Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[MPx]

As Dougie says, changing isn't allowed anyway and you are definitely overthinking. You don't now have time to check out what the effect of any changes might be. You should go for whatever DF you've done all of your training at. Shifting lower will potentially ease muscle use at the expense of extra stress on your aerobic system. May be a useful thing to try in the future, but not as an experiment during the event itself. Very best of luck...

[Dangerscouse]

I'm targeting a 7:06 finish (2:07.9 avg split) but given this is the first one and I've never erged beyond 50km, I'm open to surprises.

So here's my question: has anybody changed their drag factor halfway through their 100km piece? I'm only considering it because I really want to keep my splits around 2:07 for the first half. At my preferred DF of 130 and stroke rate 21, I default to a 2:00-2:02 split and my heart rate gets over 140.

I suspect I'm overthinking this. Would love to hear this group's thoughts.

Yeah, you're overthinking it. It's going to be horrific whatever you do, and you'll probably convince yourself that drag factor is an issue, but in reality trying to row 100k is the only issue, and df won't make it easier...unless you've cranked it up to 160+

Imo, you need to find a middle ground of a slightly weaker stroke, and a slightly lower stroke rate, and maybe a compromise drag of circa 125ish? Having the mental ability to control your instincts is important as you want it to be automatic but not too automatic that ostensibly small issues become bigger issues over the course of the 100k.

I can't say what it will be like for you, but IME, when you get over 50k it's a totally different story, probably very much like your Ironman races, and it's a mental and physical battle.

If you've prepared properly, which I never did, you'll be fine, albeit other's interpretations of 'fine' will vary

Best of luck.

[cherwenka]

It's explicitly disallowed by the C2 rules
Don't base all of your training on HR unless you've done a step test to failure or a lab where they measure your HR and bands.

So happy I asked. I'll set it at 125 and be done with it.

Totally agree with the HR point. My triathlon training was based on a VO2 max test, but that was a while ago. I'm going to go in soon to get a new one done and work my training off of that. For now, I'm going to focus more on perceived exertion and keep the actual numbers in a rough range.

[cherwenka]

As Dougie says, changing isn't allowed anyway and you are definitely overthinking. You don't now have time to check out what the effect of any changes might be. You should go for whatever DF you've done all of your training at. Shifting lower will potentially ease muscle use at the expense of extra stress on your aerobic system. May be a useful thing to try in the future, but not as an experiment during the event itself. Very best of luck...

Thank you. Yeah, I'll drop it just a bit. I'll do this first one at 125. I'm still considering 120 since I assume my strength will go before my cardio but I also know a 5-point difference in DF isn't going to change my results much. Goal here is to finish and learn.

[cherwenka]

Yeah, you're overthinking it. It's going to be horrific whatever you do
If you've prepared properly, which I never did, you'll be fine, albeit other's interpretations of 'fine' will vary

Setting it at 125. Really appreciate all the input here.
I'm sort of prepared. Wish I'd done a few longer ones leading up to this but ah well. It'll be interesting at the very least.

[penkethj]

Setting it at 125. Really appreciate all the input here.
I'm sort of prepared. Wish I'd done a few longer ones leading up to this but ah well. It'll be interesting at the very least.

Good luck for tomorrow!!

[cherwenka]

Hey all, appreciate the words of support prior to my first 100km attempt today.

In short, I inadvertently stopped at 70km when the monitor timed out during a break. I wasn't gutted; see below for my detailed notes. And there was no way I was starting over (haha) or adding another 30km as a 2nd workout.

Still super proud to have pulled 70km, and glad to get that under my belt as a nice test run for another shot at 100km.

Here are a few things I learned, plus my nutrition plan (attached.) Common knowledge for many of you in this thread but might be helpful for a few.

1. The C2 ErgData app doesn't allow for a 100km as a "single distance" option; it's max 50km. I found this out at 4:58am when I was all set to begin, then scrambled to search the internet for some answers. There is one: on the Main Menu, choose Select Workout > New Workout > Intervals: Variable. Set a single distance interval of 100,000 meters, with a rest interval of 0:00. Unfortunately, this means there are no splits so we can't see our progress on a screen. But I assume we can download the file as a CSV afterwards.

2. The monitor shuts down! In 30 years of erging I've never taken a long enough unscheduled break to realize that during a workout. Makes sense of course, but it bit me today during a bathroom break. The fix is to hit buttons (Display or Change Display, Units or Change Units) to keep the screen awake. According to C2, you have "a couple of minutes of inactivity" before it shuts down. My wife was out when I took my break, and I wrongly assumed I had enough time.

Here's another potential fix for solo ergers who need a bathroom break, thanks to the Facebook Indoor Rowing Community: "utilities -> battery -> press unit 3 times, then display 3 times. 12 hour time out. Marked by a little 12h in the top left. Turns off the same way. Runs the batteries down if you forget to turn it off."

3. When the monitor shuts off, the ErgData app does too--and it wipes out that workout on the app. Thankfully it still exists on the C2 monitor.

4. I took in way too much sodium. See attached for my workout plan. I worked off my Ironman nutrition plan but instead of sweating outside on a hot day biking and running, I was erging in a cold garage. I consumed 14% more sodium than I planned, but given the cold weather it was probably closer to double what I needed. This likely impacted my stomach and caused the fateful bathroom break.

5. Nutrition on an erg is different from a bike. I think the extra core work and pivoting we do on the erg makes our stomachs more sensitive. I also wasn't as used to the gels and Stinger waffles as I was when I did my Ironmans, so that added to the stomach problems.

6. Straight water is important. I put 6 GU tabs in my 3L platypus bladder, but my stomach was craving just plain water. Everything was too sweet: the gels, the Stinger waffles, the tabs--and it really hit me.

7. A slightly lower drag factor is great! I was happy to set mine at 125 vs my standard 130. Even at the end when I felt like I had dead legs, I was still holding splits around 2:08-2:10 with a comfortable stroke rate of 20.5.

8. Scheduled breaks beat ad hoc ones. This was what killed me, on top of the stomach issues. Every minute of rest increases the average split by a punishing +0.3s. So sure, I was pulling a 2:08 average--but taking a 5-minute break meant I came back to a 2:09.5 average. That was psychologically damaging since it knocked me off pace. Made me not care so much about the final time--I moved into "just get 'er done" mode--but I allowed myself to stop after 3k, another 5k, etc. No set rest times so that added up super quickly, and cranked my average to 2:18.5.

9. Respect the back half. I wasn't actually physically tired from 55-70km, but my mind was a mess. Once I took a break, I was basically done. On the next attempt I'll go out much slower--likely a 2:10 split to keep it all super light and easy. I think that'll make a big difference in the back half and prevent me from thinking I need a rest. It was weird though... I thought my legs were dead but I'd look at the monitor and still be pulling around 2:08-ish.

Anyway, hope that's helpful for some. I appreciate this community and thread. Massive respect for all of you who have completed this 100km challenge (or more!). Newfound respect added on top of an already high base of admiration. --Andrew

[Dangerscouse]

I'm sorry to hear about your issues, as I was really hoping to read your success story, and if you hadn't already done ironmans I'd have commented on some of these issues.

I always use Ergzone app, and you can programme in the splits that you want for a 100k. Admittedly, I only got to 84k when I last tried (another example of hubris and/or bad planning on my behalf) , but it recorded it all properly up until then (12.5k splits)

I would always recommend plain water and maybe a protein shake. You need the normality of water both physically and mentally. Ime, it wears you down just having sweet drinks.

I don't add much sodium, as I mainly rely on the energy gels / powders, or I just add a large pinch of salt (and sugar) to my 50/50 diluted fruit juice.

The second 50k is a total minefield of possibilities and there's no telling how you're going to cope. I've rowed over 50k, I think, eight times and they've all been different, except the sheer mental battle that rages.

It's really good to see you're thinking if doing it again, especially now you've got some knowledge of what to expect.

[Citroen]

The PM5 allows you to specify 100,000m. Set it up as 10 intervals of 10,000m with 0:00 rest time (or any other selection that adds up like 90,000 + 10,000). It won't shut down during a workout for 9 minutes or shut down ever if the PM5 is powered from the wall or a laptop (with a USB-A to USB-B printer cable).

https://www.concept2.com/skierg/motivat ... quirements

[Yankeerunner]

Anyway, hope that's helpful for some. I appreciate this community and thread. Massive respect for all of you who have completed this 100km challenge (or more!). Newfound respect added on top of an already high base of admiration. --Andrew

Thanks for the detailed report. Sorry to hear that you weren't able to complete it, but your observations are sure to help anyone else giving it a try. Not sure that I'll ever be up to trying it myself, but if I do, I'll be referring back to this.

[cherwenka]

I'm sorry to hear about your issues, as I was really hoping to read your success story, and if you hadn't already done ironmans I'd have commented on some of these issues.

I always use Ergzone app, and you can programme in the splits that you want for a 100k. Admittedly, I only got to 84k when I last tried (another example of hubris and/or bad planning on my behalf) , but it recorded it all properly up until then (12.5k splits)

I would always recommend plain water and maybe a protein shake. You need the normality of water both physically and mentally. Ime, it wears you down just having sweet drinks.

I don't add much sodium, as I mainly rely on the energy gels / powders, or I just add a large pinch of salt (and sugar) to my 50/50 diluted fruit juice.

The second 50k is a total minefield of possibilities and there's no telling how you're going to cope. I've rowed over 50k, I think, eight times and they've all been different, except the sheer mental battle that rages.

It's really good to see you're thinking if doing it again, especially now you've got some knowledge of what to expect.

Thanks a ton, Stu.

It's funny; nutrition was the one area I didn't doubt, and it was the main one that caused me to stop.

My biggest takeways were: 1) nutrition on the erg in a cold garage must vary from what I did on a bike in the hot sun; and 2) the erg stroke engages my core in a way that perhaps doesn't allow the same gels or waffles to settle as they did on the bike.

Agree with plain water, for sure. I'll get my sodium intake through Saltstick pills instead. Reclaiming my sodium loss is super important since I sweat a ton and my sweat over-indexes in salt content. That said, I miscalculated how much sweat I would lose. Over my 5+ hour row, I actually dropped less than a pound of body weight (from 229.6 to 228.8.) That tells me I probably ate and drank too much.

For all, here was the admittedly flawed Ironman nutrition plan I followed. I'm unsure how I'll vary it for the next attempt; likely just the source of carbs and sodium, and will target the lower quantity ranges.

• Hourly targets: Carbs 75-100g; Sodium 600-1200mg; water 600-1200ml.

• Consumption every 30 mins: 1 GU gel, 1 Stinger waffle, 500mls of water (my 3L Platypus bag contained 6 GU hydration tabs)

• 30-min breakdown: Carbs 43g (22g/GU gel, 21g/waffle); Sodium 550 mg (125mg/gel, 150mg/waffle, 274mg per 550ml of water)

• Optional top-ups: Stinger chews (20g carbs, 33mg sodium per 4); standard gummies (15g carbs, 18mg sodium per 4); Saltstick tabs (215mg/tab)

So overall, I hit my carb and water intake goals but was 14% over in sodium. In reality though, I was likely way over in all of it due to cold weather.

I'm also going to check out ErgZone, and check this forum for ErgZone vs ErgData opinions. My training partner uses RowHero but it doesn't auto-upload to C2 so it's out for me. Curious to see why you and others aren't going with C2's own app.

Will now continue my 2k training for the World Indoors in Feb, and revisit the 100km challenge in April before the season ends. Eight weeks of longer distance training with some proper nutrition testing along the way should get me across the finish line.

-Andrew

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks a ton, Stu.

It's funny; nutrition was the one area I didn't doubt, and it was the main one that caused me to stop.

My biggest takeways were: 1) nutrition on the erg in a cold garage must vary from what I did on a bike in the hot sun; and 2) the erg stroke engages my core in a way that perhaps doesn't allow the same gels or waffles to settle as they did on the bike.

Agree with plain water, for sure. I'll get my sodium intake through Saltstick pills instead. Reclaiming my sodium loss is super important since I sweat a ton and my sweat over-indexes in salt content. That said, I miscalculated how much sweat I would lose. Over my 5+ hour row, I actually dropped less than a pound of body weight (from 229.6 to 228.8.) That tells me I probably ate and drank too much.

For all, here was the admittedly flawed Ironman nutrition plan I followed. I'm unsure how I'll vary it for the next attempt; likely just the source of carbs and sodium, and will target the lower quantity ranges.

• Hourly targets: Carbs 75-100g; Sodium 600-1200mg; water 600-1200ml.

• Consumption every 30 mins: 1 GU gel, 1 Stinger waffle, 500mls of water (my 3L Platypus bag contained 6 GU hydration tabs)

• 30-min breakdown: Carbs 43g (22g/GU gel, 21g/waffle); Sodium 550 mg (125mg/gel, 150mg/waffle, 274mg per 550ml of water)

• Optional top-ups: Stinger chews (20g carbs, 33mg sodium per 4); standard gummies (15g carbs, 18mg sodium per 4); Saltstick tabs (215mg/tab)

So overall, I hit my carb and water intake goals but was 14% over in sodium. In reality though, I was likely way over in all of it due to cold weather.

I'm also going to check out ErgZone, and check this forum for ErgZone vs ErgData opinions. My training partner uses RowHero but it doesn't auto-upload to C2 so it's out for me. Curious to see why you and others aren't going with C2's own app.

Will now continue my 2k training for the World Indoors in Feb, and revisit the 100km challenge in April before the season ends. Eight weeks of longer distance training with some proper nutrition testing along the way should get me across the finish line.

-Andrew

It's ironic that one of your greatest strengths can become one of your greatest weaknesses when trying a very significant challenge in a different sporting discipline. Question everything is always great advice, but hindsight is the greatest teacher. It's something I see from really good runners who start erging due to injury, and struggle with becoming a beginner again. I had something similar when I started yoga in April, and went back to hot dynamic Pilates after having ten months off, but had done it once a week for ten years.

I sweat far too much & too easily, and it's also notably sweaty, but I don't add much salt to drinks. Tailwind powders were ideal for the really long rows. It's always subjective, but I'd wonder if you don't need to worry too much about sodium. Do you get cramps? Do you add much salt to your food generally?

I suspect that the issue with erging compared to cycling is the compression of the stomach, and the slightly different breathing technique you'll need to use.

I've used ErgZone for about four years now, as it's just far more user friendly imo. Admittedly I've not used the new version of Ergdata, but the older version was no comparison. It also uploads and verifies your sessions, and it's multitude of different options to display (if you're so inclined) are superb.

I've never been very scientific in my nutrition, which may have been a hindrance, but it never seemed to have held me back. I find it interesting seeing how you mapped it all out for an hourly basis. I just drank, roughly every 5k, or maybe a bit more if I felt like I needed it, but don't follow my lead, that's just what works for me. I also don't stop to drink for anything under 20 miles, which is also contrary to the general advice.

[cherwenka]

I also don't stop to drink for anything under 20 miles, which is also contrary to the general advice.

Same. An old rowing coach told me we have enough in our systems to go for 2 hours without replenishing anything. That holds true for me. I do my 90 min sessions and the odd 120 straight through.

[Sakly]

I also don't stop to drink for anything under 20 miles, which is also contrary to the general advice.

Same. An old rowing coach told me we have enough in our systems to go for 2 hours without replenishing anything. That holds true for me. I do my 90 min sessions and the odd 120 straight through.

I did my marathon without eating and drinking at all. It wasn't too fast, but also not too slow done at 2:02.6 average.
Needed to fill up a good bit afterwards, but no problems at all during the work.

[aussie nick]

congratulations on getting to 70k Cherwenka - that's a huge achievement