Layback help

[phlegmtheorem]

TLDR: I'm a noob, and my back hurts is it because my layback is too far?

I'm a complete beginner to rowing. I've been an athlete in various sports my whole life competing competitively and once upon a time professionally. I am coming back from a series of rough injuries over the past year and a half. I stumbled into the rowing machine in our gym last week while looking for a low impact cardio solution. I'm 6'2, 185lbs 40yrs, and in good shape.

My first day on the rower (as has been documented numerous times on this forum by other noobs) I set the resistance all the way up and went to town running up and down the slide at 32 spm for almost an hour. I was quite pleased, as I got the cardio that I was looking for - and figured the butt pain would go away in a few sessions when I got used to the seat. Then when I got home I started comparing my actual pace with what it "should have been", and all of a sudden the competitive part of me kicked in and I was no longer satisfied with my workout. I managed 13km in around 56 minutes.

I watched some videos on youtube, studied the motion of clearing my hands quickly, not T-rexing, and creeping back up the slide. Clearly now an expert, I went back to the gym determined to get a 20min 5K. I deemed this goal reasonable with my size and level of fitness. I set the resistance at 4, and managed to get 5K in 20:30ish, with 21 spm average. I didn't feel like I was pushing myself all that hard, and tried to focus on the rhythm and technique with my hands. That's reasonable progress... but

The problem, is my back is sore and embarrassingly so is my neck. I assume that my neck hurts from watching myself in the mirror over my right shoulder for 20+ minutes (seems cruel to put a mirror over there)... but the back doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I can only assume that my layback is too far - or I'm over reaching at the catch, or both.

Has anyone else experienced this? Recommendations?

[Dangerscouse]

Welcome to the forum.

Back issues aren't uncommon, nor unavoidable, for newbies. There's a lot of possible issues, not least your twisted posture , and sometimes it's just your body adapting to the stress and strain.

You might be using muscles, tendons, and ligaments that haven't been trained properly for a while, and coupled with a previous high-level (elite?) athletic background, you're quite likely to over extend yourself.

It sounds like you've been using the rower for about a week or two. Is that correct? You do need to be careful and build up slowly, which, as you'll know, is anathema to your ego.

How far back is your layback? I doubt that's a significant issue, but you ideally want to row with an 11 o clock to 1 o clock motion. Some of us do lean back quite far, but they're usually under six feet. Overcompression might be a bigger issue as your back can be placed into a weakened position when your shins are past vertical and you're overreaching at the catch.

Your previous injuries might also be the reason for the pain, especially having had them for 18 months as that indicates a lot of time recuperating.

[JaapvanE]

You might take a look at this series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzAqt1rHW8M She actually has a series about back pain and how to deal with it while rowing. Might help.

For me, my biggest issue was death gripping the handle (leading to stiff shoulders and neck issues) and roting over the lower back instead of the hips.

[Dangerscouse]

For me, my biggest issue was death gripping the handle (leading to stiff shoulders and neck issues) and roting over the lower back instead of the hips.

I forgot about that. Definitely worthwhile learning to just hook the fingers over the handle. There's no performance benefits from gripping it tightly, apart from if you don't you let go of course.

[MysticMelody]

With your experience in sports, it is evident that you possess the motivation and self-control needed for advancement. Rowing is completely different, To start with, your back and neck feeling sore could be a sign you are pushing too much at the layback part. It feels good to lay back with much force, but if you do it too much, your lower back might get hurt. Better to not go so far and keep the angle of leaning more balanced and careful. Additionally, be careful not to stretch too much when you are trying to catch the row because it could cause unnecessary strain on your back. It is important to focus on how you perform each movement and perhaps think about asking a coach or someone who has experience in rowing for advice. Remember it is important to have a strong core because it helps keep your body stable and safeguards your back. Relax a little, make small adjustments to how you do things, and soon you will be moving along with ease.

[jamesg]

up and down the slide at 32 spm for almost an hour.

That's more than enough to cause neck ache. It's the inertial forces you have to generate to move your head back and forth 2000 times, accelerating and decelerating twice each stroke.

In any case you started at the wrong end. The basic rule in rowing is learn how, then train. Even just 20 good strokes can reduce us to jelly; that's how we know they were good. A few one minute intervals are enough to start with.

See:
https://insideindoor.com/training/training-plans/

[Willy.VdW]

I find it impossible to apply too much layback while I row strapless.
Perhaps rowing strapless can be a test?

[iain]

I find it impossible to apply too much layback while I row strapless.
Perhaps rowing strapless can be a test?

If you try this start cautiously, if you don’t finish the stroke correctly you can go over backwards!

[jamesg]

Long layback was abandoned last century, even in GB. Last saw it around 1959. What does it cost to pick ourselves up again, and how much work was done on the oar in those last few inches? Far better get forward and use the legs sooner, they're much stronger.

[p_b82]

When you say sore what level of pain are we talking about?

Is it a "I can't move without shooting warning pain" or "this is an ache a step beyond fatigued muscles"?

I had the latter for a good 3 months when I first started out - and my fitness base was/is a lot lower than yours - just due to getting used to using unfamiliar muscles coupled with a historically dodgy lower back.

I very recently had the former pain levels that forced me to take 10 days off the erg entirely, and about a month to fully recover - caused in part, I believe to poor posture and technique.

Really focus on "sitting tall" especially at the catch - keep your lower back straight, sit with your hips/torso hinged forwards, not back on your tailbone, and try not to over-compress at the catch to steal extra stroke length that way.
Also check/work on your sequencing; if you are performing your hip hinge before you've completed most of the leg drive, you will be putting more stress on the lower back.
Also worth trying not to pull too hard with the arms at the finish too - as again it can transfer additional load down the back.

During my injury rehab I had such poor flexibility I could not do any hip hinging at all - I couldn't bend and touch my knees let alone get anywhere close to my ankles/feet/toes, so rowed with a fixed vertical back.
It highlighted how I was opening my back too early previously and had been curling my lower spine when my posture slipped when tired - bad habits that crept in I feel I've since corrected.

[Dangerscouse]

I find it impossible to apply too much layback while I row strapless.
Perhaps rowing strapless can be a test?

If you try this start cautiously, if you don’t finish the stroke correctly you can go over backwards!

Definitely. It's a strange feeling to start with, but it does get easier with practice

[KeithT]

I layback prob a little more than I should but I don't get back pain from it. Back pain can be caused by using your back too early instead of legs and over compression and a whole host of other items more likely than excess layback - unless of course you are doing a forceful lay back. Hard to tell without seeing but as others have said might just need to get used to proper form and adapt. With your athletic background and build I think you will improve rapidly.

[Willy.VdW]

I find it impossible to apply too much layback while I row strapless.
Perhaps rowing strapless can be a test?

If you try this start cautiously, if you don’t finish the stroke correctly you can go over backwards!

Definitely. It's a strange feeling to start with, but it does get easier with practice

It was indeed strange in the beginning, but now it's easy (as far as rowing will ever become easy )

[phlegmtheorem]

What an awesome forum. Thank you for all the supportive comments and suggestions. I am absolutely going for too much too fast. As many of you pointed out, I need to relax and learn how to do it properly before I challenge myself too much.

After watching some videos (thank you for the links) and checking my form at the gym this morning, I was rounding my lower back when I started to drive with my legs and then arching my back and leaning backwards before my legs were close to straight. Sitting tall, then focusing on maximizing the power from my legs before I do anything else helped a bunch. I tried a lot of just leg rowing too, which is shockingly more efficient than what I was doing before (and embarrassingly not all that much slower).

The back pain was more in the "step beyond fatigued muscles" type of pain, which I think is actually explained by rounding my back as I drove with my legs then arching at the layback. Sort of like "bad form deadlifting" type of pain without the extreme load. I'm confident that hinging the hips instead with upright posture after completing the leg drive is going to sort that out.

I was definitely death gripping the handle too - it feels odd to just hook the fingers, but I'll get used to it.

Can't wait to get this down. I'm a week into this and already loving it!

[Dangerscouse]

I was definitely death gripping the handle too - it feels odd to just hook the fingers, but I'll get used to it.

Can't wait to get this down. I'm a week into this and already loving it!

We all death grip to start with as it makes sense, but it just leaks energy. Maybe try to gradually release your grip?

I always suggest a great way to build a mind muscle connection is to row with alternate power through your legs. For example, row with 70/30 dominance on your left leg for one stroke, then swap to the right leg, then row 50/50 and repeat for as long as you want to.

This gives you a better idea of what it should feel like driving through your legs, so it's more of a push than a pull ie jumping horizontally.

I also recommend that you occasionally keep an eye on your breathing, especially for longer, less intense sessions (the really tough ones are all about survival). I wouldn't be surprised if you end up breathing too shallowly over the course of time. Every few minutes is good.

Also do a shoulder shake at the same time. Tension in parts of your body, especially your shoulders will creep in unnoticed, which also leaks power and energy. Trying to stay loose but tense enough is an art that can be missed off the checklist.

I've got a feeling you're going to make very rapid progress. Your desire to improve & learn, coupled with your athletic background are massively encouraging. If you stay patient and humble as you seem to be doing, it will pay dividends in the future.