gets ahead anyway. As it is a group row with over 75 rowers, this kind of structure is easy to implement, especially as we have a lot of regulars. What I typically do is note the people I encountered over 3 times with the same pace, and be friends with them.

The British rowing group typically isn't that well structured as it is a one-off, making this a bit less easy. The RowAlong sessions (i.e. the normal sunday sessions) are a bit too fast for me on a sunday morning. But what you see is that you participate more often, you'll get some people with similar pace. A trick is that you can drop in with a friend at any time they are on the track, making it easier to row together.

Well, I could happily sit in any of those groups so something I’ll definitely do once I’m able to get back on.

Is there any sort of expectation or etiquette to these group rows when sitting within a group. I’m thinking in regards to say the segments.
Do you get some who will hammer the 500m segment say then wait for the group or is the expectation that everyone sits on pace?
Probably overthinking there like!

My pace normally is around 2:20-2:25/500m (I do a lot of Steady state Zone 2 stuff) and dropped you a friend request. So if you are looking for someone to row with, you can drop in. If you want faster or slower people to row with, dropping a message in the EXR Discord server could make you contact some people. I have people drop in quite often, but sometimes nobody is there. But please realize, there are people spread across timezones, with different work rythems and family obligations, so it might require some coordination to find people who row with you structurally. But there are some groups rowing at 17:00 UK time a couple of times a week (pace usually around 2:15), so depending on your pace, you might find people easier.

I have accepted your request and followed back and that pace will suit me just fine (hopefully considering I don’t know when I’ll return, but hopefully sooner) as I’d prefer to utilise group/friend rows for SS I feel.

As for time zone I am UK/GMT but a shift worker so I am on at all sorts of times anyway but will keep an eye on those 1700 rows.

Fairly frustrated with all this now. Was enjoying it more than I had anticipated and now this with my hand. I am just hoping I get some positive results from my hospital appointment next week and can return asap.