Some questions about longer distances

[p_b82]

I use this rule of thumb

distance/split relative to 2K
500m/-10
1K/-5
2K/0
5K/+6.6
6K/+7.9
10K/+11.6
HM/+17
FM/+22

so a 2:05 pace for a moderately hard HM would be in the ball park - you may want to drop it lower depending on how you build up to it though.

For example I need to get used to the discomfort of a 1hr+ on the erg in one go, and I physically struggle with nerve pain in my right leg after about 70mins regardless what I do to try to mitigate it (short of getting a huge comfy seat which I'm loathe to do), so I build up to an 18k row gradually before taking on the HM - if I can do the 18k at the pace I wish, I know I can do the last 3k.

Probably as you build towards it whatever your approach, you spend a little time finding the stroke rate sweet spot for your pace as that will make it easier. (unless you're stupid like me and want to do one rate capped lol)

[Dangerscouse]

I'd really like to try some HMs at a slow pace and then, if I'm feeling comfortable, have a go at rating up at bit. I imagine pacing will be very difficult here as it's uncharted terrain for me. If I'm doing 10ks reasonably hard out at around 1:58, Would I aim for 2:05s?

I'd aim for a slightly slower pace, maybe 2:06 for the first half and then increase it to circa 2:04 depending on how it feels.

The first HM is a guess, as we all have different abilities, strengths and weaknesses so you may find it's easier or harder than expected. Stroke rate can also be important too, as you need to find the sweet spot between strength and aerobic fitness, so this may be different from your 10k stroke rate.

[jcross485]

I've never done a session longer than 10k, but this is not due to feeling like I'm not fit enough or worrying that I wouldn't enjoy it. My main concern is that longer sessions would lean me out too much, which, at 70kg, would not be a good thing. At the moment I'm trying to put on weight and bulk up a bit, so focussing mainly on a couple of sessions up to 10k per week at UT2 and then a couple of sessions of high intensity strength work with intervals. I'm also doing weights. And eating a lot. I'm already up to 71.5kg.

Do longer distances (eg HMs) necessarily mean losing weight and muscle mass?

Are longer distances good training for shorter distances, or only good for more ultra endurance work?

Is the recovery time on HMs about the same when sticking to UT2?

Is it recommended to fuel up before a longer session?

I don't drink water at all during 10k, would it be the same with 20k or is it necessary to somehow take a drink while not letting up on the stroke?

I used to do a lot of road cycling and mostly quite long distances, so my body is well suited to endurance activities. When I was at my fittest on the bike I had dropped down to 67kg, which I really didn't like. It was great for 1 hour+ hill climbs, but I felt like I'd been burning off muscle mass and had lost a bit of power.

Everyone that has posted here thus far has provided a ton of valuable information for you!

My $.02 as a relatively new rower who will likely continue with longer distance work as a focus, albeit with some blocks focused on shorter duration power / pace at some points during the year.

- Do longer distances (eg HMs) necessarily mean losing weight and muscle mass? Not necessarily. This will come down to a calories thing. I've been training with a fair bit of volume and my weight is stable. I've noticed much more muscle maintenance and a more favorable body composition when rowing as my main aerobic / endurance / cardiovascular modality as compared to running. That said, do not neglect strength training.

- Are longer distances good training for shorter distances, or only good for more ultra endurance work? Longer distances are the base upon which everything else is built, IMO. It's an extreme example, but a recent podcast with Eric Murray I heard had him mention upwards of 200k+ a week for a 2k race. That said, you cannot neglect higher intensity work to maximize speed / pace / power in the shorter events. The longer aerobic work is the cake, the higher intensity work is the icing. The best cake has the right mixture of both - all cake and no icing is not good, all icing and no cake is not good either.

- Is the recovery time on HMs about the same when sticking to UT2? I am not 100% sure that you mean by this but will share experience with recovery. The last time I did a hard HM, which was not too far off what would have been maximum ability on the day, I did have some systemic fatigue but that was gone within 1-2 days. The day after the HM, I did two separate 10k sessions at an easy pace to help flush out the system, a 12k easy session the next day, and got back to normal programming from there.

- Is it recommended to fuel up before a longer session? I personally train fasted just about 100% of the time. I do make sure I am getting plenty of fluids and some electrolytes in first thing in the morning upon waking and but I rarely, if ever, have calories in the system. This comes more from the running thing; I always felt more sluggish and had a higher HR for a given effort if I ate within a few hours of running and, because I normally train in morning within a few hours of waking, I just hydrate, train, and eat after. I do think though that you can get away with training with more food in the system while rowing as opposed to running as you're not necessarily carrying your body through space as much.

- I don't drink water at all during 10k, would it be the same with 20k or is it necessary to somehow take a drink while not letting up on the stroke? Most of my training was done where I would split longer sessions into shorter blocks with a 1:00 break to towel off and grab water (ie. 3 x 6k with 1:00 between, 2 x 8k with 1:00 between, etc.). I am working on building into the longer sessions without the break so that I can maintain a pace during a FM / 50k with as few breaks or let ups as possible as its harder to get the fly going back to pace once it slows down a lot. That said, during my HM's I've done, both were without any breaks for water, food, etc.

[hikeplusrow]

I have to say that the day after a long erg (say 14k+) I'll generally elect do a different activity, even if the long session was done at UT2. The day after a HM, I'm definitely not rowing.

[DaveD33]

I don't have anything meaningful to add but I will say I'm surprised at how long you all row without stopping to drink.

For me, anything over ~5-6km requires at least a squirt of water or my mouth starts to feel so dry and sticky that it becomes a distraction. Admittedly I'm used to drinking frequently while playing my sport of choice and I haven't made a point to force myself not to drink to see how long I can go, but after reading this thread I feel like I must be doing something wrong.

[hikeplusrow]

The thing is that many people don't drink nearly enough, and give no thought to the idea of adequately hydrating prior to a workout. For example, if you're doing a workout after work, you need to be consciously hydrating whilst at work so you're ready to hit the deck running as soon as you get home. If your urine isn't clear prior to working out, you're dehydrated.

[DaveD33]

I won't say that others aren't drinking enough or aren't properly hydrated because that can vary a lot by individual. What I can say is that I've usually drank at least 64-96 ounces of straight water by the time I row at night, plus whatever I got from food and coffee etc., and I still prefer to stop periodically for a quick drink. Doing a half marathon without water sounds like pure self-inflicted torture.

I use a basic green Gatorade squeeze bottle and I'm able to drink without interrupting my split times or my own rhythm too badly, but I've seen others here mention everything from drinking from a glass to more elaborate setups involving hanging a Camelbak bladder from the ceiling, so maybe that's got something to do with it?

Sorry for the tangent, I didn't mean to derail the conversation but I'm really curious if my need to drink is the result of something bigger that's causing me to leave performance and gains on the table.

[Dangerscouse]

I won't say that others aren't drinking enough or aren't properly hydrated because that can vary a lot by individual. What I can say is that I've usually drank at least 64-96 ounces of straight water by the time I row at night, plus whatever I got from food and coffee etc., and I still prefer to stop periodically for a quick drink. Doing a half marathon without water sounds like pure self-inflicted torture.

I use a basic green Gatorade squeeze bottle and I'm able to drink without interrupting my split times or my own rhythm too badly, but I've seen others here mention everything from drinking from a glass to more elaborate setups involving hanging a Camelbak bladder from the ceiling, so maybe that's got something to do with it?

Sorry for the tangent, I didn't mean to derail the conversation but I'm really curious if my need to drink is the result of something bigger that's causing me to leave performance and gains on the table.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, especially if you feel like you need a drink. I regularly drink at least two litres of water, plus another 1.5 litres in decaf tea and about another 600ml of coffee, so hydration is never an issue for me, even though I do sweat a lot.

I suspect there is some loss of performance due to your needing to drink, to what extent is very hard to guess at, but I'd never consider drinking in any ranked TT other than an FM due to the drop in performance BUT all of these were done at a higher stroke rate so there's possibly less of an issue if you're going at, say r24 or lower.

[Elizabeth]

On the topic of hydration and nutrition, there's what's necessary and what's ideal. I think comments here, and in the ultra-endurance thread, seem to skew more towards what's necessary. Hydration/nutrition aren't necessary for half-marathon distances. They are for a 100k. They become necessary somewhere in the middle.

But, ideally, you would probably enter with carbs in your system, and replace a certain amount of carbs, electrolytes, and fluids as you go. Fasted training has some advantages. But it also leads to an increased risk of certain types of injuries, and leaves me personally in a position where I struggle to fuel longer distances, multi-event competitions, even multiple training sessions per day. All of that is more important to me than the potential benefits of fasted training.

For a longer training session, I frequently do something like 4x20:00/1:30r or 3x30:00/2:00r or similar. This gives opportunities to hydrate and take in some carbs easily.

For longer races or time trials, it gets harder, because both stopping and rowing one-handed while consuming nutrition will temporarily affect your splits. I don't find that the trade-off is worth it for anything up to a half marathon. Marathon, yes. Longer, absolutely yes.

[HornetMaX]

I row in anything from 4C to 35C (garage is not heated) and I do an HM every sunday (at zone 2 pace or close, HR <= 150).

When hot/very hot, an HM at that pace (~2:11/500m) without any drink means 2Kg lost for me (measured, twice). That's a lot.
I compared HMs without drinking and with drinking (~1.5L) and I've found that drinking lowered a lot my HR (for the same pace).
Now that temp is back to 12-16C I do feel less need to drink (last one I drank "only" 1L).

I use a camelback and a hose, hang it next to me so that I can grab the valve, suck on it for a few strokes and put it back, without any interruption.
It doesn't affect my pace, but it affects a bit breathing and HR. I did drink this way (~every 15mins or every 3-4K) even in my HM PB (2:04/500m avg).

So yeah, for me drinking is kind of needed for HM and above. YMMV, of course.

Nutrition: I do nothing special, except for FMs. I did only 2, had some gels at hand, a banana and in the second one some salts (one pill before, one during the FM) as I'm prone to cramps and the drink was not providing any. Salt seemed to help (in the 2nd FM cramps were not an issue). Everything else I have no idea

[JaapvanE]

I use a camelback and a hose, hang it next to me so that I can grab the valve, suck on it for a few strokes and put it back, without any interruption.

Do you have any details (pictures?) how you did this? I did hang a camelback from my roof, but it started to swing in my oposite direction, hitting me in the face (that was not a good day). Still trying to fix this issue before I move from HM to FM

[hikeplusrow]

I've never done a FM, but think I'd be inclined to line up bottles by the side of the erg and drink while rowing one handed with my fingers slipped through the central part of the handle.

[JaapvanE]

I've never done a FM, but think I'd be inclined to line up bottles by the side of the erg and drink while rowing one handed with my fingers slipped through the central part of the handle.

Yeah, that is my fallback as well. But I hope to find a solution that will not break my rythem.

[Dangerscouse]

I've never done a FM, but think I'd be inclined to line up bottles by the side of the erg and drink while rowing one handed with my fingers slipped through the central part of the handle.

That's exactly what I do. As long as you do it at circa halfway into the split, it's not too tough to get it back on track. If you do it at the start, the average pace drops a lot more and it can be demoralising to see and very detrimental to try and catch up too quickly.

[Dangerscouse]

On the topic of hydration and nutrition, there's what's necessary and what's ideal. I think comments here, and in the ultra-endurance thread, seem to skew more towards what's necessary. Hydration/nutrition aren't necessary for half-marathon distances. They are for a 100k. They become necessary somewhere in the middle.

Good comment. I only know what works for me, but even that might not be ideal as I don't know what the possible impact is on subsequent sessions. I can't see how it affects me in the moment, but maybe it does have an incremental effect.