Concurrent training challenges

[robhely]

My goals for this year are to gain muscle mass as well as well as improve my times on the erg and increase my V02 max. Ideally, I'd like to be sitting just below the upper limit of the LW cap of 75kg (currently ~72kg, started at 70kg last year). Aside from other reasons to gain strength/muscle mass, I really think it will help with my erging - especially on the shorter distances.

The issue I'm having is fitting in a good strength training routine with enough rowing volume. I'm only available to train 5 days per week and last week experimented with the following, with the rowing and gym work all in the same 1.5 - 2 hour sessions:

Day 1
6000m UT2
1 hour upper body weights (7 - 10 reps / 3 sets)

Day 2
7000m UT2
1 hour lower body weights (7 - 10 reps / 3 sets)

Day 3
7000m UT2
1 hour upper body weights (7 - 10 reps / 3 sets)

Day 4
Intervals: 5 x 3min/3r
1 hour lower body weights (7 - 10 reps / 3 sets)

Day 5
7000m UT2
1 hour stability training (bodyweight + weights)

Obviously combining the high intensity intervals session with leg day wasn't ideal, but it wasn't terrible either. On the other days, I found that rowing for ~30mins then doing weights felt OK, but I do wonder if I could have lifted more had I not been slightly fatigued from the rowing.

I've read that mixing cardio and weights in the same session can have a detrimental effect on (ultimately) both activities, so I'm concerned that I won't be getting the maximum benefits from lifting weights after UT2 sessions. I'd probably want to do longer sessions than 7k as well, last year I was regularly doing 10k or more.

There is the possibility of doing 2 sessions per day and getting the rowing done early in the mornings, my only concern with that is that it would be in a fasted state as there's no way I'd be able to cram in food that early in the morning (I don't like to eat until at least 2 hours after waking up). I've read up on rowing in a fasted state and whilst I think I'd be able to manage it for UT2, I think it would definitely affect speed work/intervals and I'd be concerned that it was resulting in weight loss, which I don't want!

I suspect my UT2 sessions aren't quite as 'relaxed' as they could be; I usually aim for 2k + 20 pace, but often lately this is putting me at 78% of MHR (~140bpm), which could be too high. I could imagine going slower for longer sessions, but would I be getting any gains from doing a 30 minute row at 125 - 130bpm?

I'm rowing because I thoroughly enjoy it and it's such a good way to maintain fitness, but I do want to continually strive for PBs, like that sub 7 2k that eluded me last year! And perhaps a FM attempt.

I'd be interested in other people's experience with managing training programs focussed on hypertrophy as well as rowing gains.

[Sakly]

My recent strength routine in the gym is 3 days per week, Monday, Thursday, Saturday. These are very intense sessions containing strength exercises Squat, deadlift, pull and push in horizontal and vertical planes at first (3 exercises per session), then going for some volume with mainly bodyweight exercises with a pattern of 8 rounds 25s load, 45s rest. As examples: ring pushups, Trx horizontal bodyweight rows, jumping lunges, jumping squats, jackknives, hollow body holds - stuff like this - 4 exercises, push, pull, legs, core each session.
On one day we exchange the lower body (legs, core) stuff for intervals of 8x500 r2 or 4x1k r3:30.
The other days I incorporate the steady stuff on the erg.

With this pattern I gained 3kg within the last 3 month (without having this as a goal...). But also gained a lot of strength, so not bodyfat (probably a little)

[hikeplusrow]

My recent strength routine in the gym is 3 days per week, Monday, Thursday, Saturday. These are very intense sessions containing strength exercises Squat, deadlift, pull and push in horizontal and vertical planes at first (3 exercises per session), then going for some volume with mainly bodyweight exercises with a pattern of 8 rounds 25s load, 45s rest. As examples: ring pushups, Trx horizontal bodyweight rows, jumping lunges, jumping squats, jackknives, hollow body holds - stuff like this - 4 exercises, push, pull, legs, core each session.
On one day we exchange the lower body (legs, core) stuff for intervals of 8x500 r2 or 4x1k r3:30.
The other days I incorporate the steady stuff on the erg.

With this pattern I gained 3kg within the last 3 month (without having this as a goal...). But also gained a lot of strength, so not bodyfat (probably a little)

Mightily impressive. Out of interest, how long do your strength sessions take?

[Sakly]

My recent strength routine in the gym is 3 days per week, Monday, Thursday, Saturday. These are very intense sessions containing strength exercises Squat, deadlift, pull and push in horizontal and vertical planes at first (3 exercises per session), then going for some volume with mainly bodyweight exercises with a pattern of 8 rounds 25s load, 45s rest. As examples: ring pushups, Trx horizontal bodyweight rows, jumping lunges, jumping squats, jackknives, hollow body holds - stuff like this - 4 exercises, push, pull, legs, core each session.
On one day we exchange the lower body (legs, core) stuff for intervals of 8x500 r2 or 4x1k r3:30.
The other days I incorporate the steady stuff on the erg.

With this pattern I gained 3kg within the last 3 month (without having this as a goal...). But also gained a lot of strength, so not bodyfat (probably a little)

Mightily impressive. Out of interest, how long do your strength sessions take?

Thx
Gym sessions are typically taking 2h 30mins including warmup and cooldown.
Strength exercises 4 sets starting every 3:30 need approx 15mins each, so finished in ~45mins. The 8 rounds of 25/45 exercises need ~10mins each and some time to take a breath, so all 4 need approx ~60min.
Warmup typically 15min skierg or rower, some mobility drills and shoulder warmup, ~30min.
Some days short distance TTs on rower or skiErg before starting the exercise part, depends

[robhely]

My recent strength routine in the gym is 3 days per week, Monday, Thursday, Saturday. These are very intense sessions containing strength exercises Squat, deadlift, pull and push in horizontal and vertical planes at first (3 exercises per session), then going for some volume with mainly bodyweight exercises with a pattern of 8 rounds 25s load, 45s rest. As examples: ring pushups, Trx horizontal bodyweight rows, jumping lunges, jumping squats, jackknives, hollow body holds - stuff like this - 4 exercises, push, pull, legs, core each session.
On one day we exchange the lower body (legs, core) stuff for intervals of 8x500 r2 or 4x1k r3:30.
The other days I incorporate the steady stuff on the erg.

With this pattern I gained 3kg within the last 3 month (without having this as a goal...). But also gained a lot of strength, so not bodyfat (probably a little)

So you're training 7 days per week with 3 gym days and 4 rowing days? And incorporating intervals on one gym day. What sort of volume are you pulling on the steady state days? Do you feel like the intervals are compromised by the intensive upper body exercises within the same session? Do you do the intervals before or after the rest of the workout?

[Sakly]

My recent strength routine in the gym is 3 days per week, Monday, Thursday, Saturday. These are very intense sessions containing strength exercises Squat, deadlift, pull and push in horizontal and vertical planes at first (3 exercises per session), then going for some volume with mainly bodyweight exercises with a pattern of 8 rounds 25s load, 45s rest. As examples: ring pushups, Trx horizontal bodyweight rows, jumping lunges, jumping squats, jackknives, hollow body holds - stuff like this - 4 exercises, push, pull, legs, core each session.
On one day we exchange the lower body (legs, core) stuff for intervals of 8x500 r2 or 4x1k r3:30.
The other days I incorporate the steady stuff on the erg.

With this pattern I gained 3kg within the last 3 month (without having this as a goal...). But also gained a lot of strength, so not bodyfat (probably a little)

So you're training 7 days per week with 3 gym days and 4 rowing days? And incorporating intervals on one gym day. What sort of volume are you pulling on the steady state days? Do you feel like the intervals are compromised by the intensive upper body exercises within the same session? Do you do the intervals before or after the rest of the workout?

Normally I have one day off per week, so typically 3 gym and 3 steady rowing sessions +the intervals in one of the gym sessions (always at the end). Intervals without strength training could be better, but last time I had my fastest 500s average even after heavy exercises, so probably not a big issue for me
Rarely I have two sessions at a day, rowing in the morning, gym in the evening.
Since I increased the intensity of the gym sessions, I need a bit more recovery which is off a bit lately, I reduced the steady state volume, but it was also related to available time as well. It will soon get back to normal with the 3/3 ratio.
My steady state sessions are typically 60min with a rate of 18, sometimes 17 or 19, rarely 20. R18 is typically 2k+22/23

[jcross485]

To the OP - coming from a strength background into endurance type stuff, I've found that by neglecting strength work and some quality sessions on the erg, my actual erg performance suffered compared to dropping erg volume and replacing it with strength work a few times a week. Finding a way to do both consistently, while recovering well enough to progress over time, is what would be best. Total volume that you can tolerate or recover from will be different from others; I would say if you're progressing, you're in a good spot.

That said, to address a few of the more specific points in the original post (and just my humble $.02) -

- Strength and muscle mass is important for the erg, probably more so than most other endurance modalities.

- If you can train 5x a week and can account for 1.5-2 hours per session, you have more than enough time to fit in quality strength work and quality erg work. Personally, I would recommend doing 4ish steady state sessions a week with strength work after (steady state work might take a small percentage off max strength while you become adjusted but you will adjust). One day would be a more intense or quality erg session - a thorough warm up, hard intervals, thorough cool down. You don't need to do much strength work on this day; maybe some core work if you're inclined.

- Rowing fasted vs. fed will not change weight loss (IMO). Total calories in vs. total calories out over the course of the day or week is what matters. You can row fasted and still gain weight and strength over time if you're eating enough from the time you finish until you go to bed. I personally prefer training fasted, esp doing more aerobic work, as it seems like my HR stays a tad lower than when I am fed.

- For the steady state work, I would slowly work to getting up to about 60:00 total like Sakly mentioned. I have found that it seems to be a good amount of work that doesn't take so much out of you that you can do it frequently but it's still long enough to get a lot of the adaptations people are looking for. If doing strength after, these would be pushing the 2 hour mark if you did 60:00 steady state and 60:00 strength work but it fits within the parameters given.

- Don't worry about "interference" between rowing and strength work. Unless you are chasing that upper 1% of performance as an elite athlete, you're better off just doing the work than worrying about the potential interference (IMO). That said, I would still prioritize doing the erg work before the strength work.

- With the amount of volume you are doing, having your UT2 or steady state work a bit higher is probably not hurting anything if you're recovering. I really think the polarization of training is important if you can't recover from work being a bit harder or if you're doing heaps of volume. On the erg, even 100k a week isn't what I would personally consider heaps of volume - I've done it before and have not had to worry about keeping HR down around 130 or so. I would look at a couple of things to determine whether or not UT2/SS work is too intense. Are your intense erg sessions (intervals) getting faster over time? Is your strength work progressing so that you're getting stronger over time? If both of these are true, don't stress about brining UT2/SS work to a lower intensity.

- With all due respect, saying "7-10 reps, 3 sets" tells us very little about the strength program. If you want to gain muscle mass and strength, you will need to follow some type of progressive plan. If you go into the gym and, for example, do 3 sets of 8 pullups, twice a week for months on end, without adding sets, adding reps, or adding weight, you'll get to a point where it's no longer a stimulus to get bigger or stronger. The Pete Plan is a very popular rowing program where you hit certain workouts over a three week period that progress in some fashion, then you repeat the cycle over so you can measure progress over time. Strength work is no different. If you're able to fit in 4x strength sessions a week, the Wendler 5/3/1 program might work great for you - one main compound lift a day that progresses over 3 weeks before resetting. You can tailor all of the supplemental lifts and accessory lifts to what you want after. The program is great in that it provides a base structure with principles and a progression plan; it's downfall is that it leaves a lot to the "user" so you need to make sure that, no matter how you customize it, you're still adhering to the principles.

I am currently training about 6x a week; my goal is to be a bit more balanced as I've gone from 100% purely strength focused to 100% purely endurance focused in the past and found things about each I didn't like. I am training to maintain or even gain a tad of muscle, keep aerobic fitness high, and improve my top end performance on the erg (ie. 2k now, then 5k/6k). I am rarely training more than about 75:00 per day right now. Here is what a week might look like for me:

Day 1: Strength Work (Wendler 5's Pro w/ FSL - Standing Press, Deficit Deadlift), Accessory Work (some mix of Pull Ups, Push Ups, Walking Lunges, Ab Wheel Rollouts; generally wearing a weight vest).

Day 2: "Threshold" Intervals (3k Warm Up, 6-10 x 1k w/ 1:00 rest, 3k Cool Down)

Day 3: Aerobic Row (15k steady)

Day 4: Strength Work (Wendler 5's Pro w/ FSL - Standing Press, Deficit Deadlift), Accessory Work (some mix of Pull Ups, Push Ups, Walking Lunges, Ab Wheel Rollouts; generally wearing a weight vest).

Day 5: "Speed" Intervals (3k Warm Up, 6-10x 500m w/ 2:00 rest, 3k Cool Down)

Day 6: Aerobic Row (15k steady)

[robhely]

My recent strength routine in the gym is 3 days per week, Monday, Thursday, Saturday. These are very intense sessions containing strength exercises Squat, deadlift, pull and push in horizontal and vertical planes at first (3 exercises per session), then going for some volume with mainly bodyweight exercises with a pattern of 8 rounds 25s load, 45s rest. As examples: ring pushups, Trx horizontal bodyweight rows, jumping lunges, jumping squats, jackknives, hollow body holds - stuff like this - 4 exercises, push, pull, legs, core each session.
On one day we exchange the lower body (legs, core) stuff for intervals of 8x500 r2 or 4x1k r3:30.
The other days I incorporate the steady stuff on the erg.

With this pattern I gained 3kg within the last 3 month (without having this as a goal...). But also gained a lot of strength, so not bodyfat (probably a little)

So you're training 7 days per week with 3 gym days and 4 rowing days? And incorporating intervals on one gym day. What sort of volume are you pulling on the steady state days? Do you feel like the intervals are compromised by the intensive upper body exercises within the same session? Do you do the intervals before or after the rest of the workout?

Normally I have one day off per week, so typically 3 gym and 3 steady rowing sessions +the intervals in one of the gym sessions (always at the end). Intervals without strength training could be better, but last time I had my fastest 500s average even after heavy exercises, so probably not a big issue for me
Rarely I have two sessions at a day, rowing in the morning, gym in the evening.
Since I increased the intensity of the gym sessions, I need a bit more recovery which is off a bit lately, I reduced the steady state volume, but it was also related to available time as well. It will soon get back to normal with the 3/3 ratio.
My steady state sessions are typically 60min with a rate of 18, sometimes 17 or 19, rarely 20. R18 is typically 2k+22/23

Really interesting to hear about your routine, it's inspiring! You must have gained a lot of muscle mass as you're 2cm shorter than I am but 6kg heavier. I'm sure that helps significantly on the erg.

I've never tried rating below 20 (my SS is usually 20, sometimes 21), I'll give that a go as I try and increase volume.

Aside from the intervals, you're confirming my suspicions that optimising rowing and gym work requires doing them on separate days. I may have to look at squeezing in another day.

[robhely]

Thanks so much for taking the time to break this down for me, it's new terrain for me and opinions from others with experience is invaluable as I attempt to get the balance right. It's a complex 'program', not one that your average gym instructor would be able to help me design.

- For the steady state work, I would slowly work to getting up to about 60:00 total like Sakly mentioned. I have found that it seems to be a good amount of work that doesn't take so much out of you that you can do it frequently but it's still long enough to get a lot of the adaptations people are looking for. If doing strength after, these would be pushing the 2 hour mark if you did 60:00 steady state and 60:00 strength work but it fits within the parameters given.

I've got the time to push my workouts to 2 hours or longer on the 5 days I work out, so looking forward to pushing the SS sessions up to 1 hour.

- Don't worry about "interference" between rowing and strength work. Unless you are chasing that upper 1% of performance as an elite athlete, you're better off just doing the work than worrying about the potential interference (IMO). That said, I would still prioritize doing the erg work before the strength work.

I am very relieved to hear this. I'm most definitely not aiming to be competitive (and I'm too old anyway), but I want to be confident that I'm getting some gains from both strength work and rowing. I'm willing to accept a small amount of compromise from concurrent training, but I imagine that overall this will be significantly beneficial compared to what I was doing, which was 100% rowing, a bit of mountain biking + trail building and nothing else.

Are your intense erg sessions (intervals) getting faster over time? Is your strength work progressing so that you're getting stronger over time?

I definitely get faster over time with intervals and PB attempts. It's hard to say with the strength work as I've just started, but yesterday I was lifting heavier weight than a week ago.

- With all due respect, saying "7-10 reps, 3 sets" tells us very little about the strength program. If you want to gain muscle mass and strength, you will need to follow some type of progressive plan. If you go into the gym and, for example, do 3 sets of 8 pullups, twice a week for months on end, without adding sets, adding reps, or adding weight, you'll get to a point where it's no longer a stimulus to get bigger or stronger. The Pete Plan is a very popular rowing program where you hit certain workouts over a three week period that progress in some fashion, then you repeat the cycle over so you can measure progress over time. Strength work is no different. If you're able to fit in 4x strength sessions a week, the Wendler 5/3/1 program might work great for you - one main compound lift a day that progresses over 3 weeks before resetting. You can tailor all of the supplemental lifts and accessory lifts to what you want after. The program is great in that it provides a base structure with principles and a progression plan; it's downfall is that it leaves a lot to the "user" so you need to make sure that, no matter how you customize it, you're still adhering to the principles.

I'm definitely keen to follow a progressive plan and will look into the Wendler program. I used to work out years ago and always found that the progression was quite rapid; I gained muscle mass quickly and the amount of weight I could lift increased steadily. I'm almost 54 now, so obviously it will take more work. I'm taking Creatine and trying to pack in as much protein as possible per day.

Whilst I could easily get up super early in the morning and row up to 60 minutes and them do a strength workout later in the day, my preference would be to do it all in a 2 - 3 hour session later in the day. I find that I just generally don't row well early in the morning and I definitely can't lift as much weight.

Interesting that you've explored 100% strength and 100% endurance training previously and arrived at an erg focussed balance. I've been almost 100% endurance focussed for the last few decades, but I can really see the limitations of this on the erg, especially on shorter distances. One of the things I love about the erg is how it demands that perfect balance between strength and cardio, fitness alone just won't cut it. It also likes tall people, but there is nothing I can do about that haha.

[Sakly]

So you're training 7 days per week with 3 gym days and 4 rowing days? And incorporating intervals on one gym day. What sort of volume are you pulling on the steady state days? Do you feel like the intervals are compromised by the intensive upper body exercises within the same session? Do you do the intervals before or after the rest of the workout?

Normally I have one day off per week, so typically 3 gym and 3 steady rowing sessions +the intervals in one of the gym sessions (always at the end). Intervals without strength training could be better, but last time I had my fastest 500s average even after heavy exercises, so probably not a big issue for me
Rarely I have two sessions at a day, rowing in the morning, gym in the evening.
Since I increased the intensity of the gym sessions, I need a bit more recovery which is off a bit lately, I reduced the steady state volume, but it was also related to available time as well. It will soon get back to normal with the 3/3 ratio.
My steady state sessions are typically 60min with a rate of 18, sometimes 17 or 19, rarely 20. R18 is typically 2k+22/23

Really interesting to hear about your routine, it's inspiring! You must have gained a lot of muscle mass as you're 2cm shorter than I am but 6kg heavier. I'm sure that helps significantly on the erg.

I've never tried rating below 20 (my SS is usually 20, sometimes 21), I'll give that a go as I try and increase volume.

Aside from the intervals, you're confirming my suspicions that optimising rowing and gym work requires doing them on separate days. I may have to look at squeezing in another day.

Now I'm at ~82kg, so I gained these starting from 78kg, but didn't update my signature yet - so I gained even more weight, ~4kg in the last 4 months. Only a little on the belly, but overall more muscle.
My strokes feel stronger, I can get the splits down to 1:16/17 in the beginning for the shorter distances now (not for long time, but before I could barely see 1:22) and I can hold lower splits for longer.
My CVS is not being compromised from last months training, my steady session yesterday was a 60min r18, averaging 2:01.4 at an average heart rate of 140 (this is 75% for me).
Training is going really well these days

[robhely]

Now I'm at ~82kg, so I gained these starting from 78kg, but didn't update my signature yet - so I gained even more weight, ~4kg in the last 4 months. Only a little on the belly, but overall more muscle.
My strokes feel stronger, I can get the splits down to 1:16/17 in the beginning for the shorter distances now (not for long time, but before I could barely see 1:22) and I can hold lower splits for longer.
My CVS is not being compromised from last months training, my steady session yesterday was a 60min r18, averaging 2:01.4 at an average heart rate of 140 (this is 75% for me).
Training is going really well these days

It is going extremely well, those numbers are impressive. I don't even think I could pull below 1:30 for short bursts at the moment and I'd be looking at 2:10 - 2:15 for a 60 r20 @ HR75%.

Must try an r18 though, perhaps the slightly longer recovery will keep the HR down a bit.

[Sakly]

Must try an r18 though, perhaps the slightly longer recovery will keep the HR down a bit.

If you want to go for the same splits, I'm not convinced that this will work. Reducing r20-21 to r18 will need to increase the stroke power by over 10% to get the same splits and this could lead to a significant higher fatigue, if you are not used to the harder strokes with more effort. If you reduce your splits by reducing the rate, then yes, it will reduce your HR as the overall load is getting less.

Using a higher or lower rate at the same pace is also a kind of personal preference based on your abilities/capabilities. If you are more on the fit side with less strength, then a higher rate could fit better. Stronger, but not so fit a lower rate can be better. If you are both, then you can choose

[hikeplusrow]

Must try an r18 though, perhaps the slightly longer recovery will keep the HR down a bit.

If you want to go for the same splits, I'm not convinced that this will work. Reducing r20-21 to r18 will need to increase the stroke power by over 10% to get the same splits and this could lead to a significant higher fatigue, if you are not used to the harder strokes with more effort. If you reduce your splits by reducing the rate, then yes, it will reduce your HR as the overall load is getting less.

Using a higher or lower rate at the same pace is also a kind of personal preference based on your abilities/capabilities. If you are more on the fit side with less strength, then a higher rate could fit better. Stronger, but not so fit a lower rate can be better. If you are both, then you can choose

I must be an exception to this. I've got good cardio, due to my running/cycling background, but I'm not particularly strong - even given my age (63) and weight (70kg). I use a very low DF (sub 90), but really struggle to rate high - eg my UT2 is 16/17 and UT1 17/18.

[iain]

...I don't even think I could pull below 1:30 for short bursts at the moment and I'd be looking at 2:10 - 2:15 for a 60 r20 @ HR75%.

I'm sure that you could with a high enough rating. For a sprint you are working mainly anaerobically and so breathing once per stroke if fine. The snaking chain is disconcerting but ultimately works and holding sub-1:30 at R60+ isn't that impressive. That said, for a sensible start to a shorter piece >200m not sure if that kind of start would help as it is very inefficient.

[robhely]

I'm sure that you could with a high enough rating. For a sprint you are working mainly anaerobically and so breathing once per stroke if fine. The snaking chain is disconcerting but ultimately works and holding sub-1:30 at R60+ isn't that impressive. That said, for a sensible start to a shorter piece >200m not sure if that kind of start would help as it is very inefficient.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the "snaking chain"? I'm aware that to get below 1:30 in a sprint would probably involve short, ugly strokes to start off.