Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[jcross485]

Why not just crank out a 2km?

Very good question.

1). I have only done one or two sessions in the last 6 months or so where I hit a rate of 23 or higher or paces below 1:55 / 500. Almost everything I have done has been geared more towards distance. I would presume that I am very underprepared for a 2k so any result that I based the program from would essentially sell full marathon or 50k potential / performance short. I just knocked out a 1:24:26 HM (2:00.0 / 500) a few weeks back which puts me somewhere around the 7:00 mark for 2k, give or take, but I don't know if I am prepared at this point to hold 1:45 / 500 for a 2k.

2). I know its going to hurt ha!

[contdrift86]

Why not just crank out a 2km?

Very good question.

1). I have only done one or two sessions in the last 6 months or so where I hit a rate of 23 or higher or paces below 1:55 / 500. Almost everything I have done has been geared more towards distance. I would presume that I am very underprepared for a 2k so any result that I based the program from would essentially sell full marathon or 50k potential / performance short. I just knocked out a 1:24:26 HM (2:00.0 / 500) a few weeks back which puts me somewhere around the 7:00 mark for 2k, give or take, but I don't know if I am prepared at this point to hold 1:45 / 500 for a 2k.

2). I know its going to hurt ha!

1. I do the majority of my training at 18-20SPM as well, do about 25 minutes a week at R25+ out of 6 hours so I know that feeling. However without much specific training around the 2km I just knocked out a PB of 6:59.5. Didn't expect anything and went out way too hot but was able to hold onto it and get a decent time, which has also changed my SS efforts as I have shifted their intensity up a few watts.

2. True, but only for about 12 minutes. 7 to do the test and 5 to recover on the floor.

[Dangerscouse]

2. True, but only for about 12 minutes. 7 to do the test and 5 to recover on the floor.

Hahahaha, only five? You've not gone hard enough

[Elizabeth]

Why not just crank out a 2km?

Very good question.

1). I have only done one or two sessions in the last 6 months or so where I hit a rate of 23 or higher or paces below 1:55 / 500. Almost everything I have done has been geared more towards distance. I would presume that I am very underprepared for a 2k so any result that I based the program from would essentially sell full marathon or 50k potential / performance short. I just knocked out a 1:24:26 HM (2:00.0 / 500) a few weeks back which puts me somewhere around the 7:00 mark for 2k, give or take, but I don't know if I am prepared at this point to hold 1:45 / 500 for a 2k.

2). I know its going to hurt ha!

Is Eddie Fletcher available to answer this question? I don't think a HM is terribly predictive of 2k time, and would personally be inclined to just hit a 2k. But I have a feeling he's worked with rowers whose endurance is stronger than their speed and would have an idea of how to handle it.

[contdrift86]

2. True, but only for about 12 minutes. 7 to do the test and 5 to recover on the floor.

Hahahaha, only five? You've not gone hard enough

I have a weird ability to recover quickly from efforts, I know I am very much an outlier in this regard (at least amongst my friends).

[jcross485]

1. I do the majority of my training at 18-20SPM as well, do about 25 minutes a week at R25+ out of 6 hours so I know that feeling. However without much specific training around the 2km I just knocked out a PB of 6:59.5. Didn't expect anything and went out way too hot but was able to hold onto it and get a decent time, which has also changed my SS efforts as I have shifted their intensity up a few watts.

2. True, but only for about 12 minutes. 7 to do the test and 5 to recover on the floor.

Well noted. I will go ahead and get one done in the coming days. I will have my puke bucket nearby just in case.

Is Eddie Fletcher available to answer this question? I don't think a HM is terribly predictive of 2k time, and would personally be inclined to just hit a 2k. But I have a feeling he's worked with rowers whose endurance is stronger than their speed and would have an idea of how to handle it.

I would tend to agree that HM isn't predictive of 2k but I would think HM is more predictive of structuring a FM/50k (or more) program than 2k time. I think I am more in the endurance better than speed camp as opposed to other way around, based upon prior run stuff as well.

[GlennUk]

For those who are familiar with the Eddie Fletcher Marathon Plan - it notes you need to know 2k time and max HR. The HR piece I have down; the 2k time I do not. Do anyone know if it is practical to pick another known (ie. HM) time/pace within the chart and use it to select target pace ranges?

For example, I did my most recent HM at 2:00.0/500 pace and was not far off of my limit. That would put my 2k time, according to the chart, somewhere between 6:56 - 7:08. Based on current ability / fitness, that "seems" to be fair.

FWIW i used the EF plan for a few years and had some feedback form Eddie and took some advice, he is very amenable, but it is his business so please bear that in mind if you ask him for time. He is a nice helpful and obviously knowledgeable guy.

With regards to paces, these form the basis for the target paces for the various reps, and to be frank,. once you have settled into the programme IMHO your 'known' 2k time becomes irrelevant, its a starting point.

I did have a 2k time but i wouldn't say it was all out effort, and i found that as i progressed in the plans and my body adapted the paces/spm./hr values essentially sorted themselves out. FWIW i did see genuine improvements over the time i used the EF plan, rowing numerous marathon distances in training over the 3 years, a 60kl and a 116k row, plus a good effort resulting in a time of 3hrs 11mins as a 62 year old i was disappointed, not in the training plan, but in my execution, i reckon i could have taken 5mins off that time at the level of fitness i was at the time had i paced it properly. Sub 3 hours was a reasonable prospect with some more training .

HTH

Glenn

[jcross485]

FWIW i used the EF plan for a few years and had some feedback form Eddie and took some advice, he is very amenable, but it is his business so please bear that in mind if you ask him for time. He is a nice helpful and obviously knowledgeable guy.

With regards to paces, these form the basis for the target paces for the various reps, and to be frank,. once you have settled into the programme IMHO your 'known' 2k time becomes irrelevant, its a starting point.

I did have a 2k time but i wouldn't say it was all out effort, and i found that as i progressed in the plans and my body adapted the paces/spm./hr values essentially sorted themselves out. FWIW i did see genuine improvements over the time i used the EF plan, rowing numerous marathon distances in training over the 3 years, a 60k and a 116k row, plus a good effort resulting in a time of 3hrs 11mins as a 62 year old i was disappointed, not in the training plan, but in my execution, i reckon i could have taken 5mins off that time at the level of fitness i was at the time had i paced it properly. Sub 3 hours was a reasonable prospect with some more training .

HTH

Glenn

Much appreciate the feedback and insight! I've taken the EF program as a guide and more or less built my own program around the general structure with some of the things I'm finding work for me.

[p_b82]

I'm potentially - maybe foolishly - thinking of "celebrating" my 42 orbits round the sun next year with a 42k+ change row.... this would be early April.

I'm currently building up longer pieces towards another HM soonish and figure that extending the duration/volume over the next 4 months could be doable - esp as I'll be backing the pace off from the HM sessions if I shift focus.

I think my main and major concern is the nerve pain I develop if I'm sat on the erg without getting up for more than 80 mins - seat pads have helped to extend this starting from 50mins to 80 mins, but the only mitigating way to have it die down is to take almost all the weight of my right cheek; I can do this via leaning on the go, but it has a few side effects wrt rhythm and posture.

My prediction for my HM pace seems to be around 2:17-2:18 - although that may be skewed by using a sub-optimal SR (currently 20), so I was thinking 2:22-2:25 for my target pace - My thinking being go at the former and that will probably result in overall of the latter allowing for short breaks if needed. potentially that's ~3hr20 sort of time.

I don't think I'm going to follow any specific plans - but I've had a look at a couple and the 80k plans found in the c2 training v2 guide looks to match with how I imagined I'd do things pretty closely tbh:
Each week gradually increase the volume via one longer SS row - I think I'd aim to push this out to 35-38k so I can get a better steer on how I'm going to cope physically and to ID any potential "on the day" alterations needed earlier around fuelling/drinking/resting etc- I reckon 38k would be around 3hours seat time.
I'll be doing a mixture of shorter/higher pace rows interspersed during the rest of the week to keep training variation.

Any of the above ringing any alarm bells for those who've done a FM or two already?

[Dangerscouse]

Any of the above ringing any alarm bells for those who've done a FM or two already?

No alarm bells at all mate, and this is more or less what I did.

Make sure to test out your preferred energy gels if you're using them. SIS gels, probably the best known brand, give me stomach ache, but High5 gels are good for me

[GlennUk]

I think my main and major concern is the nerve pain I develop if I'm sat on the erg without getting up for more than 80 mins - seat pads have helped to extend this starting from 50mins to 80 mins, but the only mitigating way to have it die down is to take almost all the weight of my right cheek; I can do this via leaning on the go, but it has a few side effects wrt rhythm and posture.

IMHO PITA is partly caused by technique/posture, i found i had problems also in my right butt cheek which i traced to a slight movement of my seat pad over time, causing a bit of pressure whet ultimately lead to PITA. If you can work out what causes it, and stop doping it/letting it happen if you can.

JMHO

Glenn

[p_b82]

IMHO PITA is partly caused by technique/posture, i found i had problems also in my right butt cheek which i traced to a slight movement of my seat pad over time, causing a bit of pressure whet ultimately lead to PITA. If you can work out what causes it, and stop doping it/letting it happen if you can.

JMHO

Glenn

I hear what you're saying - I think sadly there's something that's just wired up differently left to right leg for me, as I have sitting issues on "unusual seats" that affect my right leg more than left.

I feel a different squeeze/pressure at the top of my right calf than I do my left - that is exacerbated if I over-compress - and that gives eventual pins and needles if I ignore it as well.
I have tight calves, and very limited ankle mobility in the "up/down" plane - (I can't squat on my heels for example - either heels up or I fall over backwards) - I remember having excruciating growing pains in my right calf as a boy too.

So I fear all I can do is manage/mitigate rather than cure, but I'll certainly bear your comments/suggesting in mind - it may result in a different seat/seatpad.

[Dangerscouse]

So I fear all I can do is manage/mitigate rather than cure, but I'll certainly bear your comments/suggesting in mind - it may result in a different seat/seatpad.

My wife was a breech birth and had dislocated hips (nowadays they'd do a caeserian), so she has one left slightly longer than the other and struggles with certain movements, but she has thoroughly managed to work around it

I can appreciate that physiology is just different for some people, so hopefully you'll find a solution/ work around

[cherwenka]

Thanks @GlennUk for pointing me to this great thread from our Indoor Rowing Community Facebook group. And thanks everybody for these valuable posts and responses.

I'm doing my first 100km erg in two days. Curious to hear this group's thoughts on my drag factor plan.

(As background, I've done 5 erg marathons over the past few years including a 2:56:07 finish two months ago. I've also done 3 full Ironman triathlons plus 3 half-Irons. I'll be following the same carbs/sodium/water plan that worked for me on the road. My IM coach called nutrition the 4th discipline in triathlons. I'm also a lifetime rower--now 52, took my first stroke in 1990.)

I'm targeting a 7:06 finish (2:07.9 avg split) but given this is the first one and I've never erged beyond 50km, I'm open to surprises.

So here's my question: has anybody changed their drag factor halfway through their 100km piece? I'm only considering it because I really want to keep my splits around 2:07 for the first half. At my preferred DF of 130 and stroke rate 21, I default to a 2:00-2:02 split and my heart rate gets over 140.

In my last FM, I averaged HR 148 (88% of my max 168.) There's no way I'm holding that for 100km. I'm going to do all I can to keep my HR 139-140 for the first 75km, then let it climb. I think that's the safest way to prevent me bonking.

So back to DF... the only way I can comfortable relax to a 2:07 split at a DF of 130 is to drop my rate to 19, and I'm worried that's too low. I want to get the wheel spinning nice and loose to keep my muscles relaxed, and I feel like 21-22 is the sweet spot. So I'm thinking about starting out at a DF 120 or maybe even 115. Then as I fatigue in the back half, I move it up to my comfortable DF 130.

I suspect I'm overthinking this. Would love to hear this group's thoughts.

[Citroen]

So here's my question: has anybody changed their drag factor halfway through their 100km piece? I'm only considering it because I really want to keep my splits around 2:07 for the first half. At my preferred DF of 130 and stroke rate 21, I default to a 2:00-2:02 split and my heart rate gets over 140.

It's explicitly disallowed by the C2 rules - due to the way a model B worked. It also won't make any real difference over that distance. What you need to do is pick a pace that you can sustain regardless of how bad you feel towards the end and that's at a fixed drag factor. There may be some scope for negative splitting but again that's usually used for 2K not 100K.

DF 130 is higher than I use (as an almost lightweight). I think it's on the high side.
https://www.concept2.com/news/damper-and-drag-olympians

But, if you're happy at 130 stick at it for everything.

Don't base all of your training on HR unless you've done a step test to failure or a lab where they measure your HR and bands. You won't know your highest possible rate, you won't know your UT2, UT2, AT, TR and AN thresholds.