Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[btlifter]

It certainly does. Would you mind sharing approximate numbers for reference? I know you have an elite 2k - what’s your “weak stroke” steady state, 2k+x?

My 2k was apprxox. 490w (fit, tho definitely not 'elite'). Steady state is most typically 210w at r22/3.

[RWAGR]

It certainly does. Would you mind sharing approximate numbers for reference? I know you have an elite 2k - what’s your “weak stroke” steady state, 2k+x?

My 2k was apprxox. 490w (fit, tho definitely not 'elite'). Steady state is most typically 210w at r22/3.

Thank you- that’s hugely appreciated.

[agross29]

I’ve got a couple questions around seat pads and hand chalk if anyone has any advice.

I’d ditch the seat pad all together. Over time, your body will adjust. Thats exactly what I did. Plus the angle is changed with a pad. Since ditching the pad, I’ve done a few marathons and a 100k and dont miss it. As for gloves, its all personal preference. During endurance events I’ll use neoprene pads from the pull and dip store on amazon. I’m not a fan of chalk since it gets all over everything and its tough to eat with it during ultra events.

[Dangerscouse]

Great point guys. My fear with rowing slow at higher SR is that it will weaken my stroke power. I guess you can't train everything at once...

Don't worry about that Rob. You can train that on shorter intervals or at least re-address it when you're all done.

As Cam ideally shows, it's not a problem as long as you don't fully neglect it.

[Dangerscouse]

I’ve got a couple questions around seat pads and hand chalk if anyone has any advice.

Firstly around seatpads. I’ve always used a Hornet Watersports seatpad, it’s only very thin but has always been ok for me. Even on my 50k which was getting on for four hours it was fine. However today on just 25k I started getting quite uncomfortable and it didn’t feel as effective.
Do we think this is just where the foam has lost its sponginess after so much use? Does anyone use anything else they recommend instead?

This is the one I’ve been using currently;

https://amzn.eu/d/6cu3b3S


Secondly on chalk/glove usage. I normally use standard chalk as I had some from rock climbing anyway. I also sometimes wear fingerless gloves that I had from cycling. Combining these two has worked well enough from me. However ideally I’d like to stop using the gloves altogether as it can make the hands quite warm which is probably counter intuitive. However with just basic chalk I find after an hour or so it’s pretty much all gone.

I’ve seen a lot of people on here mention they use liquid chalk. Do you think this is better? How many hours would you normally use this for from one application? Are any brands better than others?

Thanks in advance for any tips

I'd try to get used to not using a seat pad if you can. I used to get the usual arse ache, but I now don't use anything. It might be my physiology that helps, but I also used the ache as a good source of endurance. Focusing on coping and just enduring it, psychologically helped me toughen up a bit.

I found the ache plateaued and then eventually disappeared, albeit after quite a few hours, and then about three years into doing longer distances it totally disappeared.

I've never used normal chalk, but I do recommend liquid chalk. I buy Fitness Mad chalk from Amazon, which works well. It doesn't stop your hands from sweating, but it does make it better. It also transfers and slightly builds up on to the handle if you own your own erg. I'd also recommend draping a hand towel over the monorail, just below the handle stirrup. Practice grabbing it and draping it over the handle during rowing, which helps as a temporary solution. If you use it for too long it can then become a bit of a hindrance as your hands will rub against it.

[RWAGR]

Thanks everyone for the help. I rowed 3 x 40 min on 2R pieces today (2k+23, 100k pace, 2K+23). Focused on sticking to the time and rowing at a higher but lighter SR. Lo and behold, the HR was significantly better and overall the lighter strokes just felt infinitely more manageable. This was especially true in the middle 100k pace rep where I felt like I could go on forever... I guess we'll be putting that to the test!


2:00:00.0 28,687m 2:05.4 177 909 22 137
40:00.0 9,746m 2:03.1 188 945 22 140
40:00.0 9,201m 2:10.4 158 842 21 128
40:00.0 9,741m 2:03.1 187 944 23 143

[GlennUk]

Thanks everyone for the help. I rowed 3 x 40 min on 2R pieces today (2k+23, 100k pace, 2K+23). Focused on sticking to the time and rowing at a higher but lighter SR. Lo and behold, the HR was significantly better and overall the lighter strokes just felt infinitely more manageable. This was especially true in the middle 100k pace rep where I felt like I could go on forever... I guess we'll be putting that to the test!


2:00:00.0 28,687m 2:05.4 177 909 22 137
40:00.0 9,746m 2:03.1 188 945 22 140
40:00.0 9,201m 2:10.4 158 842 21 128
40:00.0 9,741m 2:03.1 187 944 23 143

FWIW my view is that there is a generally direction of travel (aka advice) re HR/spm based on OTW rowing which has constraints that are not present on the erg.

I am unsure what the equivalent to a FM or 100k would be in racing a 2k for example, but when erging endurance distances i would suggest that the athlete find what works for them, and not be to bound to 'convention' especially with respect to spm and df.

FWIW, i am also finding (having ditched my HR monitor) that erging to RPE is beneficial for me.

It may be just me, but knowing that my HR is at a particular level which is close to my perceived anaerobic threshold is detrimental, rather than risk a failure i would ease off. I am finding now that my capacity to work on the boundary is enhanced because i am not considering a metric that in fact is a proxy for how much work i can do, but rather working with my body.

The conclusions i have come to recently, not just when training for endurance events but generally, is that constraining ourselves by methods used (for good reason) for OTW rowing is unhelpful (or at least may be) on an erg, and that it is likely better that one determines ones own specific 'settings' for df/spm and working to RPE, and is likely to bring benefits.

The down side is that if like me you have spent the many years relying on the HRM to determine you work levels and outputs, spm, and df that are determined but how one trains for OTW, you will have to get used to doing without.

[Elizabeth]

There is training and there is competing, and sometimes the two necessitate a different approach. I don't like that chart that associates heart rate zones with things like SPM and sweat level; they're not necessarily linked. Glenn also makes great points about otw vs erg.

I like...
Steady state at r19-20
An all-out marathon+ effort at r24-25, and faster at the end
An all-out 2k at r33, and faster at the end

Different approaches work for different people; Cam rates higher than me for steady state and also uses a significantly higher drag factor than me.

I have used chalk once, liquid chalk, and don't remember it making much of a difference. But it was given to me by a fellow competitor who regularly uses it in her training, so I assume she saw enough of a benefit to bring it to a competition.

[Dangerscouse]

I don't like that chart that associates heart rate zones with things like SPM and sweat level; they're not necessarily linked.

I sweat so easily, I'm sure I can do it on demand. If there was any link between sweat level and performance I'd be a multiple WR holder.

Having seen so many screenshots I'm in total agreement that there is no dependable correlation between HR zones and SPM. It's never as simplistic as that to define with all of the variables, between each person and any given day.

[iain]

Congrats to all the successes above. I am interested in the 50k to 100k time differential. My only 100k+ row hit stomach issues at 55k so was slower than it should have been. FWIW this was using the same drink I had used in a 24 hr Tandem 18 months before, the mistake was not trying it out since and my tolerance built for higher sugar before the 24hr had worn off!

Re HR never monitored on the 111k. But for fastest FMs consistently >90% max for most of the row. "Anaerobic Zone" is misleading. When rowing we will all be producing energy anaerobically depending on our muscle fibre ratio, it is just that we are clearing it between strokes on longer rows. The important point is that the level flatlines, but many can sustain high lactate levels for sustained periods.

Anyone else want to do a lengthy Tandem? I really "enjoyed" my 24hr and would like to do another as a training focus maybe in a year (just starting back at present). Would even consider 1mm if anyone else is game. I could substitute with a really long interval session, but the comradery would help. Based in UK and not particularly fast 55 year old, but not in it for record but charity so would be happy to row with anyone.

FWIW tandems involve the rower being used continually so for very long rows require very long stints &/or sleep deprivation, although happy to break ranking rules if partner is. Also lead to extreme PIA at start of intervals, but it clears up fast.

[RWAGR]

60k today. Final long piece before I attempt the 100k in 2 weeks. This was fine from a cardio perspective. The main issue was that my body just seemed to break down in waves throughout the piece. First my hamstrings would hurt, then my neck, then my back. In all cases, however, the pain subsided or at least didn't get worse after a few k. Those pains, and the mental games that inevitably happen when you're sitting on the erg for hours, will be the true challenge here. I also need to be more disciplined at sticking to my race pace of 2.15 (basically rowing each 5k split at 2.12 and then having 30 seconds' rest). Today was too fast which was fine for a 60k but I don't think I could have done another 40k at that pace.

4:25:27.8 60,000m 2:12.7 150 815 21 132
21:40.5 5,000m 2:10.0 159 847 22 126
22:07.2 10,000m 2:12.7 150 815 21 126
22:01.7 15,000m 2:12.1 152 821 22 125
22:00.9 20,000m 2:12.0 152 822 22 125
22:03.7 25,000m 2:12.3 151 819 22 128
22:09.2 30,000m 2:12.9 149 812 21 130
22:23.7 35,000m 2:14.3 144 796 21 133
22:12.2 40,000m 2:13.2 148 809 22 135
22:17.6 45,000m 2:13.7 146 803 22 135
22:21.7 50,000m 2:14.1 145 798 23 138
22:20.2 55,000m 2:14.0 145 800 23 139
21:49.1 60,000m 2:10.9 156 836 23 148

[Dangerscouse]

60k today. Final long piece before I attempt the 100k in 2 weeks. This was fine from a cardio perspective. The main issue was that my body just seemed to break down in waves throughout the piece. First my hamstrings would hurt, then my neck, then my back. In all cases, however, the pain subsided or at least didn't get worse after a few k. Those pains, and the mental games that inevitably happen when you're sitting on the erg for hours, will be the true challenge here. I also need to be more disciplined at sticking to my race pace of 2.15 (basically rowing each 5k split at 2.12 and then having 30 seconds' rest). Today was too fast which was fine for a 60k but I don't think I could have done another 40k at that pace.

4:25:27.8 60,000m 2:12.7 150 815 21 132
21:40.5 5,000m 2:10.0 159 847 22 126
22:07.2 10,000m 2:12.7 150 815 21 126
22:01.7 15,000m 2:12.1 152 821 22 125
22:00.9 20,000m 2:12.0 152 822 22 125
22:03.7 25,000m 2:12.3 151 819 22 128
22:09.2 30,000m 2:12.9 149 812 21 130
22:23.7 35,000m 2:14.3 144 796 21 133
22:12.2 40,000m 2:13.2 148 809 22 135
22:17.6 45,000m 2:13.7 146 803 22 135
22:21.7 50,000m 2:14.1 145 798 23 138
22:20.2 55,000m 2:14.0 145 800 23 139
21:49.1 60,000m 2:10.9 156 836 23 148

That's a great effort Rob. These long sessions are more about mental resilience than physical, as you can all too easily convince yourself it's unsustainable and detrimental, and seemingly insignificant decisions become massively magnified.

Always tell yourself it's manageable, as you'll easily convince yourself it isn't. It's meant to be horrible, as that's why not many people ever think about it, nevermind complete it. When you accept it will be horrible, you can frame your expectations accordingly, but it is a fine balance as you also don't want to let those fears overpower your resilience.

[Dangerscouse]

Anyone else want to do a lengthy Tandem? I really "enjoyed" my 24hr and would like to do another as a training focus maybe in a year (just starting back at present). Would even consider 1mm if anyone else is game. I could substitute with a really long interval session, but the comradery would help. Based in UK and not particularly fast 55 year old, but not in it for record but charity so would be happy to row with anyone.

FWIW tandems involve the rower being used continually so for very long rows require very long stints &/or sleep deprivation, although happy to break ranking rules if partner is. Also lead to extreme PIA at start of intervals, but it clears up fast.

I'm wondering if this is something I could contemplate. I have considered a 24hr row about six years ago, but I'm really not sure about how the sleep deprivation would affect me.

[iain]

Anyone else want to do a lengthy Tandem? I really "enjoyed" my 24hr and would like to do another as a training focus maybe in a year (just starting back at present). Would even consider 1mm if anyone else is game. I could substitute with a really long interval session, but the comradery would help. Based in UK and not particularly fast 55 year old, but not in it for record but charity so would be happy to row with anyone.

FWIW tandems involve the rower being used continually so for very long rows require very long stints &/or sleep deprivation, although happy to break ranking rules if partner is. Also lead to extreme PIA at start of intervals, but it clears up fast.

I'm wondering if this is something I could contemplate. I have considered a 24hr row about six years ago, but I'm really not sure about how the sleep deprivation would affect me.

That would be fantastic, but I do need to get in shape first although I will never be in your class. I found a 24hr tandem was a lot easier than 100k at 8S/500m slower target. I am happy to do a couple of 2 hour stints through the night if you want a brief sleep, but not sure how easy it would be to sleep in any event. Have a think about it and PM me.

[RWAGR]

For those of you who have done 100k+ rows: how often, if at all, did you pee? I didn’t go or feel the need to go at all during my 60k, despite taking on (but no doubt sweating out) adequate fluids. Trying to figure out my pit stop strategy for the 100k and whether I need to plan on a trip to the restroom.