Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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cherwenka
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by cherwenka » December 5th, 2023, 3:24 pm

GlennUk wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 4:59 am
it is likely that the best strategy IME is to use a lower spm than you might otherwise for the standard distances, and the df (as opposed to damper position) should be whatever your training took place at.
Good advice. I kept my stroke rate at 20.5, just slightly lower than my default 21-22 for my longer workouts. I was naturally slowing down to 19 but wanted to keep the wheel spinning so forced it up to 20.5. Felt like my strength would give out before my cardio. I'd be happy to repeat the same stroke rate again.

For my drag factor, I dropped from my standard 130 down to 125. Probably more psychological than anything; I just didn't want to tax my muscles too much. Felt fine.

For those wondering about their ideal drag factor, the test I did months ago was revealing. I simply pulled ten short pieces: 500m/2:30r x 5 then 0:30/1:30r x5. I adjusted my drag factor after each interval: 115, 135, 125, 120, 130. Kept my splits the same on each 500 (1:44.5) and noted my perceived exertion. It felt lightest for me at a df 130. Then the :30 pieces cemented it. Eyes closed, stroke rate 32 for each, and the 130 was the clear winner. Fastest split and easiest perceived exertion. I've since improved my technique--was getting a little lazy without the feedback of my single or a coach--so I'm not sure I'd get the same results today.
52M/228lbs/6'4"/Vancouver Canada. 2023/24 rankings: 100m=0:16.4; 1min=337m; 500m=1:33.5; 1k=3:28; 4min=1,156m; 2k=6:59; 5k=18:59; 6k=23:18; 30min=7,749m; 10k=39:08; 60min=15,423m; HM=1:24:10; FM=2:56:07. IG @cherwenka

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cherwenka
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by cherwenka » December 5th, 2023, 3:28 pm

GlennUk wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 5:10 am
cherwenka wrote:
December 3rd, 2023, 2:01 am
If you plug your phone in, erg data will keep it awake and then in turn it keeps the pm5 awake.
My iPhone was plugged into a power source but it wasn't connected by wire to my PM5. I've heard a few issues in this forum about C2's ErgData wiping out a workout like mine did, even when it's plugged in. I've since converted to ErgZone.
52M/228lbs/6'4"/Vancouver Canada. 2023/24 rankings: 100m=0:16.4; 1min=337m; 500m=1:33.5; 1k=3:28; 4min=1,156m; 2k=6:59; 5k=18:59; 6k=23:18; 30min=7,749m; 10k=39:08; 60min=15,423m; HM=1:24:10; FM=2:56:07. IG @cherwenka

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cherwenka
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by cherwenka » December 5th, 2023, 3:30 pm

RWAGR wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 12:48 pm
Just started day 1 of 100k training.
Give 'er! Keep us posted on the training. I'm going to focus on my 2k score until the worlds, then revisit my distance training in March/April. Will hit my 2nd attempt at the 100km before the 2023/24 season ends on April 30th.
52M/228lbs/6'4"/Vancouver Canada. 2023/24 rankings: 100m=0:16.4; 1min=337m; 500m=1:33.5; 1k=3:28; 4min=1,156m; 2k=6:59; 5k=18:59; 6k=23:18; 30min=7,749m; 10k=39:08; 60min=15,423m; HM=1:24:10; FM=2:56:07. IG @cherwenka

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cherwenka
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by cherwenka » December 5th, 2023, 3:42 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 7:07 am
Andrew, well-done on the 70k, and what a disappointment that it timed out.
Thanks! At that point, my stomach basically called it quits anyway. I would have plowed through with frequent breaks just to finish but I'm not sure I'd have made it. When I came back from the bathroom and saw the blank screen, I actually wasn't all that disappointed. The breaks were killing my splits; I was way off my 2:08 target, which I held up to 50k. I don't even know how many times I stopped from 50km-70km.
Elizabeth wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 7:07 am
Has this nutrition plan worked for you on other endurance events? I'm trying to figure out an approach to something and know that I start being repulsed by sweets after a while.
Yes, it's the exact plan I followed for 3 full Ironmans but in those cases, I had a ton of long training rides using the same nutrition. That wasn't the case on Saturday. I blindly assumed I'd be ok but at some point, my system just said nope to all that new untested sweetness. For my 2nd attempt, I'll test out the exact nutrition plan on a bunch of marathons and 50's leading up to it.
52M/228lbs/6'4"/Vancouver Canada. 2023/24 rankings: 100m=0:16.4; 1min=337m; 500m=1:33.5; 1k=3:28; 4min=1,156m; 2k=6:59; 5k=18:59; 6k=23:18; 30min=7,749m; 10k=39:08; 60min=15,423m; HM=1:24:10; FM=2:56:07. IG @cherwenka

Dangerscouse
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » December 5th, 2023, 3:49 pm

RWAGR wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 12:48 pm
Just started day 1 of 100k training. Planning to row it March 2nd or 3rd. No doubt I’ll be asking all the usual questions (that have been answered many times before) on here.
Now you've got me thinking about it too!! I wrote a small article on the 100k and my experience & learnings. PM with your email address if you want me to send it to you, or I could post it again on the forum if people think it might be helpful?
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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RWAGR
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by RWAGR » December 5th, 2023, 4:09 pm

Sent! But yes I think posting the document here would be a great resource Stu.
Rob, 40, 6'1", 188 lbs. Potomac, MD, USA (albeit English-Australian originally).

2k: 6:45.4 (2023)
5k: 17:46.7 (2024)
30': 8,182 (2024)
10k: 36:49.9 (2024)
60’: 15,967 (2024)
HM: 1:20:27.4 (2024)
FM: 2:48:21.4 (2024)
100k: 7:43:28.2 (2024)

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cherwenka
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by cherwenka » December 5th, 2023, 7:03 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 3:49 pm
I could post it again on the forum if people think it might be helpful?
Would love to see that, Stu. Tons for us to learn from your experience.
52M/228lbs/6'4"/Vancouver Canada. 2023/24 rankings: 100m=0:16.4; 1min=337m; 500m=1:33.5; 1k=3:28; 4min=1,156m; 2k=6:59; 5k=18:59; 6k=23:18; 30min=7,749m; 10k=39:08; 60min=15,423m; HM=1:24:10; FM=2:56:07. IG @cherwenka

penkethj
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by penkethj » December 6th, 2023, 8:38 am

cherwenka wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 7:03 pm
Dangerscouse wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 3:49 pm
I could post it again on the forum if people think it might be helpful?
Would love to see that, Stu. Tons for us to learn from your experience.
+1

Would love to have a crack at it one day if elbow gets better. Would definitely find it helpful to hear about your experience in that distance.
36 HWT; 6' 3"; 2k= 7:29; 5k= 18:50; 10k= 39:45; 30mins= 7,668m; 60mins= 14,654m; HM= 1:26:06; FM= 3:14:20; 50k= 3:49:42;
My log

penkethj
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by penkethj » December 6th, 2023, 8:45 am

Elizabeth wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 9:05 am
penkethj wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 7:29 am
Elizabeth wrote:
December 5th, 2023, 7:07 am



The PM5 only counts up for "Just Row", right? I've done a single variable interval of 100k before. I have never tried to "Just Row" for more than about 35k.
Yeah I wouldn’t be doing it as ‘Just Row’. Would be on ergdata which does count down. I just didn’t know if you could put a single distance of 50,000m-100,000m on ErgData and that would work, or whether you would have to choose intervals.
I just verified. PM5 and the ErgData app will not allow a single distance of 100,000m. They both will allow it to be programmed as "variable intervals" with a single interval of 100,000m. You will not get any split data. It will be rankable.

ErgZone will allow a single distance of 100,000m with splits. They have a C2 Rankings group that has a prebuilt 100k with 5k splits.
Just had a think about this, is there a reason everyone says to do a variable interval and put 100,000m, rather than putting 10 x 10,000m with 0 rest? Or 5 x 20,000m with 0 rest. Just thinking that would give you splits then wouldn’t it?
36 HWT; 6' 3"; 2k= 7:29; 5k= 18:50; 10k= 39:45; 30mins= 7,668m; 60mins= 14,654m; HM= 1:26:06; FM= 3:14:20; 50k= 3:49:42;
My log

RWAGR
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by RWAGR » December 6th, 2023, 9:29 am

is there a reason everyone says to do a variable interval and put 100,000m, rather than putting 10 x 10,000m with 0 rest? Or 5 x 20,000m with 0 rest. Just thinking that would give you splits then wouldn’t it?
Have been wondering the same. The reason I can see is that C2’s rules for the 100k only states the “single variable interval” for the set up. They don’t list 10x(10k/0r) as an option. Not sure however if that’s a hangover from earlier PM software issues or if there is something that happens between intervals - even with 0 rest - that might affect the proper timing of the piece.
Rob, 40, 6'1", 188 lbs. Potomac, MD, USA (albeit English-Australian originally).

2k: 6:45.4 (2023)
5k: 17:46.7 (2024)
30': 8,182 (2024)
10k: 36:49.9 (2024)
60’: 15,967 (2024)
HM: 1:20:27.4 (2024)
FM: 2:48:21.4 (2024)
100k: 7:43:28.2 (2024)

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Aquaman
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Aquaman » December 6th, 2023, 10:49 am

RWAGR wrote:
December 6th, 2023, 9:29 am
is there a reason everyone says to do a variable interval and put 100,000m, rather than putting 10 x 10,000m with 0 rest? Or 5 x 20,000m with 0 rest. Just thinking that would give you splits then wouldn’t it?
Just curious - do you do all this in one setting? If not, does the PM5 or Ergdata save your progress and allow you to come back to continue or finish where you left off? I've not seen that functionality myself, but I'm not an enduro person like you all. My longest was a marathon but it was a 3+ hour session.

Sakly
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Sakly » December 6th, 2023, 12:04 pm

penkethj wrote:
December 6th, 2023, 8:45 am
Just had a think about this, is there a reason everyone says to do a variable interval and put 100,000m, rather than putting 10 x 10,000m with 0 rest? Or 5 x 20,000m with 0 rest. Just thinking that would give you splits then wouldn’t it?
I think the reason is due to rankings. Intervals will not be ranked and obviously this is the only workaround that can be ranked.
Aquaman wrote:
December 6th, 2023, 10:49 am
Just curious - do you do all this in one setting? If not, does the PM5 or Ergdata save your progress and allow you to come back to continue or finish where you left off? I've not seen that functionality myself, but I'm not an enduro person like you all. My longest was a marathon but it was a 3+ hour session.
You can set the PM5 timeout to 12h, so you can have plenty of breaks if you need them. But the PM5 needs to stay alive and the time will pass and rests add to your overall time.
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 358m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:03.5
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

Mike Caviston
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Mike Caviston » December 6th, 2023, 2:24 pm

penkethj wrote:
December 6th, 2023, 8:45 am
Just had a think about this, is there a reason everyone says to do a variable interval and put 100,000m, rather than putting 10 x 10,000m with 0 rest? Or 5 x 20,000m with 0 rest. Just thinking that would give you splits then wouldn’t it?
I had to deal with this earlier this year after I completed a marathon and thought I might go on to row 62K on my 62nd birthday. I did 45K and 50K without any issues, but when I went to set up for 55K I discovered the 50K max. I knew about the variable intervals with zero rest trick but didn’t realize I could program a single interval greater than 50K. So I set up for 5K intervals with zero rest. I couldn’t get past 25K. I thought I might use the format to my advantage and adopt a goldfish mentality, and just pretend to myself I was only doing 5K and when the interval reset, again tell myself I was only doing a 5K, and magically the total distance would disappear in short chunks. But it just felt like an endless purgatory of 5Ks. I thought I just had to get used to the different format and tried again another day, but didn’t get even that far. It turns out I really need to see the entire distance count down. In the moment, I do ignore the one or two digits on the left (e.g., if the monitor says 39,800 meters I’ll ignore the 3 and imagine I’m rowing 9,800m and at some point just look at the 100s). But periodically I mentally zoom out to see the total and get a boost when I see a few more kms are gone, and really get some psychological momentum when I cross the half-way point. Anyway, if I get back to rowing more than 50K, I’ll use the single interval even though it is a shame not to capture splits.

Dangerscouse
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » December 6th, 2023, 4:47 pm

I might have posted this before, so apologies if I have, and Rob, I've slightly tweaked it to update it as the doc I sent you was from 2020.

Maybe not all of this, or any of it, will resonant with you as it's very subjective when you do ultra distances as to what works, what hurts, what hinders but I know all too well the loneliness of a long distance rower and knowing that there's others who are willing and able to have done it / to do it gave me some solace in the really dark moments.

100k preparation

I will preface this with the comment that, this is only my findings after I made lots of mistakes, as I searched for advice and help, and not too surprisingly, I didn’t find very much, but this is a rambling list of meandering thoughts.

Weight
It’s important to monitor your weight for two reasons. You may be under eating, which will be detrimental to your energy, and also not drinking enough water and/or carbs as you train. I found on a really long distance I could easily lose four or five kilos (I sweat a lot), which will need to be replaced as you progress. If you do a Google search there are ‘sweat calculators’ that if you input your starting and ending weight for a long sweaty session, it will tell you how much you should be drinking.
As a sub-section to this, it’s advisable to check if you’re a ‘salty sweater’ i.e. does your sweat taste salty? If it does, make sure that you add salt to your food and drinks where possible, or possibly have electrolyte drinks

Hydration
As above you need to make sure that you stay hydrated, and pick a regular time to have a drink. I generally use 15-20 minutes as it’s easy to manage, and regular enough. Also make sure that you’re fully rehydrating from your training sessions: it’s very easy to have an accumulating affect from not fully replenishing what you lose on a daily basis. A small deficit will not take too long to become a big deficit, and consequently then become a significant training impact e.g. HR will increase if dehydrated, which will then trigger the mind games! Also, it’s very important to not drink too much too, as that can be even more detrimental.
Make sure you try any sports drinks etc before the actual event as some of them can give you stomach ache. SIS drinks do that to me, but I have found that Tailwind powders are ideal for me, along with High5, or you can go old school and just use 50/50 diluted fruit juice, with a pinch of salt and sugar added (glucose speeds up the absorption of fructose). Also make sure to also have plain water. Caffeine, in my experience, doesn’t help very much and it’s not going to have the usual effect that you’re hoping, especially if you’re struggling.

Food
I find that I have very little appetite when doing the ultra-distances, but banana, salted cashew nuts, jelly beans, jelly babies etc are all good options to have close by.

Comfort
Make sure you trim your toenails! I’ve had long nails rubbing and eventually cutting a toe. Have a spare kit ready, you will probably be drenched at halfway, so a change of kit is very welcome when you have a break.
I used to use a cut up yoga mat in a pillow case for a seat cushion, but there are plenty of seat cushion options. I also make sure that I only use it AFTER my butt ache was unbearable, if I use it before I still get it and it doesn’t offer any support from then on. I’m very lucky as I can now manage hours without needing it.

Sports massage
I’d highly recommend having one or two sports massages beforehand, and afterwards as you will really appreciate it. In addition, it’s important to maintain stretching, and possibly foam rolling, to keep you as flexible as possible. Lots of antagonistic stretches are ideal e.g. reverse planks, glute bridges, hamstrings, ankles, anything to counteract the dominance of the plane of movement.

Hands
I always liquid chalk for my hands. It’s not going to make them totally dry, but it’s a big help. My hands are covered in calluses, but when you start ramping up the distance, due to the sweaty hands, you will probably start getting blisters, and even my calluses get churned up as they get so wet over a long period of time. I use cheap kinesiology tape, about three inches (10 centimetres) of it and try and get the end of the tape to on top / side of the finger (if it’s underneath, the glue can rub off on to the handle and also start to gather.
I also like to drape a hand towel over the monorail (above the handle stirrup) and occasionally put it over the handle (it takes a bit of practice, but you can do it over the handle after a few strokes) and this can be really useful for wiping your brow and keeping your hands dry.

Heart Rate Monitor
It’s not essential, but I find it useful to monitor what is going on, and you can slow down if it gets too high. Just remember an approximate 80% effort for a 100k can be similar to a 95% for a 10k, so don’t get carried away thinking you can increase the pace. Stick to your plan and maybe in the last 10-15k you can think about increasing it.

Sweatbands
I find a headband, and arm sweatbands, to be invaluable, despite making you look like a fool. Make sure you’ve got a few spares to change them when you have a break, it’s not pleasant trying to wipe your sweat away with a cold drenched sweatband. I also always use an 18 inch floor fan to try and keep me cooler. I prefer this on my back, not least as that’s where we naturally cool most efficiently too.

Mental coping strategies
A photo(s) of your loved ones is a great idea. Visualising completing it, and framing that feeling in your head, is essential. When you feel like quitting, and you will (probably on numerous occasions) remember why you started. Try and find some sort of three word mantra / film quote / music quote that really resonates with you and repeat it in your head. The three word mantra, or something else that’s short, is a proven psychological effect: it’s no coincidence that Nike use ‘Just Do It’ as their slogan. I’ve also written a more detailed post if you’re interested, which you’ll find if you search on the forum for ‘Coping Strategies’. If you read, I’d highly recommend The Chimp Paradox by Dr Steve Peters, as this establishes a simple, and very effective, method for managing the bad inner voice (inner chimp).

Miscellaneous
Make sure that the batteries are full. If the erg is a new model Model D with a PM5, batteries aren’t as much of an issue, as the flywheel also charges the monitor, but if it’s an older model, make sure you change.
Oil the chain with 3 in 1 oil and a rag. Wipe the monorail clean, and check the straps, if you want to use them, are not fraying. I personally don’t use them for long, slow rows. Have some tissues close by just in case you need to clear your nose. Charge anything the day before that needs charging e.g. mp3 player, Bluetooth headphones.
You can programme the monitor the old way Variable Intervals- Single Distance, or you can use the Ergzone app. I always use it, and the beauty of it is, you can, more or less, programme in any split that you want e.g. 10k; 12.5k; 20k; 50k. If you use the Variable Intervals option, it will be one single split that counts down from 100k, which I personally find a lot harder to mentally accept. Seeing, for instance, 8 x 12.5k is a lot more palatable, and helps to not overwhelm you.

Don't believe everything that you think. Your thoughts will get very persuasive that you NEED to stop etc, but in reality your mind will give up well before your body (probably) will do. Ride the wave and accept that it's a horrible place to be in, and always remember why you started.

I think that covers everything, and do not underestimate how hard it is. If you pace it correctly, and don’t over-train / under-recover in your build up, as I did, it is manageable, but you will have uncomfortable and/or very uncomfortable moments. Expect them, and almost look forward to them, as they are moments that tell you that you are making notable progress. Best of luck.
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

Dutch
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dutch » December 8th, 2023, 4:05 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:
December 6th, 2023, 4:47 pm

Maybe not all of this, or any of it, will resonant with you as it's very subjective when you do ultra distances as to what works, what hurts, what hinders but I know all too well the loneliness of a long distance rower and knowing that there's others who are willing and able to have done it / to do it gave me some solace in the really dark moments.

Don't believe everything that you think. Your thoughts will get very persuasive that you NEED to stop etc, but in reality your mind will give up well before your body (probably) will do. Ride the wave and accept that it's a horrible place to be in, and always remember why you started.

I think that covers everything, and do not underestimate how hard it is. If you pace it correctly, and don’t over-train / under-recover in your build up, as I did, it is manageable, but you will have uncomfortable and/or very uncomfortable moments. Expect them, and almost look forward to them, as they are moments that tell you that you are making notable progress. Best of luck.
Very interesting to read, nice break down on each part. I will use this for what I want to plan.
Age 54, 186cm 79.5kg

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