Steady state pacing

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Dangerscouse
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by Dangerscouse » January 27th, 2024, 10:25 am

hikeplusrow wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 7:10 am
I'm from a running background, and it had always puzzled me why elite marathoners did race pace training as intervals rather than continuous runs. The answer is that it's simply the initial part of a progression - both physical and, critically, psychological - the 'confidence' you talk about. So they may start with mile repeats at race pace, but they end up doing a HM at race pace - gradually transitioning, as the weeks go by, from intervals to continuous work.
For the longer stuff, the loneliness of the long distance runner / rower is very real. You're capable of so much more than you realise, and that's the fine line between believing and doubting as it's you against you in those moments.

I've had so many moments of doubt that I can't count them, and sometimes they're there for a reason, you simply can't do it, but more often than not it's your inner chimp trying to protect you.

When you know you can, compared to never having done it, those doubts aren't quite as strong as they could be, especially when you know you can go faster as well. It's a potent mixture to feed off when all you want to do is HD.

I think people downplay how horrible it is for someone who is exceptionally good to achieve what they do; I know I have been guilty of it when I'm knee deep in a horrific session. My pain is more intolerable than theirs, and they'd also HD if they were in my shoes :D

In reality, for example, that sub 7hrs 100k that Elizabeth did, or the sub 6 2k that Cam (btlifter) did will have been absolute torture in lots of moments, as they still feel the same as us, but their ability is higher along with their mental fortitude to endure. You need a bulletproof mindset along with exceptional fitness to be exceptional.

Mental weakness, like water, exploits the cracks and finds the weakest points.

Apologies to the OP for going off topic, but it's still relevant to 2k racing
51 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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Elizabeth
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by Elizabeth » January 27th, 2024, 10:40 am

Regardless of training with watts or pace, I would expect a range of watts to be able to drive the progress that you're looking to get out of the session. But I would expect the following sessions to all have similar RPE, at the same wattage:

5k continuous, open rate

4x2k/5:00r, open rate
Allows an additional 3k of work during the session

5x1250/5:00r, rate 20
Allows you to train a stronger stroke

There are a variety of variables that you can manipulate, and using intervals allows you to push some of the variables to the "harder" end. Or you may do 5x1000 knowing that it's relatively easier than the 5000 and this easier to recover from, and that could make sense in the context of the overall training cycle.
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hikeplusrow
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by hikeplusrow » January 27th, 2024, 11:24 am

Elizabeth wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 10:40 am
Regardless of training with watts or pace, I would expect a range of watts to be able to drive the progress that you're looking to get out of the session. But I would expect the following sessions to all have similar RPE, at the same wattage:

5k continuous, open rate

4x2k/5:00r, open rate
Allows an additional 3k of work during the session

5x1250/5:00r, rate 20
Allows you to train a stronger stroke

There are a variety of variables that you can manipulate, and using intervals allows you to push some of the variables to the "harder" end. Or you may do 5x1000 knowing that it's relatively easier than the 5000 and this easier to recover from, and that could make sense in the context of the overall training cycle.
Interesting you mention work around the 5k, as I've been thinking this might be a great focus for developing my speed - it's a distance I 'enjoy' ( :lol: ) too. I've also been inspired by CBs recent sub 16 qualifying performance in Australia - magnificent.

hikeplusrow
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by hikeplusrow » January 27th, 2024, 12:47 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 10:25 am
hikeplusrow wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 7:10 am
I'm from a running background, and it had always puzzled me why elite marathoners did race pace training as intervals rather than continuous runs. The answer is that it's simply the initial part of a progression - both physical and, critically, psychological - the 'confidence' you talk about. So they may start with mile repeats at race pace, but they end up doing a HM at race pace - gradually transitioning, as the weeks go by, from intervals to continuous work.
For the longer stuff, the loneliness of the long distance runner / rower is very real. You're capable of so much more than you realise, and that's the fine line between believing and doubting as it's you against you in those moments.

I've had so many moments of doubt that I can't count them, and sometimes they're there for a reason, you simply can't do it, but more often than not it's your inner chimp trying to protect you.

When you know you can, compared to never having done it, those doubts aren't quite as strong as they could be, especially when you know you can go faster as well. It's a potent mixture to feed off when all you want to do is HD.

I think people downplay how horrible it is for someone who is exceptionally good to achieve what they do; I know I have been guilty of it when I'm knee deep in a horrific session. My pain is more intolerable than theirs, and they'd also HD if they were in my shoes :D

In reality, for example, that sub 7hrs 100k that Elizabeth did, or the sub 6 2k that Cam (btlifter) did will have been absolute torture in lots of moments, as they still feel the same as us, but their ability is higher along with their mental fortitude to endure. You need a bulletproof mindset along with exceptional fitness to be exceptional.

Mental weakness, like water, exploits the cracks and finds the weakest points.

Apologies to the OP for going off topic, but it's still relevant to 2k racing
Yes, I've noted your comments before regarding self-doubt, and the importance of mental toughness and the psychological aspects. Needless to say, I completely agree that people can achieve more than they think.

I've just responded to another comment with reference to rowing's greatest ambassador - CB. I don't know if you've been watching his series of videos from Australia, but there was one recently where he was unable to row due to hand issues. Having decided to substitute that day's rowing with a 3/4 hour stationery bike session (!), he discovers that the Wattbike is damaged and temporarily beyond repair. Answer: find another stationery bike! This he does, and completes the session. The takeaway is that the session WILL be done, come what may - and, believe me, that length of time on a stationery bike is nothing to look forward to (especially for your a*s) "Deal with the cards you're dealt."

Elizabeth
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by Elizabeth » January 27th, 2024, 1:18 pm

It's funny you should mention Cam Buchan; he does my programming (including that series of r20 sessions from above) and has told me to slow down to a 2:12 steady state pace at times when I am struggling with heat. And he practices what he preaches.
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hikeplusrow
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by hikeplusrow » January 27th, 2024, 1:27 pm

Yes, I did know that he coached you.

JaapvanE
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by JaapvanE » January 27th, 2024, 1:33 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 1:18 pm
It's funny you should mention Cam Buchan; he does my programming (including that series of r20 sessions from above) and has told me to slow down to a 2:12 steady state pace at times when I am struggling with heat. And he practices what he preaches.
I absolutely love Cam Buchan. His openness about issues is inspiring, and indeed he is rowings best ambassador.

He helped me see the light when I kept my normal zone 2 pace despite HR being too high after a 3 week break. He struggled with the same approach (keep the pace, hope the HR will normalize) which didn't work for both of us. He lead the way and showed that respecting the HR (keep the HR, the pace will normalize) will work. Great guy.

hikeplusrow
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by hikeplusrow » January 27th, 2024, 2:06 pm

JaapvanE wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 1:33 pm
Elizabeth wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 1:18 pm
It's funny you should mention Cam Buchan; he does my programming (including that series of r20 sessions from above) and has told me to slow down to a 2:12 steady state pace at times when I am struggling with heat. And he practices what he preaches.
I absolutely love Cam Buchan. His openness about issues is inspiring, and indeed he is rowings best ambassador.

He helped me see the light when I kept my normal zone 2 pace despite HR being too high after a 3 week break. He struggled with the same approach (keep the pace, hope the HR will normalize) which didn't work for both of us. He lead the way and showed that respecting the HR (keep the HR, the pace will normalize) will work. Great guy.
Yes, I've been using a UT2 wattage that was based on a 2k score I did 18 months ago. I couldn't get anywhere near that score now, so the UT2 was about 10 watts too high. I've had to get real.

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Yankeerunner
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by Yankeerunner » January 27th, 2024, 2:34 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 1:18 pm
It's funny you should mention Cam Buchan; he does my programming (including that series of r20 sessions from above) and has told me to slow down to a 2:12 steady state pace at times when I am struggling with heat. And he practices what he preaches.
I saw that episode on the WattBike when he was answering questions live on Instagram (I think it was Instagram). Noticed that one of the questions came from Elizabeth Gilmore of the Yam Squad.

Cam also was talking about zones, and stated that fewer zones are better than more. I think he recommended 3 rather than 5 or more. Just recently on Amby Burfoot's Run Long Run Healthy website he also cited a prominent exercise physiologist recommending the same thing.
55-59: 1:33.5 3:19.2 6:55.7 18:22.0 2:47:26.5
60-64: 1:35.9 3:23.8 7:06.7 18:40.8 2:48:53.6
65-69: 1:38.6 3:31.9 7:19.2 19:26.6 3:02:06.0
70-74: 1:40.2 3:33.4 7:32.6 19:50.5 3:06:36.8
75-76: 1:43.9 3:47.7 7:50.2 20:51.3 3:13:55.7

hikeplusrow
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by hikeplusrow » January 27th, 2024, 2:49 pm

Yankeerunner wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 2:34 pm
Elizabeth wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 1:18 pm
It's funny you should mention Cam Buchan; he does my programming (including that series of r20 sessions from above) and has told me to slow down to a 2:12 steady state pace at times when I am struggling with heat. And he practices what he preaches.
I saw that episode on the WattBike when he was answering questions live on Instagram (I think it was Instagram). Noticed that one of the questions came from Elizabeth Gilmore of the Yam Squad.

Cam also was talking about zones, and stated that fewer zones are better than more. I think he recommended 3 rather than 5 or more. Just recently on Amby Burfoot's Run Long Run Healthy website he also cited a prominent exercise physiologist recommending the same thing.
Yes, the multitudinous zone thing is getting seriously out of hand.

JaapvanE
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by JaapvanE » January 27th, 2024, 3:26 pm

hikeplusrow wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 2:06 pm
Yes, I've been using a UT2 wattage that was based on a 2k score I did 18 months ago. I couldn't get anywhere near that score now, so the UT2 was about 10 watts too high. I've had to get real.
I initially determined my steady state zone 2 pace by 70% max HR, and then looked what happened on long pieces (HM and HM+). On a normal session I can keep my HR stable in the high zone 2 for the entire piece. On a good day it even stays in the lower zone 2 (so I can push a bit harder on the pace that day). After a month I evaluate what the steady state pace for the next month should be.

hikeplusrow
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by hikeplusrow » January 27th, 2024, 3:29 pm

JaapvanE wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 3:26 pm
hikeplusrow wrote:
January 27th, 2024, 2:06 pm
Yes, I've been using a UT2 wattage that was based on a 2k score I did 18 months ago. I couldn't get anywhere near that score now, so the UT2 was about 10 watts too high. I've had to get real.
I initially determined my steady state zone 2 pace by 70% max HR, and then looked what happened on long pieces (HM and HM+). On a normal session I can keep my HR stable in the high zone 2 for the entire piece. On a good day it even stays in the lower zone 2 (so I can push a bit harder on the pace that day). After a month I evaluate what the steady state pace for the next month should be.
Yep, I'm starting to think that regular evaluation is the answer.

Cyclingman1
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by Cyclingman1 » January 27th, 2024, 6:29 pm

One thing that is quite noticeable about these posts is that the rowing goals are vastly different. The type and amount of training as well the overall outlook for someone focusing on 2K and rowing maybe 25K a week has to be tremendously different from someone rowing up to 100K and all points in between. Of course, some can do it all.

Regarding mental toughness: One sees frequent commentary about dreading doing 2Ks. No wonder, 2Ks are like a mile on a track. A lot of pain. That is one reason for faster, shorter training for a 2K focus: getting used to the discomfort. So-called steady state rowing does not evoke the same apprehension and discomfort, and, therefore in a way, is less demanding of mental toughness.

I had an opportunity to chat with Amby Burfoot with Jeff Galloway in the mid-80s at Runner's World. Pretty cool visit.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

jamesg
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by jamesg » January 28th, 2024, 3:18 am

That is one reason for faster, shorter training for a 2K focus
Training trains speed, which is made up of stroke force, length and rating. It's hard to use all three at race rate or faster, so if that's what we do, something else has to give way: distance.

There's a very old post by Xeno somewhere, describing what he did in the last two months before Atlanta.

If I do LSS I'll have to drop all three: to say 18-20, 300N, net length 1m; which is max 20*300/60 = 100W and a 5W' stroke at 1.25W/kg.

Like a fastish hilly walk for an hour. Must try it on the erg too. 100W is about 5 times my BMR, so it must have some effect.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week. Fading fast.

G-dub
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Re: Steady state pacing

Post by G-dub » January 28th, 2024, 11:22 am

The older I get, the more I agree with Jim:)

When I started my meager erging, I was riding cross country mountain biking hard. Pushing hills as hard as I could. Not knowing anything else. It enabled me to go hard on the erg and most of my progress was almost immediate. I then got caught up in all the research and prescriptions and figured my path to my goals was in longer and slower. In the process I got more and more averse to the uncomfortable feeling of going 90-100%. The longer meters wasn’t a silver bullet - I’m not sure it did much for me except make training more comfortable

But I’ve also gotten older, which makes it even harder to “go there”. Time to give it one more shot and build my courage to embrace the horrible feeling
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 192 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
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