Incorporating weights into erging plans?

[mromero680]

We're about the same age so hope this helps. I usually lift MWF and row TTSS. Bench, legs, DL on weight days with accessory exercises each day. I don't find that I need days off with this format. My focus alternates between trying to lift heavier and trying to row faster and this keeps both fresh enough so I don't get burned out on either.

[GlennUk]

We're about the same age so hope this helps. I usually lift MWF and row TTSS. Bench, legs, DL on weight days with accessory exercises each day. I don't find that I need days off with this format. My focus alternates between trying to lift heavier and trying to row faster and this keeps both fresh enough so I don't get burned out on either.

That's interesting, I was taking the view that a weights day, being different from a cardio perspective could be considered a 'rest day'.

Something i wasn't sure about was the impact on cardio training, the PP for example suggests erging 6 days, resting one. The Eddie Fletcher FM/100k plan rows 3 days, rest, row 2 days, rest.

The point being that the training plans all seem to be predicated on rows on several consecutive days, as opposed to alternate days.

Can i ask what your training plan for rowing looks like?

Keith said earlier " If you want to go faster in the 2K and above then it's not doing that much to help but for sprints you need some power"

My own view is that weights may help you go faster in 2k but clearly you have to put in the aerobic work as well.

Surely to do a fast 2k you must also be fast at 500 and 1k. I think it was JamesG in another thread who said that 2k Watts was about 70% of 500m Watts For me it's,almost bang on. 500m W = 298, 2k W =212. So I'm thinking if I can improve my 500m power with weights this may feed through into the 2k as long as I'm still putting the aerobic training in. Does that sound reasonable?

I have the same view, i.e. that doing weights can only make you better, assuming the weights are specific for/complimenting rowing

[dabatey]

Have a google for incorporating weight training into cycling. That will probably throw up lots of relevant information as cycling is obviously a lot more common than rowing. One thing is for certain; weightlifting days are definitely not rest days.

[GlennUk]

Have a google for incorporating weight training into cycling. That will probably throw up lots of relevant information as cycling is obviously a lot more common than rowing. One thing is for certain; weightlifting days are definitely not rest days.

Thanks, for the suggestion re cycling ill do some searching on that front too.

And re rest, that's why i used inverted commas around 'rest day'.

[Sakly]

Have a google for incorporating weight training into cycling. That will probably throw up lots of relevant information as cycling is obviously a lot more common than rowing. One thing is for certain; weightlifting days are definitely not rest days.

Thanks, for the suggestion re cycling ill do some searching on that front too.

And re rest, that's why i used inverted commas around 'rest day'.

Don't get away with results found by this search. Rowing is another story than cycling. Cycling is done mainly by legs and applying force constantly by a high cadence. Rowing is a strength sport with very low cadence and very high peak forces involving very much the whole body and has a very different effect on the muscles of the body.
So the results and effects of combining with strength weight training are very different.

[GlennUk]

Don't get away with results found by this search. Rowing is another story than cycling. Cycling is done mainly by legs and applying force constantly by a high cadence. Rowing is a strength sport with very low cadence and very high peak forces involving very much the whole body and has a very different effect on the muscles of the body.
So the results and effects of combining with strength weight training are very different.

Point noted, however its more about the approach oi training with weights in combination with rowing that i am interested in rather than the specifics of the exercises so wont get into the detials.

[iain]

Can't add any insight as I don't do weights, but goes to the heart of what rest days are for. Some (eg EF) are clearly of the view that cardiac rest is required. I assume that as weights (if done in short sets with decent rests) are anaerobic, that these would not overly tax the heart. However, personally I find that the effect of rowing with insufficient rest is felt by reduced "strength" as seen in lower work per stroke. If the weights are working rowing muscles then I can't see how these could enable muscular recovery. Do people agree with this? If so, is the opinion that weights can replace rest days without compromising he training because the muscular effects can be rowed through, perhaps slowing the pace (and requiring true rest days before TTs) but not compromising the impact of the training (or at least less so than the benefits from those weight sessions)?

Re 500 / 2k comparisons, these have been shown to vary between rowers and some evidence that the impact of specific training, while benefitting both will help one more. "Paul's Law" was originally used as a tool to assess whether there was more benefit to be had from aerobic training (where the all out pace when doubling the distance between 1 & 10k decreased by >5S/500m) or strength (where <5S). However consensus on the Forum at the time seemed to be that these values were more applicable to 20s heavyweight rowers with older and lighter rowers having an optimal reduction somewhat lower. For completeness there was little input from ladies, so I cannot comment on their typical values. I believe the initial assumption was that this was for training for optimal 2ks.

[MartinSH4321]

Hi All

I have always followed a training plan for erging since i got my C2 some years ago, however i have never really incorporated any strength training alongside (until i attempted to improve my 100m PB Oct-Dec 2022).

As the training for the 100m was so bespoke I only lifted weights/practiced sprint starts for about 6-8 weeks. But more recently I followed the Eddie Fletcher FM plan, and now i have moved to the PP for a bit (my objectives have changed during this period).

In both plans they emphasize the importance of rest days, but not weights (as far as i can see). So i adapted the plans to fit in with my routine, and typically row for 2 days, lift weights, rest then 2 days etc.

The question is do others incorporate strength/weight training into their regimes, and if so any advice as to best way to approach such combinations?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Hi Glenn!
For me, the best way to do both strength and endurance training is the "concurrent/hybrid" approach, you can google for Alex Viada or search for Fergus Crawley on Youtube if you're interested, there's some good content. I've tried this approach for some time now and think my overall fitness is better than ever.
My typical training week consists of 2 full body strength trainings, 2 hard endurance trainings and as much "easy" (normally around 65-75% of max HR depending on duration and activity) endurance training as I can fit in and can recover from. Strength and hard endurance trainings are done on the same day (consolidation of stressors), strength always first.
Example:
MON:
"easy" endurance medley - 30' run. 30' row, 30' bikeerg (very short breaks between)
TUE:
Strength: BB Benchpress flat, DB 1-arm rows, Trap Bar deadlift, BB Shoulderpress, DB Pullovers (3 heavy sets each)
hard endurance: 3x10' row/3'R
WED:
"easy" racing bike 2x ca. 60' (to work and back home)
THU:
"easy" racing bike 2x ca. 60' (to work and back home)
FRI:
Strength: DB Benchpress incline, Pullups, BB Squat, lateral raises, Hyperextensions
hard endurance: 10x1'on/1'off bikeerg
SAT:
rest
SUN:
"easy" or "medium" long run ca. 75'

Doing most "easy" stuff on the bike helps me not to overstress my lower back

[Mike Caviston]

its more about the approach oi training with weights in combination with rowing that i am interested in rather than the specifics of the exercises so wont get into the detials.

My approach is to just do a couple exercises before and/or after each rowing workout (or other cardio activity such as running or cycling). My routine is simple. I cycle through a list of 20 movements (10 pairs of opposing movements for balance) two times per week, doing a single set for each exercise. I rarely dedicate specific blocks of time to strength training and just fit it in when I can; it saves a lot of time and makes workouts more efficient. I end up doing most of the lifting before the cardio because after a long row or run I’m mentally spent, though I do the occasional set of pull-ups or dips or a couple dumbbell exercises to round things off. Since I only do one set they are pretty intense but they don’t interfere with cardio, and I’ve done hard leg routines before 20K+ rows or 500m repeats without any ill effects (it’s just part of the warm-up). The only thing I avoid is shoulder work before a row – it makes it hard to hold my arms up extended and keeping the handle from dipping.

[mromero680]

If I'm not following a structured plan (Wolverine. Pete), etc...) I will usually do one hard 10s, one C2 interval session from "Custom List on monitor, one LSD, and whatever I feel like on Sunday.

[btlifter]

Hi Glenn!
For me, the best way to do both strength and endurance training is the "concurrent/hybrid" approach, you can google for Alex Viada or search for Fergus Crawley on Youtube if you're interested, there's some good content. I've tried this approach for some time now and think my overall fitness is better than ever.
My typical training week consists of 2 full body strength trainings, 2 hard endurance trainings and as much "easy" (normally around 65-75% of max HR depending on duration and activity) endurance training as I can fit in and can recover from. Strength and hard endurance trainings are done on the same day (consolidation of stressors), strength always first.
Example:
MON:
"easy" endurance medley - 30' run. 30' row, 30' bikeerg (very short breaks between)
TUE:
Strength: BB Benchpress flat, DB 1-arm rows, Trap Bar deadlift, BB Shoulderpress, DB Pullovers (3 heavy sets each)
hard endurance: 3x10' row/3'R
WED:
"easy" racing bike 2x ca. 60' (to work and back home)
THU:
"easy" racing bike 2x ca. 60' (to work and back home)
FRI:
Strength: DB Benchpress incline, Pullups, BB Squat, lateral raises, Hyperextensions
hard endurance: 10x1'on/1'off bikeerg
SAT:
rest
SUN:
"easy" or "medium" long run ca. 75'

Doing most "easy" stuff on the bike helps me not to overstress my lower back

On one hand... I'm inclined to say some version of "different strokes for different folks.

On the other hand.... this is the correct answer.

(not necessarily the specific routine, but the overarching approach)

[aussie nick]

Hi All

I have always followed a training plan for erging since i got my C2 some years ago, however i have never really incorporated any strength training alongside (until i attempted to improve my 100m PB Oct-Dec 2022).

As the training for the 100m was so bespoke I only lifted weights/practiced sprint starts for about 6-8 weeks. But more recently I followed the Eddie Fletcher FM plan, and now i have moved to the PP for a bit (my objectives have changed during this period).

In both plans they emphasize the importance of rest days, but not weights (as far as i can see). So i adapted the plans to fit in with my routine, and typically row for 2 days, lift weights, rest then 2 days etc.

The question is do others incorporate strength/weight training into their regimes, and if so any advice as to best way to approach such combinations?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Hi Glenn!
For me, the best way to do both strength and endurance training is the "concurrent/hybrid" approach, you can google for Alex Viada or search for Fergus Crawley on Youtube if you're interested, there's some good content. I've tried this approach for some time now and think my overall fitness is better than ever.
My typical training week consists of 2 full body strength trainings, 2 hard endurance trainings and as much "easy" (normally around 65-75% of max HR depending on duration and activity) endurance training as I can fit in and can recover from. Strength and hard endurance trainings are done on the same day (consolidation of stressors), strength always first.
Example:
MON:
"easy" endurance medley - 30' run. 30' row, 30' bikeerg (very short breaks between)
TUE:
Strength: BB Benchpress flat, DB 1-arm rows, Trap Bar deadlift, BB Shoulderpress, DB Pullovers (3 heavy sets each)
hard endurance: 3x10' row/3'R
WED:
"easy" racing bike 2x ca. 60' (to work and back home)
THU:
"easy" racing bike 2x ca. 60' (to work and back home)
FRI:
Strength: DB Benchpress incline, Pullups, BB Squat, lateral raises, Hyperextensions
hard endurance: 10x1'on/1'off bikeerg
SAT:
rest
SUN:
"easy" or "medium" long run ca. 75'

Doing most "easy" stuff on the bike helps me not to overstress my lower back

hey Martin...long time!

this is great info and detail, thank you and I think for an older athlete (talking about Glenn but also me!) this makes even more sense because it gives more time for recovery in between hard days. And of all the adjustments I've had to make over my training life as I've got older, the longer recovery time has probably been the most marked. Particularly this year when I had several months during the indoor rowing season of training very intensely, I found it very difficult to fit my lower body lifting in. My legs just weren't recovering and the benefits (and joy) of squat, deadlift, cleans was offset by compromised sessions on the following days.

I've been playing around with ways to fix this for the last few months but for now the adjustment has been 'row less', but I might trial your structure for a few training blocks.

one question...are you splitting your heavy days into morning and afternoon sessions or do you just start your hard endurance stuff immediately/soon after your lifting?

[MartinSH4321]

...
hey Martin...long time!

this is great info and detail, thank you and I think for an older athlete (talking about Glenn but also me!) this makes even more sense because it gives more time for recovery in between hard days. And of all the adjustments I've had to make over my training life as I've got older, the longer recovery time has probably been the most marked. Particularly this year when I had several months during the indoor rowing season of training very intensely, I found it very difficult to fit my lower body lifting in. My legs just weren't recovering and the benefits (and joy) of squat, deadlift, cleans was offset by compromised sessions on the following days.

I've been playing around with ways to fix this for the last few months but for now the adjustment has been 'row less', but I might trial your structure for a few training blocks.

one question...are you splitting your heavy days into morning and afternoon sessions or do you just start your hard endurance stuff immediately/soon after your lifting?

Hi Nick!
Yeah, it's been a while... how are you doing?
Recovery has often been an issue for me and this structure helped me a lot, so hopefully it helps you too!

Splitting depends a bit on work and family, sometimes I just don't have time for a break. When I do sprint intervals I often do them straight after weights, for medium intervals (1'+) and esp. long intervals (5'+) I try to have at least a 1h break, the longer the better

[GlennUk]

HI All

too many to thank individually, but can i thank everyone who has contributed, it is very much appreciated. I know we are all busy with our lives.

As others have said my problem is one of time, I don't usually have the time to exercise twice a day during the week, running my businesses/living a bit of family life/exercising, and sleeping!

The issues i have come across is one of precisely how much weight training to do and when. Many have said min three times a week, but if this was done as a 'weights day', then it would not fit in with a rowing programme that suggests 5/6 days erging a week.

It is reassuring to hear that several members run combined weights/erg days to differing degrees and this is encouraging to me as from their posts is seems possible to combine both exercises on specific days without detriment. Of course progression and recovery will determine precisely how much an individual athlete can undertake, so in that sense i am sure there will be some 'sucking it and seeing' on my part to see what i can cope with, and how it affects recovery.

Having read Martins post i decided to have a go yesterday on a weights/strength day with 4 exercises starting with Squats, U/right rowing, D/L, Bench which i would normally have done as a single sessions, followed by 10x1min r:1min (i did warm up on the ereg 1st before all this). Obviously 1sty day see how things progress, I thought my legs would give out and maybe if i had not done the weights the pace would have been faster, but in fact it was my lungs/heart, that were the limiting factor in what i would describe as a normal manner (i.e. in the same way as if hadn't lifted).

I will give this strategy a go for a few weeks and see how things work out for me on all fronts, performance and ability to continue to recover. Something i was musing with was whether to stick to the 4 basic exercises or whether to incorporate different exercises for other muscle groups. Looking at both Mike and Martins observations it appears that there is no harm in mixing things up so i am already thinking about other exercises i can do with the kit i have.

Thanks once again for everyone's input, off to the gym now for the 'easy' day!

[MartinSH4321]

HI All

too many to thank individually, but can i thank everyone who has contributed, it is very much appreciated. I know we are all busy with our lives.

As others have said my problem is one of time, I don't usually have the time to exercise twice a day during the week, running my businesses/living a bit of family life/exercising, and sleeping!

The issues i have come across is one of precisely how much weight training to do and when. Many have said min three times a week, but if this was done as a 'weights day', then it would not fit in with a rowing programme that suggests 5/6 days erging a week.

It is reassuring to hear that several members run combined weights/erg days to differing degrees and this is encouraging to me as from their posts is seems possible to combine both exercises on specific days without detriment. Of course progression and recovery will determine precisely how much an individual athlete can undertake, so in that sense i am sure there will be some 'sucking it and seeing' on my part to see what i can cope with, and how it affects recovery.

Having read Martins post i decided to have a go yesterday on a weights/strength day with 4 exercises starting with Squats, U/right rowing, D/L, Bench which i would normally have done as a single sessions, followed by 10x1min r:1min (i did warm up on the ereg 1st before all this). Obviously 1sty day see how things progress, I thought my legs would give out and maybe if i had not done the weights the pace would have been faster, but in fact it was my lungs/heart, that were the limiting factor in what i would describe as a normal manner (i.e. in the same way as if hadn't lifted).

I will give this strategy a go for a few weeks and see how things work out for me on all fronts, performance and ability to continue to recover. Something i was musing with was whether to stick to the 4 basic exercises or whether to incorporate different exercises for other muscle groups. Looking at both Mike and Martins observations it appears that there is no harm in mixing things up so i am already thinking about other exercises i can do with the kit i have.

Thanks once again for everyone's input, off to the gym now for the 'easy' day!

You're welcome, glad to hear we could help you

I also was sceptic to do weights and intervals on the same day, especially with no or only short break between, but it works surprisingly good (for me).

Good luck with your new training schedule!