Maximum heart rate changes

[aegis]

Not the usual finding max heart rate post but rather how has your max heart rate changed with training.

In the past year my max observed HR was 204 in Oct 22, then dropped to 201 and 200 in Jan and Feb 23 respectively. In the last three months I am seeing 197-196-195. There isn't that much literature about max heart rate but I did read some articles that increased stroke volume with training could lead to the maximum heart rate decreasing. I use the karnoven formula to set the zones and think that using 204 may be too high now given that I've not seen that in quite a while.

I can also confirm that I am pushing myself pretty darn hard in the interval sessions so its not a question of effort. I would like to see what other folks have experienced with their maximum observed heart rates.

[p_b82]

My thinking on this is that your body is adapting to the requirements, and so it is not pushing your heart as hard - so it doesn't need to beat as frequently anymore. I'm pretty sure our hearts don't operate as efficiently at absolute max as a small % below that value anyway.

So I don't think training itself can impact the actual max HR of a person - we just don't need to go there as we get fitter.

In my case a 6K TT in November saw my observed max of 189, I matched those split times in a 9k row yesterday at a lower SPM, and my observed HR was lower at every stage. I'm sure had I rowed the 9k at the same pace/spm as I did the 6k, my HR would also have been lower; as I'm sure if I only did 6k at that pace/rate it'd be lower today than it was 7 months ago.

[aegis]

Indeed at the same pace with training it's expected that the heart rate may not be as high.

However, what I'm referring to even when I'm pushing at a >9.5 rpe I'm not seeing the max heart rates I saw a while back.

[p_b82]

But I don't think RPE in this instance can be used to define what your max is.

You may think you're pushing yourself as hard via perceived effort, but your not doing a direct comparison, as your body has a higher capacity than you think it does.

A max HR is the max it can go, and the only way to know that is to do a max test - and over the course of 12 months, it'd lower a fraction due to age.

[aegis]

I could do a ramp test but the point is I am going all out during the interval sessions, previously every time I do a 4*2k or 5*1.5k I will be very close or hit my max HR but recently I don't anymore which I find strange. It certainly isn't lack of effort and max HR declines with age doesn't happen over a year.

[Sakly]

I think it is related to a shift of what is limiting your performance. At the start you are typically limited by your cv system, at least for the longer stuff (single distance or multiple intervals, doesn't matter). You see your HR sky high as your cv system tries to deal with it.
When cv system improves and your splits get better, the strength factor comes into play very fast, as it is not a linear equation. If your strength limits your performance, then HR will not raise to your max, as your muscles are not able to create the demands on the cv system.

[iain]

I have observed that I get close to Maximum HR when I restart training after a break, but that the same RPE yields a lower maximum. I put this down to the speed at which the HR increases under intense exercise. Initially the increase is rapid presumably because stroke volume does not initially increase as rapidly. As my fitness increases my HR rises more gradually and so it takes longer to reach close to maximum. I suspect that in a high state of fitness my cardiac muscle may be fatigued before it reaches >95% of maximum and that this may prevent the CNS from allowing HR to gain the final 3% or so and therefore reducing the observed maximum. The other issue is the central limiter. As we get closer to our limits, this acts to limit additional increases in HR to protect us. The fitter we are, the closer we need to push to our limits to achieve high HR and so the more likely we are to have the limiter stop us achieving the true maximum. Further, I think that when we restart it may be easier to push harder as we still perceive the pace to be "slow" and underestimate the degradation of our CV fitness.

Apologies for the deviation from the question, but I recently read that in untrained individuals the anaerobic threshold is typically around 75% of HRmax. This would explain why for so many people trying to get fit struggle to hold their HR in the calculated bands and why many struggle to row for 30 min even at relatively low HR.

Sakly, interesting suggestion. I imagine that this could well be the case for some people. But I would hope that most people would learn to increase their rating where they have CV capacity but are strength limited, although maybe some people have so low a proportion of anaerobic fibres that they can't fully load their CV system for long enough for the oxygen debt to demand maximal load.

[Dangerscouse]

I very rarely see my HR get over 95%, and, I think at least, that I can't give any more. I think my issue is oxygen utilisation, as I can deliver enough, but I don't use enough of it properly.

I also agree with Iain's comments about CNS and central limiter. That's something that I have observed, and I think it's because you become aware of what to expect so you subconsciously hold something back. It is only training after all, so giving a true 100% will be very tough unless you really need to.

[dabatey]

Unless you are putting in a finishing sprint you are unlikely to see max HR in my opinion. So with intervals due to there always being a bit of pacing involved you could likely only get to max on the last interval, and even then only during an 'all-out' finish.

Probably better with a 2K TT or ramp test.

[aegis]

Thanks all for your insights. I got curious about this just based on my own data and also to challenge the notion that max heart rate doesn't change with training. I subscribe to the polarized training school of thought and do mostly easy rows with 1 or 2 hard ones per week.

I do make it a point to go really hard on the hard ones that's why I find that it's weird I don't see the max or near max heart rates I used to see in the same intervals now. If it's a sign that the stroke volume has increased due to the training and the heart doesn't need to pump as much. Faster sessions at lower heart rates shows that I should be doing something right.

[dabatey]

Just do a ramp test and as long as you all out at the end of the ramp your querying should be answered. (I would expect with a similar max to what you have seen in the past). You could do it on an 'easy' day and just pull a bit less Steady State than normal post ramp test as the actual ramp wouldn't really take that much out of you.

[jrkob]

I just want to say that I followed dabatey's method to get a Max HR a few weeks ago and got a number that was significantly higher (7bpm) than the max rate observed in any of my rows, ever. And since then I haven't gotten anywhere close to it again.
(My personnal conclusion is that in order to get a true Max HR, a certain methodology needs to be followed).

[iain]

I just want to say that I followed dabatey's method to get a Max HR a few weeks ago and got a number that was significantly higher (7bpm) than the max rate observed in any of my rows, ever. And since then I haven't gotten anywhere close to it again.
(My personnal conclusion is that in order to get a true Max HR, a certain methodology needs to be followed).

Even in training I have occasionally seen 99% of my HRMax, but never in intervals, always in hard middle distances with a sustained push at the end and ending with an all out sprint. That said some days even that doesn't do it, so I wonder whether even a committed ramp test might under report if done on the wrong day!

[jrkob]

always in hard middle distances with a sustained push at the end and ending with an all out sprint.

I think this describes quite well dabatey's method to get a MaxHR !

[Dangerscouse]

Even in training I have occasionally seen 99% of my HRMax, but never in intervals, always in hard middle distances with a sustained push at the end and ending with an all out sprint. That said some days even that doesn't do it, so I wonder whether even a committed ramp test might under report if done on the wrong day!

I've only seen my max HR at the end of my FM PB, and I'm sure my max could easily be under reported if I did a ramp test as I've HDed at circa 90% on occasions