How close should your bum be to heels on the catch?

[skratchgonzo]

Hi all, I'm new to rowing and can't find an answer to this question. When I row how I naturally want to my chair gets really close to my heels in some instances I can actually tap the back of my heels I'm getting so close. I never thought anything of this until I've been trying to better my form and now every rower I watch has a big gap between the chair and their heels. No one ever seems to discuss this, it's very alien to me to keep the gap any info appreciated, thanks.

[Citroen]

Are your shins going over vertical?
Don't do that, it makes for extremely bad form and loses power on your stroke.

If your seat meets your heels then things are worse than that, don't do it you'll lose even more power on your stroke.

[iain]

Some people develop over extension at the catch with a weak position or starting the drive with hands too low and so the start of the drive is merely raising rather than extending the chain. The over extension allows the effective drive to occur from around the correct position and so fixing the seat position without the other faults will actually be slower as the start of the effective drive will now be lost rather than the weaker reversal of the over extension.

[Kerry1960]

You could also try setting your feet a little higher on the foot position and this should prevent you from doing it because the knees won't be able to flex quite so much.

[p_b82]

Hi and Welcome,

There's lots of info about "vertical shins" if you google/search online, the same for the other end of the stroke too much layback at the finish. (C2 website has a section on form and common mistakes)

As others have said, when you go beyond vertical - and your bum's close to your heels, you're not actually generating power to return back up the slide, you generating power to create the gap back to vertical shins - It's wasted energy essentially.

There are always some outliers that can operate outside the "normal" accepted parameters, but generally speaking you don't want to go further than vertical.
a small piece of tape can stop the slide at the right point until you re-adjust your muscle memory.

[skratchgonzo]

Thanks guys, I don't think my shins go much past vertical even when I'm getting close up but my hamstrings fully make contact with my calfs. I'll keep trying not to get so close but I just go so much slower having to adjust haha

[Sakly]

Thanks guys, I don't think my shins go much past vertical even when I'm getting close up but my hamstrings fully make contact with my calfs. I'll keep trying not to get so close but I just go so much slower having to adjust haha

A video from the side would surely help to identify technique issues. Talking about thoughts and feelings typically does not help anyone for these problems

[jamesg]

No one ever seems to discuss this, it's very alien to me to keep the gap any info appreciated, thanks.

See how rowing is done here:
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos
Note the recovery sequence: hands away, then swing, then slide.

With an open knee angle, the legs can act better at the catch, and do a lot of work. Moving flywheels and boats fast needs a lot of power (that is, both speed and force), so we use the legs and hips to do it, where there's plenty of muscle.

Suggest you tie a rope round the rail, at 40-50 cm from the heels, according to height. Also, use low drag so that you can move fast, and set feet low so that you can put your weight on them well before the catch.

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks guys, I don't think my shins go much past vertical even when I'm getting close up but my hamstrings fully make contact with my calfs. I'll keep trying not to get so close but I just go so much slower having to adjust haha

I'll offer a different POV. You might be an outlier and produce more power doing it this way, so changing might be counter productive. There are plenty of examples of outliers so don't always think that you have to do it exactly as per the best practice.

[JaapvanE]

I'll offer a different POV. You might be an outlier and produce more power doing it this way, so changing might be counter productive. There are plenty of examples of outliers so don't always think that you have to do it exactly as per the best practice.

I saw this video recently: https://youtu.be/YTKi8i42kAI which tries to debunk the "shins vertical" approach, but I'm not yet convinced.

[dabatey]

Do some 500m intervals. Although intervals that short aren't conducive to a 'good' stroke, it will soon teach you that bum doesn't want to be going right up to heels.

[Ante]

To me, the vertical shin thing is about protecting your knees ánd getting better numbers.
If my knees pass my ankles at the catch, I don’t have as much power (such as it is). It just fééls active and powerful to drive up with the seat, but my numbers say otherwise…

More importantly, I don’t want the injuries. As others already pointed out, the large muscles in the legs are well equipped for the heavy work of rowing. The construction of the knees not so much. Maybe I feel this more acutely at age 62, but I’m convinced it pays off to prevent injury at any age.
Also it is easier to keep a straight back if you’re not all folded up at the front of the machine. It prevents back injuries.
Sorry to keep on harping on the subject, but as rowing is repetition and a 30 min. piece at pace 24 means 720 repeats, I feel it is worth the trouble to invest in prevention. Unlearning moves you’ve gotten used to is annoying, difficult and tedious.

Why not try this for fun: stick a piece of painters tape vertically over your knee and shin. Do this while while in the catch position and with a mirror beside you to check your posture. Then row. When you feel tightness and pulling of hairs, you’re there. Sooner than you’d expect, in my case anyway.
Meanwhile your torso should already have closed the gap with your legs for compensation.
Rowing next to the mirror for some time could pay off. It certainly did for me.
Give it a go!

[Ante]

I saw this video recently: https://youtu.be/YTKi8i42kAI which tries to debunk the "shins vertical" approach, but I'm not yet convinced.

Watched the video, but I can’t understand how this doctor is so concerned about the rower’s lower back, but not his knees. Apparently…
Story doesn’t convince me either.
(Odd rowing machine, btw, with the monitor in such an unhappy low spot.)

[JaapvanE]

Watched the video, but I can’t understand how this doctor is so concerned about the rower’s lower back, but not his knees. Apparently…

Same feeling here. Overcompressing at the catch led to sore knees in my case, so I am careful with my knees. I even dropped a question in response weeks ago, still haven't seen a decent answer.

Story doesn’t convince me either.
(Odd rowing machine, btw, with the monitor in such an unhappy low spot.)

It is a BioRower, which is designed to mimic real OTW rowing. From a mechanical perspective I'm deeply impressed as everything is neasured directly. I can see it having a place in specific technique improvement on national teams etc. But the machine looks huge and it is pretty expensive: no gym, club or private person would buy it due to space and budget limitations IMHO.