Concept2 Rankings with weight selection

[Jean-Paul Vael]

Hi guys,
I'm new to this forum ,getting a nice age from 57years and do whole my life sports..
As young kid 7y started with Judo ,later at age 17 changed to Karate ,did this for 20years and later on i just do exercises with my
bodyweight ,running ,and from my 55y start indoor-rowing as it gives a very nice workout and +80% from your body get trained..love it.
I didn't know enough about rowing machines ,but wanted something quiet as i life in a appartment and don't want to disturb neigbours
to much so i buyed a Apollo Pro XL from First-Degree ,a water-rower ..i call it a luxe rower..great enjoy it for 2years..my times are improving
till i begin to read what are the records and came to Concept2 rankings and all that stuff ,i say yeah ,that's something for me.. searching some
places to try ,and to my surprice the noise was not that bad..i need to buy it..install the ErgData app ,connect it and go..fantastic and after
training done ,everything get nice on the internet and we can compare worldwide..

I have reading around on the forum and see some same problems about people weights as the rankings give only Lightweight -75Kg and Heavyweight +75Kg
I have made a spreadsheet with some data used from these rankings to make my point and it would be much easier like with age selection that
you also have a weight selection..even with the Vo2max.tool on Concept2 website helps alot to show that the differences are to big no matter if
you are a lightweight or heavyweight.

The Log & Rankings are already fantastic ,but with this i find it even more fair and will motivate people even more!

Some links:
My website (i'm also 45y busy with computer-chess) i have a kind of blog where i started at age 50 what i do in sports ,times & Vo2max.results.

https://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/contact-us.php

Spreadsheet with my Ranking idea:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Comments are always welcome..

JP.

[MPx]

Welcome Jean Paul. Interesting work on the stats, and we all like to see comparisons which can give motivation. Your focus on Vo2max is one I've not seen before, but have seen others putting forward similar schemes to take more account of weight, or height, and some other nuances. All have their merits, and all exclude some other potentially significant factors - eg height (length of levers) is often felt critical but there is no classification on that at all.

You mention boxing which does have more weight categories, but nothing on reach. Interestingly jockeys don't have weight categories so they end up starving themselves - which is probably not healthy. Racing drivers need to be of smaller stature, whereas basketball favours the giants. Such is sport. Some have a physical advantage and if/where its put to good use they are "better".

So by all means develop and share your ideas of a more level playing field and take whatever motivation you can from it. But I'd suggest its unlikely to be widely adopted within the sport. JM2C.

[Elizabeth]

It's an interesting idea, but since the current weight system is aligned with competitive criteria with World Rowing and national competitions, I don't see it getting much traction. Within each weight category, people will work to optimize their body for getting the best time possible in their chosen events, which may not align with optimal weight in this system.

Also, the lightweight/heavyweight criteria for ranked pieces is not verified and is not tied to the rower's profile. It's on an honor system. Plus these scores are set over periods of time where the athlete's weight may fluctuate. There's one guy I know who skirts the line between lightweight and heavyweight and will update his weight on pieces accordingly.

[Jean-Paul Vael]

Thanks for these reply's

And that's exactly what people do in other sports with different weight classes..you gone train to get your weight limit!
As for indoor-rowing it's only good for people around 75Kg.. when you are 76-77Kg i will train it off and make that i will reach 74.8Kg.
If you are 74Kg ,why would i pass 75Kg to battle the big guys..but when you have build up more muscles and want to compete with the 80Kg
guys would it make more fair.

Now a 77Kg has to row against one from 90-105Kg ,you never make that time.. same for lightweight the difference is too big when you are
very light-lightweight.

Your fitness condition can be easy checked by your Vo2max. and a 65Kg person can have same Vo2max. as someone from 80Kg but with his weight
advance he will push much more.

The more classes there are (like every 5Kg) the more people will find there place.. same that is done with age! just great..

Like that i think it would be very attractive to bring it even to the Olympic games.. everyone can participate in his own age & weight group!!
Let indoor-rowing be the first sport who do this

I have made some updates in my spreadsheet..click on the different taps under to see other pages.
Have taken the Ranking list from 2023 ,as it has much more data..and i have checked the first 500 people one by one for their profile,
note their weight ,and then i have use Vo2max.tool to calculate one by one their Vo2max.
Then you will see different rankings..with some explain above how list is created.

(I know there will be outliners from people who don't put the right data ,but the idea is there when you have more data)
Without knowing any rower and when checking them one by one i used "!" as mark to say wow very interesting results and to remember them
when i begin to sort them in my list.. and what happen most off them "!!" came to top.. google a few guys and see these are World Champions..
so logic.. and i'm sure that coaches/trainers will use Vo2max. to check for sure the young guys which one has talent ,above Vo2max.80 is
a ultra atlete..if you see someone from 17years above 80 ,well keep a eye on him ,he should be follwed up ,future WC!

In spreadsheet -> MyAgeRange page is what counts for myself..age range 55-59 ,sort them by weight ,and i see i'm one off the lightests.
I know i have a very good condition but to reach the next better time i need higher Vo2max. to reach that ,that i noted after some close
to mine time results.(so next ones to pass)

Your fitness/condition level is at highest point around 30y ,where you also see the highest Vo2max. values
From then on they count that you loose -0.8% Vo2max. every year.

You see what a difference you get in vo2max. i should have more against someone from +74Kg ,while the other 4 in bold is maybe reachable for me..
I battle not only against time but have to overcome also the weight advance from the other guys and need a higher Vo2max. to get a same time!
And when you have these seperate weight classes ,problem solved!

JP.

[Sakly]

Now a 77Kg has to row against one from 90-105Kg ,you never make that time..

I can prove that this is not true. At least not for all distances.
My last HM was done at 1:51.8 and I bet not everyone of the big guys will get that during their sleep. On the other end, my 500m is lacking power, so it is really tough for me to compete there or on even shorter distances/times. But I could compensate by rating up, so I would need to train specifically (exactly what the big guys also have to do).
Referring to weight and height as an excuse to be not able to compete against others is not my game. Sure, some tall guy has a better condition, but he also needs to put in the work.

The more specific groups there will be created, the less competitors are in them. Age group of 5 years, weight group of 5kg, height groups of 5cm...how many attributes shall be grouped? I am exactly one of the guys, who has the biggest disadvantages you described, 77-78kg not low enough to get to LWT, 177cm not tall enough to get easy power strokes through length. Do I complain? No. Do I have fun battling all the tall and big guys and seeing I am capable of getting similar or even better results? Yes.

[Jean-Paul Vael]

Will you make ever 5:40 in 2000m with your weight!?

JP.

[Sakly]

Will you make ever 5:40 in 2000m with your weight!?

JP.

It's less depending on weight, more of height as the lever plays a much higher role. If you get taller, you typically are heavier as it goes hand in hand.
To give you a straight answer: no, 5:40 will never be my PB, but that is also highly depending on my training regime, as I do not fully focus on rowing.
But even if I bulk to 100kg+ this would not get me to 5:40 as height is missing and cannot be changed. Even for the shorter distances I could never get to splits as the big and tall guys get, as I can never reach their stroke length.

[Jean-Paul Vael]

Well ,if you put these people in weight classes ,i see in list even some shorter guys are faster then longer guys ,because they are in same weight range..
Height is important ,but not so much as weight & Vo2max. if you have no condition ,you can be so long you want
i'm 186cm ,66Kg ,the lighest of my age range (in table ranking)..can't compete with +74kg guys as my Vo2max.has then be like a young guy..imposseble

JP.

[jackarabit]

Open comp is the competition of life—a free for all but not free for all to catch the brass ring. Finding a sport which encourages participation by offering competition classed by weight, age, gender, and possibly even fuzzier criteria (how about intellectual potential as well as VO2?) would suit the Navy Seals AND the Navy Fleas and every ONE in between. Discriminating between speed, strength, and endurance/forward tasks (Sasha’s HM edge) produces occasional champions, some of which are very interesting outliers physically and intellectually. I am in awe of uberGOATs. I also respect the fight (and the ingenuity) of underdogs. Pour le sport, mes amis!

[Sakly]

If your logic is right, then it shouldn't be possible for me to compete against rowers ~90kg+ regardless their height and that is not true. My last HM was placed 16 of 773 verified. The next best time, which was <2s faster, was done by
Nicholas Thomas
Age: 45
Country: United States
Location: Athens , AL
Height: 193 cm
Weight: 122.5 kg
Nearly same age, 16cm more height, 44kg more weight. Not knowing if this was his all out HM of course.
Looking at his short distances, mind blowing, unreachable for me. But they don't rely on Vo2max (or a good bit less than the long distances).
In the end it relates all to the distance. A 100m/1min/500m/4min race is a completely different story compared to a HM. In one the heavier guys have advantage, if the weight comes from muscle, in the other the lighter guys have advantage, as they don't have to move their weight 2000 times up and down the rail.
The shorter guys have disadvantage in any distance

[Sakly]

i see in list even some shorter guys are faster then longer guys ,because they are in same weight range..

PS: I think this is a wrong conclusion. They are faster, because they are better trained to the needed condition. And the conditions needed depends vastly on the distance.

[Jean-Paul Vael]

I don't see any conclusion? maybe you didn't read "some"

It's okay guys..it just a opinion.. when i see age range get adjusted not long ago ,i say why not just put a weight selection ,no rules are changed ,just a easy way for comparing! as it already a great tool to use!

I leave it here..
and enjoy rowing

JP.

[Sakly]

", because they are" introduces a conclusion. They are not faster or equally fast, because they have the same weight.

I understand your point, nothing wrong with it. The rules are different to that, so everybody had to deal with it like it is. You are free to choose any other sport, that matches better to your body type to have a better starting point to be competitive

[Spinal]

If your logic is right, then it shouldn't be possible for me to compete against rowers ~90kg+ regardless their height and that is not true. My last HM was placed 16 of 773 verified.

No disrespect Salky but your HM split isn't even that close to the what the big guys in this sport can pull for the full marathon distance or a 90min SS at rate 20. Rowing has been dominated by big tall athletes for a reason.

[Sakly]

If your logic is right, then it shouldn't be possible for me to compete against rowers ~90kg+ regardless their height and that is not true. My last HM was placed 16 of 773 verified.

No disrespect Salky but your HM split isn't even that close to the what the big guys in this sport can pull for the full marathon distance or a 90min SS at rate 20. Rowing has been dominated by big tall athletes for a reason.

No worries, I know you are right, if you refer to the top level trained guys in the top of the rankings.
But you have to put it in perspective: I am rowing for a year and a half now, 3 times/week average, cumulating 45k average (lately a bit more). So I am clearly not training to get to the peak of the iceberg, into the top 5 or so. And I realistically know that this will never happen, even IF I would train fully focused on rowing. But given my amount of training AND my body stats I know that even (much) bigger guys putting in the same work cannot get the same results. So a conclusion that only weighting 10kg more is giving you the huge advantage to be faster without question is not right. Even to be 10cm taller is no guarantee that this will be the case.

If you compare to the top elite specific trained athletes as a "normal guy" you will always lose.