Is It Possible To C H E At???????

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Feb 7 2006, 05:49 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Feb 7 2006, 05:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In most parts the online rankings does not mean anything. I could post any time I wished and beat the system if I so choose, this is why I do not rank times as, IND, IND_V etc.<br />The only rows I take as "real" are the "RACE" ones.<br /><br />I want to prove I am the best by beating the best. The way to do this is to race. I would however log a “RACE” time on the rankings, as that is all the proof anyone would need, as I mentioned above. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />A lot of people in the rankings do perform in public, this tells a lot. <br />

[[old] Chad Williams]

I am not talking about the lower levels of the rankings here, more of my own situation, but if I ranked a 2K time of 5.55.1 for a 40-49 heavyweight male I think I should be questioned on it. As I could have got that time any number of ways.<br /><br />If I posted a time of 7.27.4 on the rankings then I don’t think I would be questioned about it, even though I still could have pulled that time using any strange methods behind closed doors. If I then turned up at a competition and pulled a time of 6.03.5, which of my ranking times would be more believable? The sub 6 or the 7.27? this would also be a row using no unorthodox means either.<br /><br />Then you have the added issue of drugs in the sport, you can pull a great time at a race, but how do you know if the person rowing it was free from any performance enhancing drug?<br />

[[old] gcanyon]

<!--QuoteBegin-Masonje+Feb 7 2006, 08:05 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Masonje @ Feb 7 2006, 08:05 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I rowed for UC Santa Barbara in the mid 80's and we would do 10 mile pieces in the fall every 2 weeks or so on Model A's (10 miles was the distance on the Model A odometer; this is equivalent to 5K on the susequent PM's) Usually we would do these pieces one at a time with our teammates watching and cheering us on.  One time we did the pieces two at a time with the ergs side by side in a small room and a wind tunnel seemed to be created.  All of our times went from 17 plus minutes down to around 16 minutes; some were even in the 15:30 range!  This was completely unintentional and obviously inaccurate so we thereafter put an end to the "wind Tunnel" advantage.  As most of you know, the Model A erg had an uncovered wheel with flaps on it to create the resistance.  As far as I know, this "advantage" cannot be replicated with any of the subsequent Concept 2 models.<br /><br />JM <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><smacks own forehead> I've mentioned ways of cheating before, one of them being to disassemble the mechanism and attach an electric drill to the axle, but this would be much simpler. I'd start by duct-taping a duct to the fan input, and attaching a powerful blower fan to it. Then experiment. I'm betting that simply pumping air through would result in a high spin rate for the fan, but not much difference in time, as the calculated drag factor would drop greatly. I could be wrong on that, and if so, then the search for a cheating method is done. Otherwise, it would be necessary to switch the fan on and off and time rowing strokes with it. This would require a bit of practice, but I'm confident it is achievable, and would result in almost arbitrarily fast times without having to disassemble the machine.<br /><br />So as I said before, the online rankings are fun (I'm happy with the present honor system), but not useful for comparison with people you don't trust beforehand.

[[old] ancho]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Feb 7 2006, 05:49 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Feb 7 2006, 05:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In most parts the online rankings does not mean anything. I could post any time I wished and beat the system if I so choose, this is why I do not rank times as, IND, IND_V etc.<br />The only rows I take as "real" are the "RACE" ones.<br /><br />I want to prove I am the best by beating the best. The way to do this is to race. I would however log a “RACE” time on the rankings, as that is all the proof anyone would need, as I mentioned above. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Chad: <br />I agree with you:<br />if you post a time in the ranking, it only means yoy have posted a time in the ranking, independently if its 9:30 or 5:46. But you are in your right to do so, and it's enough for most of us. And posting a time does not oblige you to any further proof.<br />Those who wnat to prove their times beyond any doubt, must attend to official competitions, as in any other sport.<br />Anyway, I think it's absurd cheating a honour system. <br />Chad: Waiting ainxousely for your sanctined race results. <br />

[[old] ancho]

Perhaps you may also cheat using slides (6% improvement in times over all the distances!)

[[old] billandmargaret]

Sometimes we move our model B to the backyard for a row. When the wind gusts, I can feel the difference. I forget which is which, but from one direction (the front?) it gives me an extra "shove", and from the other (the back?) I feel extra resistance. This must be similar to the wind tunnel effect mentioned above.<br /><br />Margaret

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-billandmargaret+Feb 8 2006, 09:01 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(billandmargaret @ Feb 8 2006, 09:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes we move our model B to the backyard for a row.  When the wind gusts, I can feel the difference.  I forget which is which, but from one direction (the front?) it gives me an extra "shove", and from the other (the back?) I feel extra resistance.  This must be similar to the wind tunnel effect mentioned above.<br /><br />Margaret <br /> </td></tr></table><br />If you still have the original PM1 on the B you would see this reflected on the display due to the ~17 stroke DF calculation, but not on the PM2 or later. The idea of changing the damper each stroke and trying to get credit for a high DF while driving with a lower DF is interesting, but with the Df being calculated rather early in the recovery it would have to be done quite precisely and quickly. We've done a few experiments with this and never could "trick" the PM2 or later.<br /><br />The PM2 can be "tricked", by using a very low DF, but it also requires extremely high force production so that the DF "errors out" when at very high revs that end up starving the fan for air, but then can apparently calculate some sort of "valid DF" so a pace is displayed that reflects what a real pace would be if the DF was as constant as it is normally. I'm not sure if this would be truly "cheating" or not, as it does take considerable effort, but certainly nothing like what the PM2 says it does. And anyway, the paces are so ridiculously fast that no one would believe it. (Would they, Pete and Janice?)

[[old] H_2O]

Folks,<br /><br />As I am reading this thread something strange is happening to me!<br />Suddenly I feel younger and stronger.<br />My technique is improving too, although I haven't been on the erg at all!<br />My resting heart rate is dropping. <br />I can feel my oxygen absorption improving.<br />It is a true miracle.<br /><br />I think my times are going to come down a lot.<br />I feel ready to break 6 minutes now.<br />15 minutes for 5K now seems very doable.<br /><br />I wonder if anybody else is having the same experience?<br />

[[old] ekubal]

If I recall correctly, back in the late 1980s (or thereabouts), before there were rules about this sort of thing, Charlie Butt Jr. changed the damper on his erg partway through a piece at the CRASH-Bs. (I believe he moved the damper from most or all the way open to most or all the way closed.) On the model B, this *does* provide a boost (short-term anyways, but if you're sprinting, that's all you need) to your splits (I have no idea why, nor if it works on model C and D ergs). Since it wasn't against the rules, it was allowed; however, the "Butt Maneuver" has been banned ever since.<br /><br />I see nothing wrong with playing around with the vent setting during training pieces, to achieve certain effects (not that I bother with it - I don't know how helpful it would be), but changing the setting during a ranking piece or in a competition is, indeed, cheating (whether it helps you or not, it's against the rules).

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-ekubal+Feb 8 2006, 04:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ekubal @ Feb 8 2006, 04:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I recall correctly, back in the late 1980s (or thereabouts), before there were rules about this sort of thing, Charlie Butt Jr. changed the damper on his erg partway through a piece at the CRASH-Bs.  (I believe he moved the damper from most or all the way open to most or all the way closed.)  On the model B, this *does* provide a boost (short-term anyways, but if you're sprinting, that's all you need) to your splits (I have no idea why, nor if it works on model C and D ergs).  Since it wasn't against the rules, it was allowed; however, the "Butt Maneuver" has been banned ever since.<br /><br />I see nothing wrong with playing around with the vent setting during training pieces, to achieve certain effects (not that I bother with it - I don't know how helpful it would be), but changing the setting during a ranking piece or in a competition is, indeed, cheating (whether it helps you or not, it's against the rules). <br /> </td></tr></table><br />What did his father have to say about that, I wonder?

[[old] Janice]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 8 2006, 05:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 8 2006, 05:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[right] <br />And anyway, the paces are so ridiculously fast that no one would believe it.  (Would they, Pete and Janice?)  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh they might <br />

[[old] Carl Henrik]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Feb 7 2006, 05:10 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Feb 7 2006, 05:10 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not talking about the lower levels of the rankings here, more of my own situation, but if I ranked a 2K time of 5.55.1 for a 40-49 heavyweight male I think I should be questioned on it. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />On the contrary! Anyone could rank a 5:55 so no need to question you there. On the other hand if you pulled 5:55 in an official race then questions should definitely be raised wether you are human or not!

[[old] Godfried]

C H E A T ? ? ? <br /><br />Xeno, do you want to manipulate the erg , or the ranking ?

[[old] Xeno]

<!--quoteo(post=55381:date=Feb 9 2006, 05:29 AM:name=Godfried)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Godfried @ Feb 9 2006, 05:29 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>C H E A T ? ? ? <br /><br />Xeno, do you want to manipulate the erg , or the ranking ?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I had no real agenda. On the Model B you could max out above 1000 Watts by taking three extremely short strokes at the catch by pulling on the arms and continue with one big stroke. <br /><br />XENO

[[old] Ian.cox@oracle.com]

A question that Xeno can answer. Not really in the relms of cheating but more about erg vs rowing. <br /><br />I was lucky enough to attend a clinic last year held by the former gold and silver Olympic medalist, our very own Xeno. In this clinic we were coached on the erg. One of the main items Xeno pointed out for scullers, me in particular was to keep the knees down on the recovery until the body has reached it's forward body angle. Then bend the knees to come up the slide.<br /><br />I have been trying to get this right for about a year and it has helped my times on the water improve dramatically. Thanks to Xeno.<br /><br />I have Xeno's indoor rowing Dvd which is a lot of fun. I have also recorded myself on the erg so I can match my stroke up with Xeno.<br /><br />However on the Erg I have noticed that getting this forward body angle is not as strong. Watching others race on the erg I can see that they don't get their body much past their hips, and their knees are popping up so much that they have to lift the handle over their knees on the drive. I am not talking about average rowers. If you watch rowers like Rob Waddell and Eskild <br /><br /><a href="http://look-at-it.com/ee-worldrecord-uk.asp" target="_blank">http://look-at-it.com/ee-worldrecord-uk.asp</a><br /><br />You will see they do the same on the erg. Very short slide very little body swing.<br /><br />I find that just changing this one thing knocks 10secs of my 2k time.<br /><br />So the question after all that waffle is how much do people adapt their stroke between the erg and the water?