Tracking rowing workouts - Garmin Fenix Or Ergdata/Ergzone

[learnfpga]

Hi All - First time poster but a long time rower.

I have been using Concept 2 (PM5) Ergdata to track my rowing and upload everything to the logbook. I recently purchased Fenix 6 pro and have connected logbook to allow sending data to Garmin connect. This way all of my rowing data from C2 goes into Garmin connect after every workout. Fenix 6 also has indoor rowing feature and is able to connect to PM5 during workout. This method bypasses logbook because data from PM5 is going straight to Garmin connect.

Please see screenshots attached.

pic-1. Rowing with PM5 connected to Garmin Fenix (bypass ergdata)
pic-2. Rowing with Ergdata/Ergzone which goes into logbook and then transfers to Garmin connect.

https://imgur.com/a/z8aquqw

It seems that pic-1 gives richer data. For instance it tells about training affect (aerobic and anaerobic) exercise load etc. Also, since Garmin is my go to system to track all workouts, it will be better to use option 1 rather than 2.
I need advise in terms of what is the best way to track this.

Am I correct in thinking that option 1 is better?
Am I losing something by not going through C2 logbook?

Thanks in advance

[Dangerscouse]

Welcome to the forum.

I think it's all a matter of preference. The logbook is ideal, amongst other things, if you want to take part in the regular challenges, rank your distance or have a training partner.

Apart from that there's no specific need to use it that I can think of, and I managed to not log circa 15-18 million metres.

[obaidi]

Same question here. The only data field I see in LogBook that is not in Garmin Connect is the Drag Factor, although I'm not sure if that's a useful data field anyway.

It would great if there is a service to sync Garmin Indoor Rowing activities to C2 LogBook. Judging from C2 APIs, that should be hard to write.

[mitchel674]

Don't forget the Concept2 swag you get for milestones uploaded to the logbook.

I still wear my 1mm and 5mm shirts with pride and have my marathon pins on my desk. Next stop is my 10mm sweatshirt!

[JaapvanE]

It seems that pic-1 gives richer data. For instance it tells about training affect (aerobic and anaerobic) exercise load etc. Also, since Garmin is my go to system to track all workouts, it will be better to use option 1 rather than 2.
I need advise in terms of what is the best way to track this.

Am I correct in thinking that option 1 is better?
Am I losing something by not going through C2 logbook?

Thanks in advance

I have a similar combination of a Concept2 with a Garmin watch, and to be honest, Garmin is awfull when displaying some key metrics. In the app their graph shows speed instead of pace, and I never got splits to work properly through that route.

When I want to see progress, I still go to the Concept2 site, as in the Garmin site it is quite difficult to select all rowing sessions with the same distance.

BTW, I started to use the ErgZone app instead of ErgData recently, the metrics are more accurate and I can push the training targets and all related settings from the app to the PM5. And it still uploads verified rows to Concept2.

[HornetMaX]

I have a similar combination of a Concept2 with a Garmin watch, and to be honest, Garmin is awfull when displaying some key metrics. In the app their graph shows speed instead of pace, and I never got splits to work properly through that route.

I've read around that a recent (2023) improvement on Garmin side allows some watches (Fenix 6 & 7, Instinct 2 & 2X, maybe others) to connect to the PM5 via ANT FE-C: this means that the PM5 sends all the relevant measures to the watch which in turn can calculate all its physiological stuff (Training Effect, etc) and you can use the "Indoor Rowing" activity from your watch. Note: you still need to manually start and stop the activity on the watch and there seems to be/have been a problem with Power not going to zero during rest intervals.

Some (but not all) of the physiological stuff seems also to be computed if you simply forward the workout from the concept2 logbook to Garmin Connect (i.e. no need to record the session on the watch).

Some people seems to say that they enable the forwarding c2 logbook -> Garmin connect *and* they also log on the watch: this generates a double logging on Garmin Connect but you can either delete the duplicate session on Garmin connect later (the physio stats stays updated) or you can even not save the session at all on the watch ("Discard" it when you're done) as even in that case the physio stats are updated.

Last point: there's no activity dedicated to SkiErg, but there are workarounds (cardio or other activity).

If Black Friday makes the price of an Instinct 2X drop, I may go for one and do some tests.

[JaapvanE]

I've read around that a recent (2023) improvement on Garmin side allows some watches (Fenix 6 & 7, Instinct 2 & 2X, maybe others) to connect to the PM5 via ANT FE-C: this means that the PM5 sends all the relevant measures to the watch which in turn can calculate all its physiological stuff (Training Effect, etc) and you can use the "Indoor Rowing" activity from your watch. Note: you still need to manually start and stop the activity on the watch and there seems to be/have been a problem with Power not going to zero during rest intervals.

ANT+ always has always been part of Garmin, as they invented it. For specific watch types, that has always been the case. So my Garmin Epix can recieve HR, pace (they use time/500m now), power, stroke rate, and distance per stroke from the PM5. My Garmin can add breating rate and skin temperature to it as well. Breathing rate is an interesting metric as it highlights where you start to struggle. I find it so telling I added a datascreen for just that metric (and the stroke rate) on my watch.

The Android app is updated, and is much better now, and provides a better view on most charts then ErgData. But as my watch uses ANT+ and ErgData BLE, you can use both side by side.

Some (but not all) of the physiological stuff seems also to be computed if you simply forward the workout from the concept2 logbook to Garmin Connect (i.e. no need to record the session on the watch). But Garmin is actively working on the app and backend, so that might improve.

AFAIK, the most important training metrics (i.e. training load, recovery time) are not calculated when the watch hasn't recorded it.

Some people seems to say that they enable the forwarding c2 logbook -> Garmin connect *and* they also log on the watch: this generates a double logging on Garmin Connect but you can either delete the duplicate session on Garmin connect later (the physio stats stays updated) or you can even not save the session at all on the watch ("Discard" it when you're done) as even in that case the physio stats are updated.

That is my understanding as well (although I disabled the C2 integration as I record every session on my watch as well). If necessary, you can manually download the .fit file from C2, and manually upload it to Garmin Connect.

[JaapvanE]

I've read around that a recent (2023) improvement on Garmin side allows some watches (Fenix 6 & 7, Instinct 2 & 2X, maybe others) to connect to the PM5 via ANT FE-C: this means that the PM5 sends all the relevant measures to the watch which in turn can calculate all its physiological stuff (Training Effect, etc) and you can use the "Indoor Rowing" activity from your watch.

Please note they target a certain demographic with each watch, so where some watches can connect to a C2, others can not. If you want to be sure, search for the review of the watch at dcrainmaker.com, and look if it supports the "Smart trainer" profile. As I see it, it does: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2023/04/gar ... ipped.html

[HornetMaX]

ANT+ always has always been part of Garmin, as they invented it. For specific watch types, that has always been the case.

My bad, what changed recently is the fact some physio stuff is computed also on third party activities: https://www.reddit.com/r/concept2/comme ... _training/. Connecting via ANT FE-C predates that indeed (on some watches).

AFAIK, the most important training metrics (i.e. training load, recovery time) are not calculated when the watch hasn't recorded it.

Training Effect is now. What is unclear is the others, but probably not. So yeah, probably better to log on the watch too.

Do you have a SkiErg ? Do you log SkiErg sessions ? I've read SkiErg users complain about the lack of dedicated activity but I'm not sure what's the problem as you can duplicate a "Cardio" activity and name it "SkiErg" or something.

[JaapvanE]

Do you have a SkiErg ? Do you log SkiErg sessions ? I've read SkiErg users complain about the lack of dedicated activity but I'm not sure what's the problem as you can duplicate a "Cardio" activity and name it "SkiErg" or something.

I would love to try one! Still haven't seen one in any gym or so, and they are too expensive to "just buy". So I'm still extremely curious. A friend of mine has one, but he lives in Slovenia, so that is way too far for me (I live in the Netherlands).

As I see it, you add the PM5 as an ANT+ sensor, and from there it will report all metrics. Perhaps it would be sane to copy the rowing activity as that tends to record strokerate/cadance by design. But indeed, afterward you can change the type of excercise in Garmin Connect, so no big issue there.

[HornetMaX]

I would love to try one! Still haven't seen one in any gym or so, and they are too expensive to "just buy". So I'm still extremely curious. A friend of mine has one, but he lives in Slovenia, so that is way too far for me (I live in the Netherlands).

Well, some Garmin watches are as expensive as a SkiErg or almost

As I see it, you add the PM5 as an ANT+ sensor, and from there it will report all metrics. Perhaps it would be sane to copy the rowing activity as that tends to record strokerate/cadance by design. But indeed, afterward you can change the type of excercise in Garmin Connect, so no big issue there.

There are some quirks it seems but it's hard to tell as some info may be outdated now. Probably easier for me just to get a watch and do some testing.

One annoying thing: the VO2max estimation only works for running and cycling, despite the fact this could easily be added for indoor rowing too (the original research paper was including rowing, IIRC). Not a big deal, but because of that if you don't run/cycle you won't get Training Status information (I think).

BTW, poking around I've stumbled on this page (you may be interested): https://c2usa.fogbugz.com/?W193758

[JaapvanE]

Well, some Garmin watches are as expensive as a SkiErg or almost

Yeah, that small detail wasn't lost on my wife either

One annoying thing: the VO2max estimation only works for running and cycling, despite the fact this could easily be added for indoor rowing too (the original research paper was including rowing, IIRC). Not a big deal, but because of that if you don't run/cycle you won't get Training Status information (I think).

It is complicated. My VO2Max estimation is based on walking about 4 to 5K every weekday.

But training status also includes training load, which does include rowing.

I think a frequent measurement of VO2Max is needed for training status. It seems to accept a weekly walk of about 2K.

[HornetMaX]

One annoying thing: the VO2max estimation only works for running and cycling, despite the fact this could easily be added for indoor rowing too (the original research paper was including rowing, IIRC). Not a big deal, but because of that if you don't run/cycle you won't get Training Status information (I think).

It is complicated. My VO2Max estimation is based on walking about 4 to 5K every weekday.

But training status also includes training load, which does include rowing.

I think a frequent measurement of VO2Max is needed for training status. It seems to accept a weekly walk of about 2K.

Yeah but why needing that when one rows 50Km per week (and the same methodology used to estimate VO2max from running/walking/cycling could be used for rowing) ?
I may record my weekly supermarket visit (eyeballing, it may be > than 2Km from the car parking slot, shopping and back to car parking slot) as an "activity" to get my VO2max estimation but again, that seem silly given the next day I row an half-marathon on an erg (which, very likely, would provide a better VO2max estimation without the need of complex stuff like "stopping at a red light").

[JaapvanE]

I may record my weekly supermarket visit (eyeballing, it may be > than 2Km from the car parking slot, shopping and back to car parking slot) as an "activity" to get my VO2max estimation but again, that seem silly given the next day I row an half-marathon on an erg (which, very likely, would provide a better VO2max estimation without the need of complex stuff like "stopping at a red light").

That 'stopping at red light' is actually excluded from the VO2Max calculation. See https://www.firstbeatanalytics.com/en/f ... ess-level/

FYI: Firstbeat is the Garmin company making its algorithms.

On OpenRowingMonitor I've played with VO2Max and essentially there are two algorithms: the original and Concept2's. The latter only works on all out 2K's. I implemented them both, and applied a more generic approach of Paul's Law to the pace of C2's so itworks on a generic distance. In results both algorithms get quite close. However, my rowing VO2Max is around 35, my walking is around 45. Either the algorithms are less usefull, or my rowing technique sucks. Both are valid interpretations. So it isn't that trivial to measure VO2Max.

[HornetMaX]

I may record my weekly supermarket visit (eyeballing, it may be > than 2Km from the car parking slot, shopping and back to car parking slot) as an "activity" to get my VO2max estimation but again, that seem silly given the next day I row an half-marathon on an erg (which, very likely, would provide a better VO2max estimation without the need of complex stuff like "stopping at a red light").

That 'stopping at red light' is actually excluded from the VO2Max calculation. See https://www.firstbeatanalytics.com/en/f ... ess-level/

I know. Just saying that they have something complex (that works on running/wlking, including "pause" detection) and don't have something that seems much more trivial (rowing VO2max from a steady state session).

FYI: Firstbeat is the Garmin company making its algorithms.

Yeah seen that, they acquired Firstbeat.

On OpenRowingMonitor I've played with VO2Max and essentially there are two algorithms: the original and Concept2's. The latter only works on all out 2K's. I implemented them both, and applied a more generic approach of Paul's Law to the pace of C2's so itworks on a generic distance. In results both algorithms get quite close. However, my rowing VO2Max is around 35, my walking is around 45. Either the algorithms are less usefull, or my rowing technique sucks. Both are valid interpretations. So it isn't that trivial to measure VO2Max.

I think I've read Garmin keeps separate VO2max for running (incl. walking) and cycling, as they say they are indeed different (different muscles, you can be good at one and bad at the other, probably within some reasonable margins).

Don't know what they use, but RowingLevel gives you an estimate of your VO2max from your stats (gender/age/weight) and your time on any distance. If I check all my PBs (between 500m and a FM) all my VO2max estimated are between 54 and 60 (only my 1min seems a bit of an outlier at 64).