Maximum heart rate changes

[Spinal]

Highest last year was at the end of a half marathon road race where it hit 196hr.... to my surprise I had the same number a few weeks ago on the treadmill while doing a max heart rate test. I think I could have squeezed a little extra but I didn't want to come flying off the back of the machine

[dabatey]

I just want to say that I followed dabatey's method to get a Max HR a few weeks ago and got a number that was significantly higher (7bpm) than the max rate observed in any of my rows, ever. And since then I haven't gotten anywhere close to it again.
(My personnal conclusion is that in order to get a true Max HR, a certain methodology needs to be followed).

Even in training I have occasionally seen 99% of my HRMax, but never in intervals, always in hard middle distances with a sustained push at the end and ending with an all out sprint. That said some days even that doesn't do it, so I wonder whether even a committed ramp test might under report if done on the wrong day!

I agree. I think that if you are feeling great and really go for it you are likely to be a couple bpm higher than feeling okayish and just go for it as best you can if you get my drift. But the former is closer to a true max than the latter.

The other thing I'd say is that if at first you don't have specific muscular endurance (ie untrained at a particular sport) your max will go 'UP' a little as you get stronger.

[Musti]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

[Dangerscouse]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

Thanks for this, as it has been something that has slightly puzzled me, but not enough to make me investigate it.

For me, 8-10bpm is right as I seem to commonly max out at 95% with a MHR of 176

[dabatey]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

I agree with you on lower HR efforts as in a 150 effort untrained feels like 140 trained. However, I have seen the opposite for max HR so I wonder if you are seeing the result of slightly sub max efforts when you see max come down by 10bpm (maybe as a result of sprints being at the end of a run when already pretty spent).

[aegis]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

Thanks for sharing your observations. The past year was probably the most consistent for me in terms of training and I hit close to 2000km. As I mentioned earlier, i found it baffling that I wasn't seeing my previously observed MHR even though i felt I was giving pretty much all out efforts in my interval trainings.

The two main questions I had for myself was whether I was pushing myself hard enough and secondly if i should recalibrate my hr zones. Nonetheless, perhaps I shouldn't obsess over the numbers as long as I continue to show progress.

[Musti]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

Thanks for this, as it has been something that has slightly puzzled me, but not enough to make me investigate it.

For me, 8-10bpm is right as I seem to commonly max out at 95% with a MHR of 176

I was quite puzzled first time I noticed this after taking a break from pretty intensive training. In my first few runs after the break I wanted to hit MP so was expecting my HR to be high 150s, but to reach that effort level my HR ended up in low 170s. I was really surprised as my lactate threshold used to be in low 170s, and decided to push up to see when I would get past LT (in feeling) and then pushed further and further and ended up with a max of 201! I was shocked because my HRMax was around 190 (hit 190 at the end of full out 5k race). Since then I got used to this and it became part of my training

[Musti]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

I agree with you on lower HR efforts as in a 150 effort untrained feels like 140 trained. However, I have seen the opposite for max HR so I wonder if you are seeing the result of slightly sub max efforts when you see max come down by 10bpm (maybe as a result of sprints being at the end of a run when already pretty spent).

Hmm, not sure how this would happen, having 150 feeling like 140 when untrained but also HRMax being lower untrained. That would mean the upper range would be squeezed somehow. So you feel 140 [low effort] when you're at 150, but you feel 190 [max effort] when you are 180. It's interesting this is what you observe, but each one of us is an experiment of one.

[Musti]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

Thanks for sharing your observations. The past year was probably the most consistent for me in terms of training and I hit close to 2000km. As I mentioned earlier, i found it baffling that I wasn't seeing my previously observed MHR even though i felt I was giving pretty much all out efforts in my interval trainings.

The two main questions I had for myself was whether I was pushing myself hard enough and secondly if i should recalibrate my hr zones. Nonetheless, perhaps I shouldn't obsess over the numbers as long as I continue to show progress.

This is exactly what I experienced over and over.

I'm certain I was pushing myself hard enough; in fact I was annoyed I can't hit my Max HR. I really think this is something physiological rather than psychological.

Yes, I think we often obsess too much about numbers, spat out of our complex gadgets, but often forget that no instrument can replace the most accurate feedback received from our own bodies once we learn to listen and be in-tune.

[dabatey]

I have observed this many times in my training cycles. I used to run a lot and had a number of longer on and off periods. Most of the time I wear a HR monitor and here is my personal observation. There is around 10-12 bpm difference between my high-level trained/fit state and when I start training after a long break. And this doesn't only apply to HRmax but the whole HR spectrum. I am quite in-tune with my body as I used to run a lot (up to 90miles per week (around 150k) at one point), and always paid attention to my body and effort level. This really isn't about not being able push my body or misjudging my perceived effort as I can tell my HR within +/-2 beats without looking at my watch. I know for a fact that what 150bpm feels like when I'm untrained is what 138-140 feels like when I'm trained.

I believe this is not uncommon though perhaps the difference is smaller for most people, and in addition, most people don't pay that close attention to their HR and perceived effort.

I bookmarked a post from a running forum explaining the reason, though not sure if it's accurate:
"The answer is really quite simple. There are two heart rate maximum figures. One when you are dehydrated, and one when you are fully hydrated. As a previous poster correctly stated, this lower figure comes about when you are better endurance trained, because your body stores more water. More water in your blood plasma = lower max heart rate. The difference from a poorly trained endurance state to a well trained endurance state is about 8-10 beats per minute."

Also, I was really curious about this some years ago and after some research found these articles, for the scientifically-inclined:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688280/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17960504/
https://joefrieltraining.com/max-heart- ... d-fitness/

I agree with you on lower HR efforts as in a 150 effort untrained feels like 140 trained. However, I have seen the opposite for max HR so I wonder if you are seeing the result of slightly sub max efforts when you see max come down by 10bpm (maybe as a result of sprints being at the end of a run when already pretty spent).

Hmm, not sure how this would happen, having 150 feeling like 140 when untrained but also HRMax being lower untrained. That would mean the upper range would be squeezed somehow. So you feel 140 [low effort] when you're at 150, but you feel 190 [max effort] when you are 180. It's interesting this is what you observe, but each one of us is an experiment of one.

What i'm saying is that untrained muscle fatigue occurs early and pushing as hard as you can can result in a max of say 180. However when trained, and stronger the ability to reach the true max of say 190 is there.

I experienced this last year on switching from rowing to cycling. My rowing max was 182, but on hill climbs (all out near the top attempting PR's) my HR would top out mid 170's. This achieved maximum rose over months of cycling and now my cycling max is higher than my rowing max at around 184. Now I believe my max was always 184, but that muscle fatigue meant that by the time I was reaching the top of the hill (untrained) muscle fatigue was affecting my ability to push to that max.

[Musti]

What i'm saying is that untrained muscle fatigue occurs early and pushing as hard as you can can result in a max of say 180. However when trained, and stronger the ability to reach the true max of say 190 is there.

I experienced this last year on switching from rowing to cycling. My rowing max was 182, but on hill climbs (all out near the top attempting PR's) my HR would top out mid 170's. This achieved maximum rose over months of cycling and now my cycling max is higher than my rowing max at around 184. Now I believe my max was always 184, but that muscle fatigue meant that by the time I was reaching the top of the hill (untrained) muscle fatigue was affecting my ability to push to that max.

Ah, I see what you mean, that makes sense. So what happens in that case is your peripheral baseline (local, meaning specific muscles) is much lower than your central baseline (basically cardiovascular system) that it becomes the limiting factor in reaching your "true" HR.

This would happen when you switch from one sport to another. Basically your fitness is there but your muscles aren't adapted to the new sport yet, so they lag behind and prevent you from being able to reach your max HR.

On the other hand, if you take a break from a sport and then come back to it, both your cardio and muscles are set back and they start on equal footing (roughly speaking, as this depends on length of break since peripheral system is quicker to train and de-train than central system).

[GlennUk]

FWIW i recall seeing posts that indicated that your max HR doe snot change materially with exercise.

What i see is that the ability to get your HR to max value, reduces, in other words you probably have to work harder for longer to achieve a true max.


My max value is 183bpm seen in the final 20seconds or so of a CTC 'event' (3mile r3:00; 2mile r2:00, 1mile) a while back.

That was at the start of the best part of two years following the Eddie Fletcher FM/100k training plan when most of the sessions were not geared to HRmax 'events'.

Im now following the PP, and so far have not seen my HR peak at anywhere near the 183bpm despite pushing myself pretty hard especially on the speed sessions.

Be interesting to see whether I do see such values over the next couple of months.