Talk to me about drag factor

[alex9026]

As per the title. I'm not entirely new to erg'ing, it served as cross training for me in my running days which are well and truly behind me. Even then, I knew one day I'd want a consistent dig at it... Anyway, fast forward a few years and an extra 15kg and the time has come. I picked up a second hand Concept model D with less than 50km on it, looks and felt as good as new.

Three feel in sessions so far, all steady state stuff, at the end of the row Ergdata gives me a drag factor reading, I didn't pay too much attention to it until I saw the term banded around the forum. Mine seems low after a little reading in to it. I set the damper to high end of 3, stroke rate 20-22, I'm content with my form but not naive enough to think I am dialed in. Take yesterday for example, 50 minutes, ave watts 181, 12000m with a drag factor of....100!?
I rowed a 30r20 at 200 watts 2:00 pace....106 drag factor.

So, where do I begin to bump this up a little? If relevant, I'm 6'2 and 92kg.

Tldr: my drag factor is rather low, where could I be going wrong?

[JaapvanE]

The drag factor is a direct result of the damper setting on the machine, nothing else. So if you want to increase it, just move the lever on the right side on the flywheel housing.

And 2:05 (approx 180W) on a 12K is not bad....

[Yankeerunner]

I rowed a 30r20 at 200 watts 2:00 pace....106 drag factor.

So, where do I begin to bump this up a little? If relevant, I'm 6'2 and 92kg.

Tldr: my drag factor is rather low, where could I be going wrong?

FWIW, years ago when I went into my local gym in Newburyport, MA there was Cyrus Beasley on the rowing machine, in town to visit his dad. Cyrus was the USA single sculler in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics and he was in training at the time for that competition. He is also 6'5" and 102kg. He was drenched in sweat, keeping the stroke rate at 16 and the damper all the way down to 1, which on a gym machine is less than 90 drag. His pace was 1:45/500m and he kept it up for nearly 2 hours. What he might put it at for 30r20 I don't know, but what I saw indicated to me that it's not as necessary as some might think to increase the drag to some high number.

Another reference point would be another giant, Pavel Shurmei, who would race a 2K at 160 drag. I have no idea what he trained at though.

[fancyoats]

Your machine might need a good cleaning to improve the range of drag factor it can do. You’ll have to disassemble the flywheel housing and clean out all the dusty crud inside - plenty of videos around on YouTube with step by step instructions.

[alex9026]

FWIW, years ago when I went into my local gym in Newburyport, MA there was Cyrus Beasley on the rowing machine, in town to visit his dad. Cyrus was the USA single sculler in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics and he was in training at the time for that competition. He is also 6'5" and 102kg. He was drenched in sweat, keeping the stroke rate at 16 and the damper all the way down to 1, which on a gym machine is less than 90 drag. His pace was 1:45/500m and he kept it up for nearly 2 hours.

This is a fantastic story.

Your machine might need a good cleaning to improve the range of drag factor it can do. You’ll have to disassemble the flywheel housing and clean out all the dusty crud inside - plenty of videos around on YouTube with step by step instructions.

Noted, thanks.

Essentially, I won't overthink it for now and will experiment with damper setting as and when. And give it a clean.

And 2:05 (approx 180W) on a 12K is not bad....

Appreciate it

[c2jonw]

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... etting-101

here's a good read for you....

[Dangerscouse]

Drag factor!! This is a bone of contention for so many people, but imo it's just a means to an end in finding the most efficient version of you.

It's very common for newbies to try and find the 'perfect' drag factor, as too many people seem to convince themselves I must be struggling as I'm not using the correct drag factor (I'm not saying this is applicable to you btw)

I know of at least two very good ergers who use almost max drag factor (circa 200), but it's probably unlikely you'll be most efficient at that. As per Yankeerunner's great story, under 100 isn't to be discounted as well.

I've rowed at max drag (at the gym) for years, and I've also worked down to 110. I've settled on circa 125ish, as this just feels about right, but it's important to experiment and use it for about five sessions before you decide it's too heavy or too light, as you do adapt to it. I think it's more relevant as to how much explosiveness you've got as low drag really relies on that.

[Carl Watts]

Pretty much 110 to 130 suits most people.

Depends on your level of training and physical ability, age etc but most people are not an "Elite Rower" so I wouldn't use their settings.

With a decent bit of training you will eventually find you will slip into the 110 to 130 band for anything other than short sprints.

Newbies typically start out too high as they don't feel any resistance but as your leg speed and power increase the drag can go down.

[JaapvanE]

but it's important to experiment and use it for about five sessions before you decide it's too heavy or too light, as you do adapt to it. I think it's more relevant as to how much explosiveness you've got as low drag really relies on that.

I completely agree with this statement. In its essence, dragfactor is about personal timing and a preferred feel of the handle.

The flywheel is a bit like pushing a kid on a swing: timing is everything. When you are too early in your push (or too late in rowing): you slam into the kid. When you are too late in your push (too early in rowing), the kids is already gone again and you push into air without connecting. Drag determines the timing of the flywheel.

When looking at dragfactor and rhythm, a too fast recovery can lead to encountering a too fast flywheel, and thus the feeling of a too light flywheel. There is a lot to say for soft catches (i.e. timing the catch perfectly to catch the flywheel at the perfect matching speed), but it could also slip into a missed catch. What I noticed when I worked my way back up from DF69 to DF140, is that when the drag is too low, I start missing catches as my recovery was too fast for the flywheel speed I needed for a good drive. So slowing down in the recovery and have a decent catch is also a valid approach for these low drag situations. But at some point I felt the stroke rhythm was beyond ridiculous for me.

Looking at the physical aspects of a high drag (say DF170+) setups is that it tends to put quite a lot of stress on joints, and when technique isn't perfect, it puts stress on bad places. In essence, you'll encounter a slow flywheel at every stroke, with a need to accelerate a lot to make a decent stroke. Some people can do this, others can't.

[gvcormac]

At a lower drag factor, if you are able pull that fast with the same force, you will have more time for recovery, unless you increase your stroke rate.

But you don't need to increase your stroke rate. Just be more leisurely, and you will waste less energy on recovery.

In the end, the differences are not large. So choose what's comfortable.

I can row from 18 to 35 spm and from DF 100 to DF 130 with essentially the same power vs. effort. Above DF 130 I have trouble with the higher stroke rates, and maybe a bit more muscle fatigue.

[alex9026]

Some interesting points to take on board. I like the kid on a swing analogy, makes sense.... I haven't adjusted the damper setting since my first stroke 40km ago. I'm in a "feels about right" phase, but also mindful if I can fine tune things a little, I'm open to it. I'll maybe adjust after Friday's longer steady state, be 5 sessions then.

I'll give the link a read tonight.

[GlennUk]

The values for DF typically quoted for gender/weight are predicated on rowing in a boat.

If you're never going to get in a boat find a value that suits you (on a daily basis if it suits) and do what you want.

JMHO

Glenn

[btlifter]

but it's important to experiment and use it for about five sessions before you decide it's too heavy or too light, as you do adapt to it. I think it's more relevant as to how much explosiveness you've got as low drag really relies on that.

I completely agree with this statement. In its essence, dragfactor is about personal timing and a preferred feel of the handle.

The flywheel is a bit like pushing a kid on a swing: timing is everything. When you are too early in your push (or too late in rowing): you slam into the kid. When you are too late in your push (too early in rowing), the kids is already gone again and you push into air without connecting. Drag determines the timing of the flywheel.

When looking at dragfactor and rhythm, a too fast recovery can lead to encountering a too fast flywheel, and thus the feeling of a too light flywheel. There is a lot to say for soft catches (i.e. timing the catch perfectly to catch the flywheel at the perfect matching speed), but it could also slip into a missed catch. What I noticed when I worked my way back up from DF69 to DF140, is that when the drag is too low, I start missing catches as my recovery was too fast for the flywheel speed I needed for a good drive. So slowing down in the recovery and have a decent catch is also a valid approach for these low drag situations. But at some point I felt the stroke rhythm was beyond ridiculous for me.

Looking at the physical aspects of a high drag (say DF170+) setups is that it tends to put quite a lot of stress on joints, and when technique isn't perfect, it puts stress on bad places. In essence, you'll encounter a slow flywheel at every stroke, with a need to accelerate a lot to make a decent stroke. Some people can do this, others can't.

To your point, "some people can do this, others can't". The slower acceleration actually leaves a very high DF feeling much gentler on my joints (at least at approx r22 and up).

[JaapvanE]

To your point, "some people can do this, others can't". The slower acceleration actually leaves a very high DF feeling much gentler on my joints (at least at approx r22 and up).

That is a fair point. At any given DF the feel of the flywheel can still change by changing SPM, ratio and the (avoidance of the) agressiveness of the catch. Good point.

A point I saw illustrated last saturday when I saw an old lady row on DF220 (brand new machine, setting 10) with bad technique. She passed my treshold of "She is going to injur herself doing this, so I need to intervene", so I said something. Her reply was she needed that damper to feel any resistance. Being dead-slow on the drive with no hip swing (leaning back all the time) and rushing the recovery did provide her with an extremely soft catch.

I totally agree that a soft catch is possible on high DF. I even think it is a requirement to have one, but it is difficult to master.