Just ordered a RowERG

[mict450]

The really good rowers feel the connection with the water/flywheel and then accelerate with the legs in a way the boat can follow. Being able to transfer your power effectively is key here. Connecting with the water/flywheel in a way to transfer energy efficiently is really a thing. Putting more power in than the boat/flywheel can absorb in that time is just wasting energy.

As I understand it, you want to a soft but quick connection, and THEN accelerate in a controlled manner to optimally apply force.

Eloquently stated!

[mict450]

I wonder if 'exploding at the catch' might be the reason I sometimes clip my knees (or a knee) with the handle on the drive. Just a thought.

Might you be opening your hips prematurely?

[hikeplusrow]

I wonder if 'exploding at the catch' might be the reason I sometimes clip my knees (or a knee) with the handle on the drive. Just a thought.

Might you be opening your hips prematurely?

Completely agree, but that in itself could be a function of exploding at the catch.

[JaapvanE]

I wonder if 'exploding at the catch' might be the reason I sometimes clip my knees (or a knee) with the handle on the drive. Just a thought.

Could very well be. Breaking the arms too early in the stroke puts a lot of unnecessary force on your biceps (at least wearing them down, in the worst case hurting them) early in the drive, while the legs should still do the work. As a rule of thumb, either the legs are bent or the arms, but never at the same time.

[hikeplusrow]

I wonder if 'exploding at the catch' might be the reason I sometimes clip my knees (or a knee) with the handle on the drive. Just a thought.

Could very well be. Breaking the arms too early in the stroke puts a lot of unnecessary force on your biceps (at least wearing them down, in the worst case hurting them) early in the drive, while the legs should still do the work. As a rule of thumb, either the legs are bent or the arms, but never at the same time.

Yes, I seem to have nailed down straight arms going into the catch, but now need to work on keeping them straight for the first part of the drive. I feel that my biceps are working much less hard now, which is good, but noticed that one of them was suffering towards the end of the HM I did yesterday. Interestingly, I've noticed that I clip my knees less during harder pieces.

[JaapvanE]

Yes, I seem to have nailed down straight arms going into the catch, but now need to work on keeping them straight for the first part of the drive. I feel that my biceps are working much less hard now, which is good, but noticed that one of them was suffering towards the end of the HM I did yesterday. Interestingly, I've noticed that I clip my knees less during harder pieces.

That is why easier pieces exist: to train and automate the movement. To engrave it into your system, so that on harder pieces you do it well automatically.

A couple of years ago I also broke my arms too soon, although less extreme. People like Cam Buchan (a Scotsman close to the Olympic team of GB) still tends to break his arms early. When you look at his video's (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65kAGFUDtBE , which was part of his Olympic trial) and watch closely, you'll see it. It is an extremely tough habit to break as it makes sense on one level: you want to catch a moving flywheel, and the easiest way to do it is with the fastest (and weakest) muscle in the chain: the biceps. Disadvantage is that once the flywheel is caught, it is extremely tough to keep your arm bent in that position throughout the brute force power of the drive.

Please note, even on a slow row (say 2:25/500m), my force curve peaks around 500 Newton. When I speed up, it will peak around 700 to 800 Newton. That is a large portion of my body weight hanging on that handle. Easy work for my legs who can push that easily. But doing 2000 pull-ups on my biceps, can't do that....

[Dangerscouse]

I wonder if 'exploding at the catch' might be the reason I sometimes clip my knees (or a knee) with the handle on the drive. Just a thought.

My first instinct was that you might be very slightly shooting the slide, so you're then compensating with a more exaggerated pull, whilst the knees are still too bent. This would also lower the line of trajectory of the chain as you're leaning forward a bit too much.

Just a thought, but it could well be starting the hip hinge too early.

[hikeplusrow]

Yes, I seem to have nailed down straight arms going into the catch, but now need to work on keeping them straight for the first part of the drive. I feel that my biceps are working much less hard now, which is good, but noticed that one of them was suffering towards the end of the HM I did yesterday. Interestingly, I've noticed that I clip my knees less during harder pieces.

That is why easier pieces exist: to train and automate the movement. To engrave it into your system, so that on harder pieces you do it well automatically.

A couple of years ago I also broke my arms too soon, although less extreme. People like Cam Buchan (a Scotsman close to the Olympic team of GB) still tends to break his arms early. When you look at his video's (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65kAGFUDtBE , which was part of his Olympic trial) and watch closely, you'll see it. It is an extremely tough habit to break as it makes sense on one level: you want to catch a moving flywheel, and the easiest way to do it is with the fastest (and weakest) muscle in the chain: the biceps. Disadvantage is that once the flywheel is caught, it is extremely tough to keep your arm bent in that position throughout the brute force power of the drive.

Please note, even on a slow row (say 2:25/500m), my force curve peaks around 500 Newton. When I speed up, it will peak around 700 to 800 Newton. That is a large portion of my body weight hanging on that handle. Easy work for my legs who can push that easily. But doing 2000 pull-ups on my biceps, can't do that....

Glad you mentioned Cam Buchan - I'm a huge fan, and his relentlessly positive videos have helped me through many a dark day following the passing of my mum in April (and I've communicated that to him). His issue with bent arms is interesting. Here is a guy who does massive volume - sometimes 200-250k a week, but even he can't totally solve the problem. Will I be able to solve the same issue off the back of 70-80k?

[JaapvanE]

Glad you mentioned Cam Buchan - I'm a huge fan, and his relentlessly positive videos have helped me through many a dark day following the passing of my mum in April (and I've communicated that to him).

Sorry you lost your mum. My condolences.

I absolutely love Cam. It is a real shame he missed the Olympic boat, but I hope he will keep involved in rowing as his energy and positivity are inspiring indeed. Personally, I hope Team GB recognize the great communicator and example he is to the many many rowers out there which aren't Olympic material but love the sport for what it is. He perhaps is a much better and more appealing communicator than those many gold medalists who are much more focused on the technicalities of their sport but lack the accessible approach to the many recreational rowers that are out there. On InsideIndoor.com (a part of British Rowing, but also non-UK people are welcome) he is also present, so I have hope of not losing him.

His issue with bent arms is interesting. Here is a guy who does massive volume - sometimes 200-250k a week, but even he can't totally solve the problem. Will I be able to solve the same issue off the back of 70-80k?

I guess it comes down to priorities. He is definitively aware of his arms breaking early (as many, many people told him in many many comments), but given his brutal training schedule and priorities, he probably lacks the time to do anything significant about it. People like Cam live in an extremely competitive world where small details can make the difference between making an important cut or not, and the next trial or race is always only months away. And nobody is perfect, but the question is who made the smartest compromises. As a former athlete myself (not a rower), I know every athlete has a huge list of needed improvements, which all are doable by their own, but tend to be difficult when combined on a schedule. Coaches and trainers will help decide what to improve first to achieve maximum gain before critical dates (like the Olympic trials). And as the man said, he made huge gains in the last months.

And don't underestimate the risk of falling apart completely for a highly trained athlete: when you start changing essential things in the beginning of a movement, the stresses on the body and the feel of it changes. His body is used to be positioned in a certain way during the stroke, so suddenly having relaxed arms and shoulders during a powerful drive for 3 hours might put stress on his back that it is not used to, potentially injuring him. And the feel of the stroke changes, which is one of Cam's most essential feedback mechanisms. Amateurs like you and I might not even notice it, but a highly skilled pro like Cam thrives on that feel to feel how the boat, oar and water behave during the stroke, which is essential for his performance. Having to learn that again is difficult and time consuming. So as long as his biceps can survive a 2K at race pace, it might not be a priority.

But we mere amateurs have plenty of opportunity to improve, as our time to our Olympic trials is almost infinite . With focus on the stroke order (legs, back, arm, arm-back, legs) and some humility of doing extremely basic drills, you can get pretty far. It took me a couple of weeks of training. I started with simple drills, then I tried it in a normal easy steady state 10K training. At first, I did 1K right, 9K wrong. With focus, it became 2K, etc.. Now, it is almost automatic and I can work on a better hip-swing. And I still notice that at some times my arms break too early, but when I feel it I am able to correct it.

[hikeplusrow]

Glad you mentioned Cam Buchan - I'm a huge fan, and his relentlessly positive videos have helped me through many a dark day following the passing of my mum in April (and I've communicated that to him).

Sorry you lost your mum. My condolences.

I absolutely love Cam. It is a real shame he missed the Olympic boat, but I hope he will keep involved in rowing as his energy and positivity are inspiring indeed. Personally, I hope Team GB recognize the great communicator and example he is to the many many rowers out there which aren't Olympic material but love the sport for what it is. He perhaps is a much better and more appealing communicator than those many gold medalists who are much more focused on the technicalities of their sport but lack the accessible approach to the many recreational rowers that are out there. On InsideIndoor.com (a part of British Rowing, but also non-UK people are welcome) he is also present, so I have hope of not losing him.

His issue with bent arms is interesting. Here is a guy who does massive volume - sometimes 200-250k a week, but even he can't totally solve the problem. Will I be able to solve the same issue off the back of 70-80k?

I guess it comes down to priorities. He is definitively aware of his arms breaking early (as many, many people told him in many many comments), but given his brutal training schedule and priorities, he probably lacks the time to do anything significant about it. People like Cam live in an extremely competitive world where small details can make the difference between making an important cut or not, and the next trial or race is always only months away. And nobody is perfect, but the question is who made the smartest compromises. As a former athlete myself (not a rower), I know every athlete has a huge list of needed improvements, which all are doable by their own, but tend to be difficult when combined on a schedule. Coaches and trainers will help decide what to improve first to achieve maximum gain before critical dates (like the Olympic trials). And as the man said, he made huge gains in the last months.

And don't underestimate the risk of falling apart completely for a highly trained athlete: when you start changing essential things in the beginning of a movement, the stresses on the body and the feel of it changes. His body is used to be positioned in a certain way during the stroke, so suddenly having relaxed arms and shoulders during a powerful drive for 3 hours might put stress on his back that it is not used to, potentially injuring him. And the feel of the stroke changes, which is one of Cam's most essential feedback mechanisms. Amateurs like you and I might not even notice it, but a highly skilled pro like Cam thrives on that feel to feel how the boat, oar and water behave during the stroke, which is essential for his performance. Having to learn that again is difficult and time consuming. So as long as his biceps can survive a 2K at race pace, it might not be a priority.

But we mere amateurs have plenty of opportunity to improve, as our time to our Olympic trials is almost infinite . With focus on the stroke order (legs, back, arm, arm-back, legs) and some humility of doing extremely basic drills, you can get pretty far. It took me a couple of weeks of training. I started with simple drills, then I tried it in a normal easy steady state 10K training. At first, I did 1K right, 9K wrong. With focus, it became 2K, etc.. Now, it is almost automatic and I can work on a better hip-swing. And I still notice that at some times my arms break too early, but when I feel it I am able to correct it.

+6,458. What a wonderful response.

[hikeplusrow]

I wonder if 'exploding at the catch' might be the reason I sometimes clip my knees (or a knee) with the handle on the drive. Just a thought.

My first instinct was that you might be very slightly shooting the slide, so you're then compensating with a more exaggerated pull, whilst the knees are still too bent. This would also lower the line of trajectory of the chain as you're leaning forward a bit too much.

Just a thought, but it could well be starting the hip hinge too early.

I've never viewed myself as a shooting the slide kind of guy, but I'll monitor that now. The chain trajectory is for sure too low, and I find myself consciously, and frustratingly, attempting to raise it during workouts. I'm not a tall person - under 5' 10"' - I don't know if that plays a part?

[Dangerscouse]

Glad you mentioned Cam Buchan - I'm a huge fan, and his relentlessly positive videos have helped me through many a dark day following the passing of my mum in April (and I've communicated that to him). His issue with bent arms is interesting. Here is a guy who does massive volume - sometimes 200-250k a week, but even he can't totally solve the problem. Will I be able to solve the same issue off the back of 70-80k?

I'm sorry to hear about your Mum, that must have been very tough.

We all have idiosyncrasies that make us who we are in a general sense, and this is true of erging too. IIRC, Kirani James (Olympic 200m & 400m champion) had a very unusual style of running that Michael Johnson said would be detrimental, but he managed to win an Olympic gold medal.

Don't worry about breaking your arms too early, but keep trying to correct it, and slowly it might change, or it might not. It's all good.

I might be off the mark with shooting the slide, so don't assume I'm correct. It was just a thought.

[mict450]

hikeplusrow, so, so sorry to hear about the passing of your mother....

[hikeplusrow]

hikeplusrow, so, so sorry to hear about the passing of your mother....

Thank you, that's very kind.

[p_b82]

I wonder if 'exploding at the catch' might be the reason I sometimes clip my knees (or a knee) with the handle on the drive. Just a thought.

Sorry for your loss, I know how tough it is to loose a parent.

RE the clipping knee part - If you break down the mechanics of the stroke you should be able to identify the causality that allows the condition to occur.

Is it:
hands too low
Bent arms
early hip hinge.
Shooting slide etc.

I'd be more inclined to say it's likely combination of the top 3 - not each one individually.

It might be one of those cases where recording yourself and seeing when you do it and then analysing each component is the quickest way to help you solve it, and it might just be a minor timing tweak to each.