Need advise on how to proceed

[Dom82]

Last week I had week 8 - session 1 of the BPP and, as I reported in the BPP thread, it was awful:

Today I did Week 8 session 1 - 8500m

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
43:24.1	8,500m	2:33.1	97	635	16	165
8:39.4	1,700m	2:32.7	98	637	15	157
8:38.5	1,700m	2:32.5	99	639	16	163
8:43.1	1,700m	2:33.8	96	630	16	167
8:43.4	1,700m	2:33.9	96	630	17	169
8:39.6	1,700m	2:32.8	98	637	17	173

As you can see, it felt awful. Today I wasn't in great mood, but can mood alone explain why the 7.1 session I quoted felt so different despite being similar distance, same pace, same SPM and having 1 rest day less?

One or two days after, I experienced a few symptoms from a virus I got from my younger daughter: I mostly had gastro-intestinal issues, but also felt extreme fatigue and blood pressure probably was lower that my already low usual values (I didn't test it though).
It was most likely Covid: for some reasons, my wife was tested a couple of days ago and the first test was positive, even though the second one wasn't. According to the doctor, that meant she probably got infected in the previous week.

On Sunday, two days after the symptoms were gone, I tried again the 8500 session, thinking the bad experience I had last week was because of the virus. Well, it was even worse: high heart rate and strong feeling of fatigue.
After the session, I tried to go full power for a minute and for my first time I saw a sub1:50 pace. Today, I went to the first gym session after the virus and it didn't feel different from previous weeks. So I don't know what the cause is (virus or something else), but my drop in performance seems to happen only with SS aerobic sessions.

Now, I'll probably give another shot at that 8500 session in the next few days but, if it continues to feel bad, I think I'll have to change plans and suspend the BPP. Another reason for that is that in the next 3 months I will have less time to work out (more work and then holidays breaks) and I think that, at the moment, I should prioritize the gym sessions (1 or 2 per week) to build a minimum muscle mass, something I really lack particularly in the upper body.

On the aerobic side, I would like to have at least 2 SS session (30-40 mins) per week at a reasonable HR (70/75% of HR reserve). If, for whatever reason, I can't do that at the 2:33 pace I was used to, I'll slow pace down. On top of that, I would like to add some sprints: something like 5 x 1min @ 20SPM, a kind of session that I really enjoy and that I think helps me improve technique. I know that common practice is to avoid mixing SS and fast intervals in the same session but, as I said, I will have fewer days per week available, so I don't have many alternatives.

What do you guys think? (sorry for the long post )

[iain]

Really sorry to hear of your experience. Several people have reported dramatic decreases post covid. There has been some research that has shown lung damage in some long covid sufferers, something similar could explain your results.

That said, I am no doctor. One thing I would say is that if you are struggling to this extent, I would think you may be doing more harm than good in continuing the session. This is the one time that I would recommend terminating a session before its end. You can pick up BPP easily enough after you are better. Perhaps repeat the previous week at 1S/week gap slower then proceed accelerating up to previous pace as you feel able.

I see no downside of doing an SS and short interval session in the same session. I frequently do 30 - 35min cooldown. That said, the SS is designed to maintain the long term adaptions without challenging your systems too hard. Progress will definitely slow if you are doing <3 sessions a week, and I would say that 2 such sessions in a day probably counts as a single session.

1min R20 seems a strange session to me. You need to be careful not to groove a stroke with an exaggerated leanback as this will enable a faster pace for such a session, but will reduce your ability to rate up and tire you excessively in longer sessions. I do 10-12 x 30" r1' R24 at high (for me) DF as a strength session, although warm up well. This allows full recovery and absolutely maximum work per stroke, while being brief enough that I don't fall into bad habits. Alternatively 12 x 20" r1' R30 allows this at a faster but controlled pace. Not at all sure on wisdom of anaerobic intervals when under the weather. The fact that your body can do it is not proof that it is good for you!

Hope you see improvement soon.

Iain

[Dom82]

Thanks Iain.
Just to be clearer: the 2 SS sessions would be on different days. I will try to get to 3 days a week when possible, but I'm afraid I won't find the time all the weeks.

[jamesg]

Hard to see how highly aerobic rowing and Covid can ever be a good combination: it was said to damage the lungs and reduce Oxygen uptake.

[Sakly]

If it really was covid, start slow and back down. Listen to your body. If it not feels right, you are not there to start again (but it turns out to be true for every illness).
There is a return to sport protocol, first 4 weeks is typically no sports, only walks without high load. If you never had covid and have no idea how your body reacts to it, it is even more difficult to estimate.

I would back down for the next two weeks and only have low intensity stuff, probably not on the rower as it is difficult to have such low intensities on the rower.
Then do an easy route to see how your body reacts. If you feel fully recovered you can test earlier, but it does not sound like this for me yet.

[winniewinser]

As hard as it is to stop when following a plan or dedicated to training, you have to consider the long term health implications. If it was COVID then these can be mild and go quickly or linger and fester for much longer and everyone is different. If it feels harder it probably was harder due to illness.

I am also doing the BPP and got to W4 and had a slight back issue......whilst I really wanted to stay on plan there was no point so you have to bit the bullet, take a step back and come back again slowly as Sascha says above. When I restarted I didn't do the interval sessions and just did the SS of W4 for an extra week or two before restarting when possible. But everyone is different.

If you are going away for a week and won't be able to train it's likely to take 2 weeks when you return to be back at the same fitness plane. I have the same issue in June when I am away for 2 weeks so returning will be tough......although I will be doing some exercise while away in Bali.

Good luck with it and enjoy the vacation!

[p_b82]

While I've not had covid knowingly, my sister has been diagnosed with long covid and really struggles with anything that stresses the CV system - walking her dog uphill can leave her needing to pause for breath multiple times - so just take it steady if things are not right on those sessions.

I know a couple of years ago when I (foolishly) decided to take myself up a couple of Welsh mountains when feeling a bit under-the-weather, which turned out to be a chest infection, I nearly collapsed only half way up.
I'd done the walk a few times a year for a couple of years at that point, so figured I could just crack on, and the exercise would clear-out the cobwebs as it were.

Since then I listen a bit more carefully to what the body tells me - cutting sessions short if I'm not feeling them, or skipping altogether.

IMO it's better to slow the rate of progress to keep the enjoyment in these circumstances, than it is to take the demoralisation hits from "failing" a session.

[Dom82]

Just a follow-up.
Things have improved in terms of aerobic performance. I also think I found a schedule that works for me and that I will follow for this summer.
I'm trying to stick to 3 rowing sessions a week, organized as follows:
- twice a week I start with a 5x1min - 1m rest @24-25SPM, trying to work on stroke quality and not lose confidence with high (for me) stroke rates. After a short break, I go for a 30min SS session.
- once a week I do a 2k test, after which again row SS for 30mins.

On top of that, I have 1/2 gym sessions per week (on different days from the ERG days).

As for SS sessions, I found that the sweet spot in terms of stroke quality and HR is at 2:36 pace (so 3s slower than what I was used to when following the BPP) @16 rate. After the initial 2-3minutes heart rate stabilizes at 146SPM (around 65% of my HR reserve) and I am able to keep the watt/SR ratio at 5.8. When I have the time, I'll try to extend the sessions to 40/45mins, as the HR doesn't seem to show any drift and the sessions feel reasonably comfortable.

As for the 5x1min, I row the first 4 intervals at around 1:57, but have to slow down he last one by around 1s. I'm seeing some improvement here, as I'm keeping w/SPM at 8.7 which is high for me (I got better stroke power only when I was doing the 1min intervals, but those were at 20SPM instead of 24/25).

Finally, I use 2k test as an indicator of my overall improvement (in terms of stroke quality and aerobic fitness). I row the first 1600m at the average pace of the previous 2k, and do my best to improve it in the last 400m. In terms of rating, the first splits are @21-22, with the last one at 25/26. So far I was able to improve pace from 2:11.5 (1st attempt) to 2:09.0 (2nd) to 2:07.9 (3rd, with a 7.5 W/SR). Obviously not all of that is real improvement, as the first try was paced too slow, but I hope I'm on the right track.

I would like to define a 2k target pace to keep myself motivated. It's quite difficult for me to define a realistic one, but I think that getting to 2:03 / 2:04 by the end of the summer would be a decent result, in particular considering I'll have several holiday breaks in the following months.
What do you guys think?

[iain]

I find 1min on/off sessions are all about partial recovery and so get progressively harder. Personally I think you would be better advised to start 1S slower on the first 4 and then see what you can manage at the end rather than getting used to slowing at the end (a habit you shouldn't get into). I would also say that you would be better increasing the length of these so that they become more aerobic as otherwise you could merely be training your ability to perform anaerobically (unless sprints are your key objective). As coordinating your breathing is a key requirement to increase the rating, learning to row with unsustainably low breathing (1 breath per stroke perhaps) will not help you on the longer distances. So 2min or 500 perhaps. As these will be slower, perhaps do 4 at say 2:03 pace. That way you will be practicing a stroke that you should be able to use for the 2k.

2k tests are tough. I fear that after the initial gains these will get very hard and gains decrease / you won't be able to maintain the target pace (that would require increased rating as the improvement is coming from the higher rating finishes). I would say you would be better doing a 2k paced interval session such as 5x750 r 3', only doing the test perhaps monthly. improvement will primarily be from learning to rate up, so you may be able to make even larger gains than you had hoped. Watch holidays 'though, as a rule of thumb, you will slow 1S/500m after each week off and this will take aprox. an equal length of time as the holiday to recover. You need to factor that into your pace or it will be frustrating when you restart.

Hope it goes well.

Iain

[Dangerscouse]

I totally agree with Iain on the one on one off pace, and the comment re distance.

You have to choose a pace that you can finish stronger than you started, otherwise that's just an ego dictated decision.

[Dom82]

Ok, so you are both suggesting I should replace 5x1m with something like 4x500m? Should I go with 1 or 2 minutes rest?
The last similar sessions I had (one month ago) were a 6x500 2' rest at 2:05 (21SPM) and a 7x500 2' rest at 2:07 (25SPM). So I would say that the 2:03 pace Iain suggests sounds reasonable, if with 2' rest. With 1' rest it would probably be too fast.

What about rating? Should I cap it at 24/25 as I'm currently doing to work on stroke quality or should I allow for higher rating (in particular in the last interval) to get used to it?
Thanks

[p_b82]

Looking at your training logs and the 2k you did and comparing it to mine, I think you've got a similar 2k in you to my pb as it stands.

Your stroke power is better than mine was when I set it - so just rating up to closer to 30 and you'd have it imo. My 2k pb was set average 2:03.5@29spm; so only 6.4Wmin - my pacing was awful but 1st (and only) attempt meant I was just winging it.

Maybe instead of doing both intervals at high power/low rate, do one at high rate, and work on increasing the power as you get more comfortable at the higher rates.

I think, like myself, an 8min 2k could also be an achievable target - may take you a little longer than the summer - but I reckon you could do it before season end; you've got the stroke power to do sub 8min at r20 as it stands (220w = 07:46.8, 2k), so it's just a CV/aerobic limitation at this point

I feel that your 30min SS session could probably be done a bit harder too - you're already doing hard sprints, so there's not as much benefit to doing a lower HR capped piece after them; I personally found that on 2-3 sessions bumping my HR to around 160-170 I saw larger improvements on the CV side - but obviously how you recover/respond is going to be different.
Or if time is not a factor, increase the duration at the lower effort you're currently doing as mentioned - the meterage increase will help also.

Good luck

[Dangerscouse]

Ok, so you are both suggesting I should replace 5x1m with something like 4x500m? Should I go with 1 or 2 minutes rest?
The last similar sessions I had (one month ago) were a 6x500 2' rest at 2:05 (21SPM) and a 7x500 2' rest at 2:07 (25SPM). So I would say that the 2:03 pace Iain suggests sounds reasonable, if with 2' rest. With 1' rest it would probably be too fast.

What about rating? Should I cap it at 24/25 as I'm currently doing to work on stroke quality or should I allow for higher rating (in particular in the last interval) to get used to it?
Thanks

Don't be afraid of increasing the rests to allow a quicker pace, as I've seen former Olympic rowers proposing up to nine minutes rest, but try 4 x 500m and see how it feels

I wouldn't cap the stroke rate on this session, as that can be done on other ones if you want to. I'm not a big fan of capping stroke rates unless it's for steady state

[Dom82]

Looking at your training logs and the 2k you did and comparing it to mine, I think you've got a similar 2k in you to my pb as it stands.

Your stroke power is better than mine was when I set it - so just rating up to closer to 30 and you'd have it imo. My 2k pb was set average 2:03.5@29spm; so only 6.4Wmin - my pacing was awful but 1st (and only) attempt meant I was just winging it.

Maybe instead of doing both intervals at high power/low rate, do one at high rate, and work on increasing the power as you get more comfortable at the higher rates.

I think, like myself, an 8min 2k could also be an achievable target - may take you a little longer than the summer - but I reckon you could do it before season end; you've got the stroke power to do sub 8min at r20 as it stands (220w = 07:46.8, 2k), so it's just a CV/aerobic limitation at this point

I feel that your 30min SS session could probably be done a bit harder too - you're already doing hard sprints, so there's not as much benefit to doing a lower HR capped piece after them; I personally found that on 2-3 sessions bumping my HR to around 160-170 I saw larger improvements on the CV side - but obviously how you recover/respond is going to be different.
Or if time is not a factor, increase the duration at the lower effort you're currently doing as mentioned - the meterage increase will help also.

Good luck

Thanks for your advice and encouragement, Peter
I'm not sure I could get to 2:03.5 right now, but I agree that achieving 8min 2k by the end of the season is doable.
I agree that right now my limit is mostly CV related, but after 40 years of full laziness it will take time to improve on that front. On the positive side, I think technique has improved quite a bit and the little bit of muscle mass I've built up from gym is helping me keep my posture more controlled while rowing.

[Dom82]

Don't be afraid of increasing the rests to allow a quicker pace, as I've seen former Olympic rowers proposing up to nine minutes rest, but try 4 x 500m and see how it feels

I wouldn't cap the stroke rate on this session, as that can be done on other ones if you want to. I'm not a big fan of capping stroke rates unless it's for steady state

I tried 4x500 with 2' rest and the results were better than I expected:

Code: Select all

Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
7:57.1	2,000m	1:59.2	206	1009	24	169
2:02.4	500m	2:02.4	191	956	23	158
2:02.1	500m	2:02.1	192	961	22	165
2:00.0	500m	2:00.0	203	997	24	172
1:52.6	500m	1:52.6	245	1143	29	183
r66m					

I would have never expected to be able to keep the same W/SPM from my 22-24 rate comfort zone to 29.