Aging & Drag Factor

[GlennUk]

I recalled being fitter and stronger in my 50s than I was in my 40s - not training smart in my 40s allowed for a further improvement later, evidenced by the timing of my PBs.

+1

[iain]

I have found that after periods of inactivity from 2013-2019 (45-51) and 2021-22 (53-4) that a slightly lower DF seemed to be optimal, during the former period I estimate that my lean mass declined 4-5%. I do use a slightly lower DF (typically 10DF) for >HM as I find that this reduces my tendency to lower the rating as I tire. that said I am at the bottom of the performance league and have no systematic data to support my gut feel for optimal DF. Inconsistent training has meant that my times have not been stable enough to compare rows at different DFs on a systematic enough basis.

[DaveD33]

Mine trended down over the years, eventually falling into the recommended 110 to 130 band.

For an all out sprint like 100M or 500M you need something higher but pretty much everything else is a lighter pull.

Can you expand on why a higher drag factor is needed or helpful for sprints?

When I started using the erg, I would set the drag factor to 120-130 based on what I read here and elsewhere, but have since found that ~105-110 feels better to me. Recently, I also saw a Dark Horse Rowing video discussing DF where he suggested that "fast twitch" athletes might prefer a lower DF and "slow twitch" athletes might do better with a higher drag factor. I would consider myself more of a fast twitch athlete (I play hockey and once upon a time was a decent sprinter and middle distance runner) so I felt somewhat validated, but I'm still not sure I understand why.

Are there objective downsides to using a lower DF?

[JaapvanE]

Are there objective downsides to using a lower DF?

Yep, you can't deliver your power effectively.

I've rowed long distances on every DF for prolonged times (recovery after an injury), and my experience is mixed. Lower dragfactors imply that you need a faster drive to connect to the machine, which is off course limited by your muscle speed. For example (even with spending months at these DF's) a DF70 to DF85 are extremely inefficient for me, as I'm too slow. At DF90 I get more effective, at DF100 all my catches are good. At DF135 I'm most effective for long pieces. At DF160 I can sprint well (by the time my muscles get painfull, I'll have finished). I can row a 10K at DF250 (and even beyond that at DF450 on a non C2 machine), but I need to be extremely carefull with my technique to prevent injury, and doing it more than once a week results in too much strain on my joints.

[iain]

Can you expand on why a higher drag factor is needed or helpful for sprints?

The higher the drag factor the more the fan slows in a given recovery and the slower the handle needs to be moved to produce a given power. When sprinting we use a very fast recovery and high power. This means that relative to slower rowing, the fan slows less and the handle needs to be pulled faster before it "catches" the flywheel and power can be added. Increasing the drag reduces this inefficiency.

[RDL]

Not sure if this will add anything to the conversation but..!

I’m struggling to come back from injury (broken elbow) and after a second layoff I am trying again but with a different mindset.

I haven’t/hadn’t really thought about DF when I started out beyond reading online that men should be about 130 for a heavyweight so aimed for it. IIRC that corresponded with about 5 on my damper.

As I was/am sharing the machine with my wife the damper was constantly being changed and at some point I found I was setting it at 4. No conscious reason why however.

All my PRs for what they are worth were set with a drag of between 120-125.

Since starting again I have just done 3 weeks with the damper down against the bottom stop (is that actually 1 or slightly less?) and that was returning a DF of around 70.
It felt pretty uncomfortable if that’s the right description.
Whatever it did’t feel “right” and I seemed to struggle to sit at a pace/spm comfortably.
Could be technique being rusty too though.
I’ve just stepped up to 2 on the damper (80 DF recorded according to ERGData) and that felt better and more comfortable in comparison.

I will next week step it up again to 3 on the damper and continue to evaluate with the aim to get back to 4 for now.

In regards to DF then and coming from no experience I definitely felt better with higher numbers.
Or at least higher in terms of what I was doing on the 2 periods I was being consistent/not unwell/injured! so sim to build back up.

This discussion though (along with something elsewhere on the site about foot height/ holes on the foot plate) has prompted me to experiment a bit more at these early stages of my attempt to get back into things.

[JaapvanE]

Since starting again I have just done 3 weeks with the damper down against the bottom stop (is that actually 1 or slightly less?) and that was returning a DF of around 70.
It felt pretty uncomfortable if that’s the right description.
Whatever it did’t feel “right” and I seemed to struggle to sit at a pace/spm comfortably.
Could be technique being rusty too though.
I’ve just stepped up to 2 on the damper (80 DF recorded according to ERGData) and that felt better and more comfortable in comparison.

I tore my biceps over a year ago, still recovering. I also started at DF70 and I simply couldn't get the power in, even after a month of rowing. My conclusion was that I'm too heavy and sluggish to perform at that DF. DF80 was better, and DF90 was great for me. I instantly started breaking PR's. DF100 was even better, but switching from DF90 to DF100 for all sessions (60K a week) proved too much, so I'm taking it slow on that transition.

[RDL]

I tore my biceps over a year ago, still recovering. I also started at DF70 and I simply couldn't get the power in, even after a month of rowing. My conclusion was that I'm too heavy and sluggish to perform at that DF. DF80 was better, and DF90 was great for me. I instantly started breaking PR's. DF100 was even better, but switching from DF90 to DF100 for all sessions (60K a week) proved too much, so I'm taking it slow on that transition.

Bummer. Hope the road is not too much longer for you. I’m coming up to 9 months on the elbow. Definitely taking longer than I was led to expect, set back, notwithstanding I guess.

Interesting to see your experience(s) regarding DF are like mine and reassures me I might not be imagining things!

Like I said my intent was to move to 3 on damper next week but I’m actually thinking a few weeks at 2 like I did with 1 and maybe keep doing that until back in the 110 DF area before I start hopefully going hard(er) again. Nothing scientific there. More walk before run. I’m itching to go again though but have already ended up with my face in the dirt on this recovery!

Apologies to OP and others if sidetracked a little. Just wanted to share thoughts on my current experience with DFs.

[iain]

...my intent was to move to 3 on damper next week but I’m actually thinking a few weeks at 2 like I did with 1 and maybe keep doing that until back in the 110 DF area before I start hopefully going hard(er) again. Nothing scientific there. More walk before run. I’m itching to go again though but have already ended up with my face in the dirt on this recovery!

Nothing to stop you doing "hard" workouts although some caution is required not to get carried away and allow the endorphins to hide the damage done...

while no doctor, I would suspect that as londg as the maximum force is kep[t at a lower level then the workout should be fine. The workout intensity can be increased by upping the rating at that lower work per stroke to give a good CV workout.

Hope the recovery goes well.

[JaapvanE]

Nothing to stop you doing "hard" workouts although some caution is required not to get carried away and allow the endorphins to hide the damage done...

while no doctor, I would suspect that as londg as the maximum force is kep[t at a lower level then the workout should be fine. The workout intensity can be increased by upping the rating at that lower work per stroke to give a good CV workout.

My physio (which has rowing experience) explicitly boxed me in by keeping the drag low and the rating high enough to make sure that a badly timed stroke wouldn't cause any damage while getting some moderate excercise. Hitting a too slow flywheel can cause quite some stress on joints which isn't detected by the PM5, especially when technique isn't perfect yet.

[GlennUk]

Can you expand on why a higher drag factor is needed or helpful for sprints?

The higher the drag factor the more the fan slows in a given recovery and the slower the handle needs to be moved to produce a given power. When sprinting we use a very fast recovery and high power. This means that relative to slower rowing, the fan slows less and the handle needs to be pulled faster before it "catches" the flywheel and power can be added. Increasing the drag reduces this inefficiency.

Id also add that in short sprints, the spm is typically much higher than the rowers 'normal' rate, if the fan doesn't slow down enough between strokes the rower cannot move fast enough to put the energy into the fan. When i did my PB for 100m my DR was 225 at 49spm. On subsequent attempts I increased to 56 spm but left the df the same. The flywheel didn't slow down between strokes sufficiently for my speed to allow power to be applied so my time didn't improve, had I increase the df slightly it may have allowed me to improve.

FWIW i did a survey last year of those in the top 10 100m rankings at the time, all used high df and high spm. Id need to check back but form memory i think the lowest df was 180, the highest was 245, with spm up in the 60s. IIRC most were well above the 200 mark.

HTH Glenn

[RDL]

Nothing to stop you doing "hard" workouts although some caution is required not to get carried away and allow the endorphins to hide the damage done...

while no doctor, I would suspect that as londg as the maximum force is kep[t at a lower level then the workout should be fine. The workout intensity can be increased by upping the rating at that lower work per stroke to give a good CV workout.

Hope the recovery goes well.

I will be doing 'harder' sessions but coupled with an at the time stupid move by me and training too hard too soon I messed my recovery up so this time slow and steady for a while longer.

I need to take more time anyway as mechanically I am hindered now if that's the right term as I can no longer fully straighten arm and have a marginal rotation to work with. Both are improving though.

[Dangerscouse]

Not sure if this will add anything to the conversation but..!

I’m struggling to come back from injury (broken elbow) and after a second layoff I am trying again but with a different mindset.

I haven’t/hadn’t really thought about DF when I started out beyond reading online that men should be about 130 for a heavyweight so aimed for it. IIRC that corresponded with about 5 on my damper.

As I was/am sharing the machine with my wife the damper was constantly being changed and at some point I found I was setting it at 4. No conscious reason why however.

All my PRs for what they are worth were set with a drag of between 120-125.

Since starting again I have just done 3 weeks with the damper down against the bottom stop (is that actually 1 or slightly less?) and that was returning a DF of around 70.
It felt pretty uncomfortable if that’s the right description.
Whatever it did’t feel “right” and I seemed to struggle to sit at a pace/spm comfortably.
Could be technique being rusty too though.
I’ve just stepped up to 2 on the damper (80 DF recorded according to ERGData) and that felt better and more comfortable in comparison.

I will next week step it up again to 3 on the damper and continue to evaluate with the aim to get back to 4 for now.

In regards to DF then and coming from no experience I definitely felt better with higher numbers.
Or at least higher in terms of what I was doing on the 2 periods I was being consistent/not unwell/injured! so sim to build back up.

This discussion though (along with something elsewhere on the site about foot height/ holes on the foot plate) has prompted me to experiment a bit more at these early stages of my attempt to get back into things.

Imo, it's valuable to experiment with drag factor as it doesn't demean or gild your PB. It's all about what makes you the most efficient for your physiology.

There was a rower on Instagram who was a big, strong lad, and he found his 2k pace, which was already around the 6:30 area, improved when he dropped it down to circa 110 from 130, and at the opposite end of the spectrum there's Cam (btlifter) who thrives on 200+ for any distance. Sometimes the usual advice isn't always appropriate.

I think I'm going to experiment with a lower drag for a week or two, just to see how it feels

[JaapvanE]

I think I'm going to experiment with a lower drag for a week or two, just to see how it feels

I couldn't agree more, aside noting that experimenting with your strokerate in tandem with this is interesting. I found that at DF90 my sweetspot was around 21 SPM, where on DF100 my sweetspot seems to be around 19 SPM, which actually makes the stroke slower and feel much heavier. Odd, as most people try to increase SPM when increasing DF (makes the stroke feel the same weight), but that is what felt right for me.

[JaapvanE]

I need to take more time anyway as mechanically I am hindered now if that's the right term as I can no longer fully straighten arm and have a marginal rotation to work with. Both are improving though.

Ouch! Hope your mobility increases soon as that kind of mechanical limitations are extremely frustrating in daily life....