Cold Water

[[old] Hal Morgan]

<!--QuoteBegin-Byron Drachman+Dec 19 2005, 05:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ Dec 19 2005, 05:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would suggest that your new project ought to be creating a mechanism that would mount an erg on slides on staves. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Porkchop,<br /><br />Great minds think alike...<br /><br />I've already been scrounging around the garage looking for materials to do that. It was a nice suggestion of LJ. As I mentioned before, I've been experimenting with some long sticks attached to the handle in order to ensure doing the "over and under the tabletop" with the oar handles.<br /><br />I just ordered a thermometer so I can get the temperature of the water and follow the guidelines more accurately.<br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I have been thinking about a thermometer. To bad you can't have one in the lake at all times and monitor it form the PC at the house. Any tech tweakers want to tell us how?<br />

[[old] rspenger]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hal Morgan+Dec 19 2005, 10:17 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Hal Morgan @ Dec 19 2005, 10:17 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have been thinking about a thermometer. To bad you can't have one in the lake at all times and monitor it form the PC at the house.  Any tech tweakers want to tell us how? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If the lake isn't too far away there is such a device already available at many stores (Ace Hardware and K-Mart to name a couple of chains). It doesn't require a PC. It is just an outdoor sensor with a transmitter and an indoor receiver to pick up the signal. Less than $40 if I remember correctly. Probably a very limited range - I never did check on that.<br /><br />Bob S.<br />

[[old] Byron Drachman]

I just ordered a thermometer that you can carry in a pocket. I can check the water temperature at the dock, and decide if I will wear a PFD type I, (FISA says to if the water temperature is 50 degrees F. or below, although they define 68 degrees F. or below as cold), or take other measures, or just skip rowing on the water. The article by Jane Blockley states that water temperatures below 80 degrees F. adversely affect chance of survival and that cold shock can happen at water temperatures of 77 degrees F. or below.<br /><br />Most people in this thread agree that rowing on cold water is dangerous, so this is flogging a dead horse, but I want to add that the references point out how counter-intuitive cold water survival is. For example, "common sense" tells us that you would be better off if you were warmed up and working hard when you first hit the cold water. However, in that case your blood vessels near the surface are dialated, and you will loose heat more even quickly. "Common sense" would say that being a skilled swimmer in warm water should help your chances of survival. Apparently not.<br /><br />One more thought: If you pull someone from the cold water and that person appears dead, say with a blue color and no signs of breathing or pulse, the person might have adapted the "mammalian diving reflex" and could possibly be revived by CPR, so go ahead and apply CPR. <br /><br />Here is a quote from the book The Art of Sculling by Joe Paduda:<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For scullers common sense is often overmatched by strong obsessive/compulsive tendencies. These tendencies result in scullers doing things they really know they shouldn't do... </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Byron

[[old] Rowingrunner]

water takes the heat out 50 times faster than air, if you get cold in 32 degree weather and have trouble moving within 15 minutes or so uninsulated, that gives you less than a minute to gain your bearings and swim in, it's a risk

[[old] ljwagner]

All the good pastes I've read made me want to have some legitimate information, not just my personal recollections.<br /><br />I'd thought about the staves, years ago myself, and bought a scull instead. No time to scull anymore, so now I'm strictly indoor. <br /><br />Don't be too paranoid. How many known sculling deaths due to drowning or hypothermia have there been ? Very few, I hope, if any. But winter sculling ought to be left to confident scullers. Heavyweights will have a much longer survival time due to their bigger mass that will cool slower. Being thin is being like a cooling fin on an engine or computer. We just give off heat like we don't need it. In cold water, a definite liability. <br /><br />My comments about hitting the water are personal experience. Once from a Jacuzzi, twice from a flip, once a cold plunge. <br /><br />Working hard, your skin is warm, but so are your muscles, especially the lats and glutes which are what powers you swimming. The three times I went in hot, I did ok. On the icy plunge, tired, and no longer warmed up, it was incredibly difficult to climb a 3 step ladder to get out of the pool. I literally could barely move. That 15 foot glide through 32 or so degree water (head under !) was a really bad idea. <br /><br />If nothing else, if you can breathe, you sure ought to be having an adrenaline rush/panic attack to get the h*** out of the water and back in the boat as quick as you can. . <br /><br />For the folks in the cox'd boats, keep an eye on your cox'n when you throw them in, if that is still done.

[[old] Byron Drachman]

I mentioned in a different thread that I made a seat that can be set to be unstable via a wooden dowel instead of having the entire erg unstable. It works great, and after I made it Alissa pointed out that you can buy such a seat at coreperform.com<br /><br />A friend got the seat from coreperform and she says it is awesome. Thanks again to Alissa for finding that website.<br /><br />We had a January thaw so the river is not frozen (Michigan.) The water temperature is about 34 degrees. I have changed my opinion completely about cold water sculling. Just dress like a kayaker in Canada or Alaska. I have a wetsuit that I got new on EBAY for $24 ($15 for the suit and $9 shipping.) It is very comfortable and it stretches enough that I forget I'm wearing it. I also got a new drytop on EBAY and a new drypant from nrsweb.com. A dry suit has latex gaskets at the neck, which you carefully trim to size so it is snug but not squeezing at the neck, and gaskets at the wrists and ankles. It is waterproof but lets vapor through. A two piece has gaskets at the waist. In either case of wetsuit or drysuit I also wear a PFD. The wetsuit or dry suit turns a cold day into a warm summer day. The problem is getting too warm, but I just do a nice paddle up and down the river. If I want to work hard, there is always the C2. I'm not about to start pulling hard and risk taking a bad stroke and flipping, even though I've never flipped up to now while sculling. <br /><br />There are some kayakers who say to use a wetsuit and others who say you should only use a drysuit. <br /><br />Reminder: FISA says to use a PFD if the water temperature is 50 degrees (F) or less, and that cold water is defined as 68 degrees or less. <br /><br />Byron<br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

If ya gotta be on the water, at least you're a lot safer with a PFD and a drysuit.<br /><br />The two times I went in the water in winter, I believe I was out of the water in under three minutes. One was a full flip with the scull capsized. The 2nd, and others had related this to me, I managed to go over the side without flipping. That saved the time to right the boat, and I was out of the water probably in less than half the time. But I had heard the process described probably 2 dozen times, by 4-5 guys asked over and over how they got back in the boat, by different people who missed the story a previous telling. <br /><br />When somebody tells a story of how to save yourself in a dangerous situation, or they could have died, you listen well. You get in the same situation, if you're lucky its automatic, and you graciously give credit to those who told you how.<br /><br />Probably beginning scullers are the main ones to keep out of the cold water, but they are less compulsive.<br /><br />Also, if you are going in, keep your head out of the water. Then that initial huge gasp is of air, not water, rushing into your lungs. That one reaction alone may be what saves your life.<br />

[[old] mat g]

The first rule in my sport: always an hand in contact with the boat!!! I regulary fall (haft body or legs) on freezing water without bad consequences. My friend Michel (first in front) fell in the water last week-end on an involuntary move. Head underwater, just one hand outside the water for about 6 sec. Trust me, he gasped for air. We immediately changed his clothes for dry ones. We laughted a lot. It's easy to return in the canoe because this model is a stable 4' large ice canoe and 4 friends can help you. <br /><br />Thank's for all the information on freezing water.<br /><br /><img src='http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/307/ ... sl33xu.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[[old] H_2O]

matq,<br /><br />You are definitely the cold water expert, there is no doubt about it.

[[old] Byron Drachman]

Hi Matq,<br />Those are great photos. Thanks for posting them. That's awesome. I feel like such a wimp. I only go sculling when there is little or no ice on the river. <br />Byron

[[old] seat5]

<!--QuoteBegin-Exrook+Nov 18 2005, 06:25 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Exrook @ Nov 18 2005, 06:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Nov 17 2005, 10:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Nov 17 2005, 10:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last Summer, I read  <a href='http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/015603 ... 5&v=glance' target='_blank'>Swimming to Antartica</a> by Lynn Cox, which I found fascinating. She has swum in extremely cold water for long distances. One thing I have learned is that you definitely do not want to stay still in cold water, swimming will generate heat and will increase your survival chance. The body adapts to cold water provided you train for it. Body fat makes a huge difference: for insulation and flotation.<br /><br />Once you survive the initial shock of being submerged in frigid water (you are going to be paralysed and unable to breathe for a few seconds and you might panic), swimming 50 meters, if you are a descent swimmer, should be a piece of cake! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Lynne Cox had some uniques physical attributes that allowed her to accomplish her amazing feats. For the rest of us, it is better to follow the advice of the USSARTF in the link provided above. Key info from the site includes:<br /><br />"Immersion in cold water can quickly numb the extremities to the point of uselessness. Cold hands cannot fasten the straps of a lifejacket, grasp a thrown rescue line, or hold onto an over-turned boat. Within minutes, severe pain clouds rational thought. And, finally, hypothermia (exposure) sets in, and without rescue and proper first aid treatment, unconsciousness and death "<br /><br />"Cold water robs the body's heat 32 times faster than cold air. If you should fall into the water, all efforts should be given to getting out of the water by the fastest means possible."<br /><br />"Physical exercise such as swimming causes the body to lose heat at a much faster rate than remaining still in the water. Blood is pumped to the extremities and quickly cooled. Few people can swim a mile in fifty degree water."<br /><br />I was a Naval Flight Officer for 9 years and went through extensive water survival training. Personally, I'd stay off the water during the cold weather unless I had a very good reason to be there. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Lyn has also suffered some possibly permanent damage from doing these cold water swims. She mentions is either somewhere in the book or in the afterword or preface or something, I can't remember where I saw it.It was a very inspiring book, but I don't think most of us want to have the extra fat on that is part of the reason she could do it. In any case, even someone with special ability in this area is running a risk.<br />

[[old] Ducatista]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lyn has also suffered some possibly permanent damage from doing these cold water swims. </td></tr></table><br />I think her sense of humor may've been one of the casualties. I own the book and thoroughly enjoyed it, but she struck me as a particularly literal and humorless writer. Too bad, with such rich material. Maybe it's as much the fault of her editor as it is a reflection of her personality. I heard her interviewed on public radio several years ago, and she came across as much warmer (heh) on the air than she did in the book.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+Feb 3 2006, 12:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Feb 3 2006, 12:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lyn has also suffered some possibly permanent damage from doing these cold water swims. She mentions is either somewhere in the book or in the afterword or preface or something, I can't remember where I saw it.It was  a very inspiring book, but I don't  think most of us want to have the extra fat on that is part of the reason she could do it.  In any case,  even someone with special ability in this area is running a risk. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I think you are right Carla. I don't remember the details but it was minor and happened on the swim in Antarctica where the water was around 32 degrees (salty water does not freeze at 32). <br /><br />I read that book last summer when the temperature was above 90 and her descriptions were making me shiver and having goose bumps! <br /><br />The closest she came to dying was not in cold water but in Egypt when she swam in the Nile. You need a strong stomach to go through that section of the book!<br /><br />There is a short biography of Lynne Cox <a href='http://www.ishof.org/00lcox.html' target='_blank'>here</a>.<br /><br />Francois

[[old] kinley]

Hal. You need to get a different boat. What do you think you gain from that rigging that prevents you from re-entering your shell? A few seconds here or there? Is it worth the hand-wringing and angst? Not to mention lost rows when you don't dare venture out? <br /><br />Let me wag my finger a moment, and say that it is irresponsible to be out in a boat you cannot recover yourself. Eventually you will need to rescued, or drown, and the result will be increased regulation and scrutiny of everyone else. I sure don't want the government telling me I need a life jacket in my boat, or worse, to WEAR a life jacket!<br /><br />Have you considered something with a wing rigger? I row a Maas 24. Not a racing shell, but it doesn't have a wash box, so it's exceptionally easy to slither back into. You don't even need to get the oars arganized first.<br /><br />And everyone. Remember that it doesn't have to be winter, and you don't have to be immersed, to suffer from impaired functioning and reflexes. Mere wind, and wind-blown water, can be dangerous in themselves.<br /><br /> >>>>-------> Kinley<br />

[[old] Hal Morgan]

I will keep my aylings and hudson. I will c2 erg in the winter. Screw the freezing cold water. aaaarrrrrggggghhhh those pictures make my bones ache. Does that french web page have an english version. Do you know of more links to this sport? how would I google it?