Alcohol and erging/training

[ahooton]

Completely relate to Rob and Dutch. I did 22 years in the Navy where drinking to excess was expected and encouraged. I would join in and can honestly say every thing negative in my life was down to alcohol. So when I left the navy 4 years ago, I left drinking behind. It has been life changing. My marriage, professional life, health and home life are wonderful, I have got drunk once at a friends funeral and ended up damaging the shower room through grief and drunkenness and having to pay a £700 bill and terrifying my wife. It was the final nail in the coffin of alcohol for me. Though I miss how funny it can be, there are just too many negatives attached to it. And like most people past 40 it absolutely obliterates the hard work put in training!

[robhely]

I grew up in an alcohol heavy environment and for most of my life it was a huge crutch. I drank 5+ nights a week, even when relatively fit from rowing. On at least 2 nights a week, I drank to excess. On 1-2 nights a month, I drank to vast excess. For sure I was a "high functioning" alcoholic. Then one day I just stopped. Everything in my life got way better. Pretty much every problem in my life, personal and professional, has some relationship to booze and life is so much better without it.

Most people aren't problem drinkers like I was, but I still think that even for moderate users alcohol is a toxic drug that we take temporarily to change how we feel when it would be better to address the underlying issue. For some people, it doesn't matter as they control the intake so the toxic effects are manageable. Nevertheless, I think many people drink more than they realize/ admit - probably truly moderate drinkers are a rare breed- although highly trained people including those on here will almost certainly have a much more honest sense of their intake than the general population.

Apologies for the rant; it's something I feel very strongly about. Always happy to chat to anyone in DMs if they want to talk quitting booze. It's the best thing I have ever done.

I've had a similar relationship to alcohol and quit drinking almost a year ago. I was also a high functioning alcoholic; drinking regularly and sometimes heavily while being very fit and active. I'd convinced myself that the drinking was ok because I was negating the negative effects by eating well and maintaining a high level of fitness.

I can drink in moderation, but find that it's better to just not drink at all. That way I don't have to think about it or worry about how much I'm drinking, it's just not on the cards. Yes, I sometimes miss a top notch glass (or in my case bottle) of red, but I've enjoyed many years of excellent wine and am now quite happy to let it go and focus on staying as fit and healthy as I can as I get older.

Research shows that there is no safe level of drinking and I would question the need to use alcohol as a relaxant. Sure, it can also taste good, but so do a lot of alcohol free drinks. As someone else mentioned, it doesn't take much alcohol to negate any training effect from strength or cardio work. When I think back to how fit I was when I was drinking, I can only imagine how much fitter/faster I would have been if doing the same volume of training while not drinking.

If anyone is sitting on the fence about drinking, I'd recommend listening to Andrew Huberman's 2 hour podcast on exactly what alcohol is doing to us - even in "moderate" amounts.

Like with smoking, I think we'll see more and more evidence reaching the mainstream that discourages regular drinking/any drinking. There's an entire industry built around it, so it won't happen overnight.

Personally, giving it up entirely is one of the best things I've ever done.

[HornetMaX]

I enjoy some alcohol (beer, wine, very occasionally some spirits).
I consider my intake as moderate and totally under control (let's say 0.5L beer + half a bottle of wine, per week, probably less).

Just my opinion, but one key point is: I absolutely don't drink it for its effects, I drink it because (and only if) it tastes good.
To me, if you "drink to get (even lightly) drunk", you're on a slippery slope.

That said, very few things are absolutely necessary in life (air, water and, for me, pizza).

What I find sometimes very funny is that some of the ones that say "alcohol is poison" then eat totally crappy food (been 2 years in the US, I've seen stuff I can't unsee).

[p_b82]

I was brought up in an environment where excessive drinking was totally normalised - grandmother was a non-functional alcoholic & father was a functional alcoholic up until his after his first cancer diagnosis. I would be in denial if I pretended I haven't been a functional alcoholic at a few points of my life; the last time coming to a-head when I woke up in the back of an Ambulance after a bender where I fell asleep in the street - and at an age where I def "should know better".
My issue was and still is, after 4 uk pint equivalent of 5% beer I stop being able to make the conscious decision to want another, unless I drink slower than a pint an hour, and so just have it "because". This does become more of an issue if I'm drinking in the evening vs during the day too.

I still drink - but I would say 95% of the time it is below 21 units a week now; I only drink things because I like the flavour and not to "get a buzz".

If you were to look at my "drinks fridge/wine rack/spirit shelf" one might think I'm telling porkies; but just because it's there doesn't mean I have it.

If/when they can make a good 6-15% equivalent for Imperial stouts or ciders (or wine) in no alcohol variations then I'd likely cut it out for good - as I do not like the effects of it, but I really like the flavour. The same goes for brandy/whisk(e)y which I might have a double of once a month or so.

Re training/exercise - I def know that on the days where I do over-indulge then any performance is diminished even at my meagre levels.
I do think however that the fitter you are the more able one's body is to mitigate a little over-indulgence if it is infrequent. Medically it is "healthier" to binge drink - aka consume all your units in one go - and then abstain for the rest of the week - due to the cumulative effect on the liver with daily drinking.
I would expect to see the same dip in performance if you had a pint/glass of wine a night every day of the week as a result.

[iain]

I grew up in an alcohol heavy environment and for most of my life it was a huge crutch. I drank 5+ nights a week, even when relatively fit from rowing. On at least 2 nights a week, I drank to excess. On 1-2 nights a month, I drank to vast excess. For sure I was a "high functioning" alcoholic...

Most people aren't problem drinkers like I was, but I still think that even for moderate users alcohol is a toxic drug that we take temporarily to change how we feel when it would be better to address the underlying issue. For some people, it doesn't matter as they control the intake so the toxic effects are manageable.

Research shows that there is no safe level of drinking and I would question the need to use alcohol as a relaxant. Sure, it can also taste good, but so do a lot of alcohol free drinks. As someone else mentioned, it doesn't take much alcohol to negate any training effect from strength or cardio work.

If anyone is sitting on the fence about drinking, I'd recommend listening to Andrew Huberman's 2 hour podcast on exactly what alcohol is doing to us - even in "moderate" amounts.

As someone who grew up with a high performing alcoholic in the family, I would be surprised if Rob qualifies. AIUI only 4-6% of the population (read of white middle class westerners - the group the work has been done on) who have the predisposition of ever becoming an alcoholic. I don't know much about "binge alcoholics", but most drink to vast excess most days, but I take the point that many more are "problem drinkers" and your comments make sense in this category.

I haven't had the chance to listen to the whole 2 hours, but I watched a couple of the clips and they didn't seem to be that convincing. Huberman's comments are to the "very health conscious" people and I am not sure that the average person would put as high a price on the price of alcohol to their health that his target audience would. The ability for the socially anxious to integrate better and the mildly neurotic to relax IMHO justifies occassional moderate social drinking for those that can stop at that. As to the sporting effects, most recreational athletes can take the minor reductions in performance in their stride and I good night out may well be more beneficial than a better PB.

What many discussions of this miss is that most of the cost of alcohol to society is from use by a small minority of the heaviest users, for the vast majority, I think the benefits and costs of genuinely moderate drinking are more equal.

[RWAGR]

Many inspiring stories here guys. Great to hear.

Re the taste of booze, I recommend the book/ audiobook (I listened to it during steady state!) of The Easy Way to Stop Drinking by Allen Carr. The book is great overall, but for me he dealt with the taste point very well.

Separately, Guinness 0 is actually really, really good IMO. And for summer Heineken 0 is a great drink. You might also try “hoppy water” for something really light and refreshing.

I don’t think non alcoholic versions of spirits or still less wine will ever replicate the real thing, hence the recommendation of Carr’s book above.

[RWAGR]

As someone who grew up with a high performing alcoholic in the family, I would be surprised if Rob qualifies. AIUI only 4-6% of the population (read of white middle class westerners - the group the work has been done on) who have the predisposition of ever becoming an alcoholic. I don't know much about "binge alcoholics", but most drink to vast excess most days, but I take the point that many more are "problem drinkers" and your comments make sense in this category.

I haven't had the chance to listen to the whole 2 hours, but I watched a couple of the clips and they didn't seem to be that convincing. Huberman's comments are to the "very health conscious" people and I am not sure that the average person would put as high a price on the price of alcohol to their health that his target audience would. The ability for the socially anxious to integrate better and the mildly neurotic to relax IMHO justifies occassional moderate social drinking for those that can stop at that. As to the sporting effects, most recreational athletes can take the minor reductions in performance in their stride and I good night out may well be more beneficial than a better PB.

What many discussions of this miss is that most of the cost of alcohol to society is from use by a small minority of the heaviest users, for the vast majority, I think the benefits and costs of genuinely moderate drinking are more equal.

I think - and I say this with genuine respect for a healthy discussion on the topic - for me the error in your thinking Iain is that alcohol doesn’t “cure” social anxiety or personal tension. It temporarily masks it. This has two detrimental effects: (i) it encourages us to avoid addressing the underlying issue - which can normally be done quickly and easily by living a few months without booze; and (ii) it actually makes those issues worse but making us more reliant on the crutch.

When I first quit I was most worried about the effect on my business development. I’m a lawyer (forgive me) and run a practice group that is hugely referral based. It’s a very “boozy conference” heavy area and I thought I would no longer fit in and wouldn’t get as much work. Nonsense. It’s been fine. An adaption sure, but my work life has improved almost as much as my personal life in my sober times.

As for the physical side, like anything that is all bad for you, less is of course less bad. Someone who has one drink a week probably isn’t moving the physical health needle much. And I agree we all make bad choices of one kind or another where our health is concerned. But booze is just such low hanging fruit to give up, it’s why I’ve become such a sobervangelist!

In any event, whatever your choices, I wish you all the best.

[Dangerscouse]

Many inspiring stories here guys. Great to hear.

Re the taste of booze, I recommend the book/ audiobook (I listened to it during steady state!) of The Easy Way to Stop Drinking by Allen Carr. The book is great overall, but for me he dealt with the taste point very well.

Separately, Guinness 0 is actually really, really good IMO. And for summer Heineken 0 is a great drink. You might also try “hoppy water” for something really light and refreshing.

I don’t think non alcoholic versions of spirits or still less wine will ever replicate the real thing, hence the recommendation of Carr’s book above.

I've replaced the occasional 'normal' beer with a Heineken 0.0 (I work for them, so it's a natural choice) but it is a nice drink and quite often, I think it has a placebo effect. Admittedly I only have one drink most nights, so it's not like I'm having to worry about cutting down.

You make a very good point about alcohol just masking the issues, which is something that too many of us seem to be hard wired to do ie take short cuts and not be totally honest with ourselves.

Sobervangelist is a great word!!!

[iain]

...the error in your thinking Iain is that alcohol doesn’t “cure” social anxiety or personal tension. It temporarily masks it. This has two detrimental effects: (i) it encourages us to avoid addressing the underlying issue - which can normally be done quickly and easily by living a few months without booze; and (ii) it actually makes those issues worse but making us more reliant on the crutch.

I agree with what you say, in an ideal world this would be the solution. However you could say this equally of taking pain killers for tension headaches and a large chunk of the medications that are used (both OTC and prescribed). For some people social situations are hard work and positively stressful. Add in that if others are drinking the infantile humour just isn't amusing to the sober and I think the amount of work required for these people to get the rewards of many social situations is unlikely to happen for most of these people. I guess what I am saying is that we shouldn't begrudge wthose who struggle to stand on their feet unaided a crutch even if proper physio might get them standing quicker without.

I agree that people should never feel pressured into drinking and that for some stopping completely is the only solution. I just think that equating drinking with smoking is pushing the point too far and people should be allowed to drink in moderation if they wish.

[robhely]

Just my opinion, but one key point is: I absolutely don't drink it for its effects, I drink it because (and only if) it tastes good.
To me, if you "drink to get (even lightly) drunk", you're on a slippery slope.

This is the difference between drinkers like you and drinkers like me. I absolutely drink for the effects, if I was to be completely honest it seems pointless to me to drink for taste alone. Which is why it makes sense for me to not drink at all. I envy those who can drink for taste alone and drink to a level of moderation that (probably) isn't harmful.

It's interesting what you say about food, I agree that it makes no sense to demonise alcohol and then eat enough bad foods to become overweight or even obese. I see a lot of parallels between alcohol addiction and food addiction. Most unhealthy foods taste good, but many people still eat them to excess.

[robhely]

I agree that people should never feel pressured into drinking and that for some stopping completely is the only solution. I just think that equating drinking with smoking is pushing the point too far and people should be allowed to drink in moderation if they wish.

Smoking is worse than drinking, but it can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that both are worse for you than not indulging at all. But this is somewhat irrelevant considering how many other things are also bad for us to varying degrees depending on consumption levels. Moderation is the key where possible, but I do think that in certain cultures it has become normalised to drink beyond safe levels.

[Dutch]

Just my opinion, but one key point is: I absolutely don't drink it for its effects, I drink it because (and only if) it tastes good.
To me, if you "drink to get (even lightly) drunk", you're on a slippery slope.

This is the difference between drinkers like you and drinkers like me. I absolutely drink for the effects, if I was to be completely honest it seems pointless to me to drink for taste alone. Which is why it makes sense for me to not drink at all. I envy those who can drink for taste alone and drink to a level of moderation that (probably) isn't harmful.

I never drank until I was 24 as I hated the taste of any alcohol, then alcopops came out and I was hooked, drank purely for the effect as you say . After about a yr anything that was alcohol would suffice mixed with anything, Funnily enough i started to smoke at the same time, having never smoked before drinking and i reckon that killed my taste buds. i never did more than 5 cigs a day as i did not really like it. Did that 3 yrs and then drinking another and packed the lot in.
When I see people standing round swilling wine in their mouth and wetting them selves over how it tastes i just see drug addicts trying to be sophisticated. I just do not get that lifestyle. I see people go to beer festivals and loving the taste and its just not me. Im wired very different But each to their own.

[iain]

I absolutely don't drink it for its effects, I drink it because (and only if) it tastes good. To me, if you "drink to get (even lightly) drunk", you're on a slippery slope.

When I see people standing round swilling wine in their mouth and wetting them selves over how it tastes i just see drug addicts trying to be sophisticated. I just do not get that lifestyle. I see people go to beer festivals and loving the taste and its just not me. Im wired very different But each to their own.

I'm not sure people are fully aware of why they drink. I certainly like the taste of good red wines and beers and very rarely drink to excess (food is another issue, when I stop rowing for even a few months I become overweight despite trying to cut back...). But I do prefer full bodied reds and stronger ales, is this a coincidence? I am unsure, but I definitely Don't drink to get drunk and so stop when mildly inebriated, rarely having more than 2 drinks, but that may be 5 units.

[HornetMaX]

When I see people standing round swilling wine in their mouth and wetting them selves over how it tastes i just see drug addicts trying to be sophisticated.

And no second thought about this coming through as a broad generalization and more than a bit judgemental, of course.

No biggie at any rate, some people still see the earth as flat so yeah, to each their own, as you said.

[hikeplusrow]

The responses to this post have been tremendous - many thanks to you all.

As someone who suffers from anxiety, I've found that a drink certainly 'takes the edge off', and has been more effective in that regard than the antidepressants I've taken in the past. However, the positive effect only lasts as long as I'm 'under the influence' - which, as a moderate drinker, is not very long - just a few hours a week.

Having weighed the pros and cons, I've decided to knock it on the head completely. My priority is my health and fitness, and I want to give myself every chance on both counts. I've been involved in endurance sports for as long as I can remember, and what this involvement has given me over the years, physically and mentally, can't be overstated.

But I'll never give up coffee

Thanks again, Tim