How do I assess if I'm properly recovered and rested ?

[iain]

Agreed, true over training is rare. However failing to properly recover is not so rare with this as a result of pushing "recovery" sessions into the grey zone a common reason cited for many keen amateurs never fulfilling their potential. Total collapse doesn't happen and training can continue, it is just the pace in the hard sessions is not pushed hard enough to maintain improvements once basic fitness achieved.

[JaapvanE]

Agreed, true over training is rare. However failing to properly recover is not so rare with this as a result of pushing "recovery" sessions into the grey zone a common reason cited for many keen amateurs never fulfilling their potential.

The Ego gets in the way?

[nick rockliff]

Agreed, true over training is rare. However failing to properly recover is not so rare with this as a result of pushing "recovery" sessions into the grey zone a common reason cited for many keen amateurs never fulfilling their potential.

The Ego gets in the way?

I would say the opposite, many keen amateurs don't push hard enough when they should thus never fulfilling their potential.

Two terms that make me shake my head when I see them, heart rate drift and grey zone.

[jamesg]

When starting out, basic steady state sessions will provide plenty fitness increases.

Quite so. LSS is very effective at CV training, if the style uses full body. All that leg, hip, trunk and shoulder muscle has little trouble overloading our CV system, if all put to use.

So a sign of effective LSS when rowing is high HR, not low.

[jrkob]

When starting out, basic steady state sessions will provide plenty fitness increases.

Quite so. LSS is very effective at CV training, if the style uses full body. All that leg, hip, trunk and shoulder muscle has little trouble overloading our CV system, if all put to use.

So a sign of effective LSS when rowing is high HR, not low.

Thank you, this answers my question to you on Friday (bottom of the 1st page).

Your answer gives rise to another question though: how "high" would be "high" enough in my case ? If the info I provide in my addy below is not enough to answer, what other info should I provide ?

* edit: and for the SS to be "effective" (for CV training) as you say, in addition to your recommended HR for me, how long would it need to be ? an hour ? an hour and a half ?

* edit2: see below my 1h SS yesterday as an example. Does this qualify as "effective LSS" for CV training ?

[dabatey]

Looking at your paces I can't help but think you are not quite up to doing hour sessions just yet. Or maybe your stroke isn't right somehow.

What I mean is that because the rower is a mixture of strength and CV, maybe your strength endurance isn't great enough yet to complete hour long sessions and in order to do so you are pulling a weak stroke so as to be able to last an hour.

I was not too far off your age and weight when I started c2. I was 49 and 61/62kg or so. An hour was far too long for me on starting, however I did pull a pace (length/time dependent) much stronger than 3.00/500. That was slower than my warm up pace.

Maybe try strapless rowing to force yourself to push with the legs properly. Maybe limit your sessions to half an hour to see if you can start pulling a stronger pace.

[jrkob]

Thanks for the input. My earlier question wasn't about raw performance.
It was about what should a SS look like to be effective for CV training. Different objective.

Our weight difference is exactly 10%, if all goes into muscle, this will explain the difference in performance. It is true that I do not have a huge amount of muscle, and perhaps we can look into this separately. Here I'm looking at CV health in isolation. In my personal case, this is far more important than rowing performance (but if I can improve performance, of course that will be nice and the fact that I do the BPP suggests that I'm looking at this too actually !).

[p_b82]

I think dabatey is just making the point, that if you only focus on your heart rate, you have the potential to condition your body to just rowing slowly.

I know when I started that was something I did.
My gains to start with enabled me to row up to 100mins (slowly); I've been more conscious of my pace and paid less attention to my HR, and my TT's have all been significantly faster since - most of them with a lower max HR recorded - which suggests they've all got improvements I could make to them "now" & that my CV system is working more efficiently.

Think of it in a slightly different way.

The harder you push the more you are improving your CV system - even up to the point of going anaerobic. Whether that's by pace or by duration. and/or both.

The issue is that we can't maintain that high effort level all the time - so that's why there's slower sessions included in many plans to balance out the need for volume to keep incremental improvements occurring & it allows for pushing harder in the hard sessions.

[iain]

You can't assess a single SS training session in isolation. Just looking at james' post, 3' pace at 19SPM is 3.2WMin. This compares to the 5.5 you managed on your 26SPM 2:15. I appreciate that this was short and so may have used anaerobic strength that will only be available occasionally in SS rows, but that 42% reduction in work per stroke is far more than I would expect. To put it in context, I struggled at the end of my recent 50k due to muscle fatigue (and almost certainly technique degradation as I had very different muscle pain in the 2 sides of my body subsequently and the puddles of sweat showed I was not pulling straight). By the end my work per stroke dropped by 28% from the highest I have seen in the last 3 months for more than 12 stroke intervals (I do these at max force for strength). I rarely see a reduction >20% from the highest figure I based this on which is 9% higher than I normally see.

You might like to try maintaining a stronger stroke for these sessions. Maybe start doing say 2:45 pace intervals at 17 SPM or so with short rests. Not sure how far you could comfortably maintain that pace and rating, maybe 10' intervals with 2' rests to allow you to deal with any oxygen debt and get your HR down? As the increase is 30% higher power at a lower rate this will feel much harder. You will need to concentrate on an explosive drive and a really slow recovery. It does seem that you allow the drive to slow when rowing at a lower rating, while the drive should stay similar and only the recovery change. Just a suggestion.

- Iain

[jamesg]

It was about what should a SS look like to be effective for CV training.

LSS means Long (more than 2k or ten minutes), Slow rating (18-20), Steady (strokes that can be maintained for the duration as to Length and Force).

CV overload and hence training is certain in rowing using standard style, since this engages a lot of muscle and especially the legs.

[dabatey]

All I am really saying is that if the strength component is treated as seriously as the CV component of your rowing, then it will be easier to stress your CV system over longer periods with what James would refer to as a 'proper' rowing stroke.

There's definitely a sort of 'explosiveness' in pushing off with the legs required to row properly, and a flow through the rest of the stroke that depends on this initial push. That requires a certain amount of strength. Strength which you will already have, but will be quickly depleted at first and needs endurance to be built up.

I'd also add. Rowing requires a pretty large energy expenditure, and you've gotta eat calories to make up for that. Feeding yourself is part of recovery.

[jrkob]

All I am really saying is that if the strength component is treated as seriously as the CV component of your rowing, then it will be easier to stress your CV system over longer periods with what James would refer to as a 'proper' rowing stroke.

[...]

I'd also add. Rowing requires a pretty large energy expenditure, and you've gotta eat calories to make up for that. Feeding yourself is part of recovery.

Ha ! That was the bit I was missing. Thanks for the clarification.

Well noted on eating, I have asked for opinions in another thread about that actually and this bit seemed to be ok, as far as the quality of the food is concerned. For the quantity, I've never been a big eater but I definitely notice I'm hungrier when I exercise plenty, and I do eat more.

[jrkob]

You can't assess a single SS training session in isolation. Just looking at james' post, 3' pace at 19SPM is 3.2WMin. This compares to the 5.5 you managed on your 26SPM 2:15. I appreciate that this was short and so may have used anaerobic strength that will only be available occasionally in SS rows, but that 42% reduction in work per stroke is far more than I would expect.

[...]

Maybe start doing say 2:45 pace intervals at 17 SPM or so with short rests. Not sure how far you could comfortably maintain that pace and rating, maybe 10' intervals with 2' rests to allow you to deal with any oxygen debt and get your HR down?

Thanks Iain. The 26spm in 2:15 was a 3x500/2min rest, and this was the very best I could do. I don't think I would have been able to do an additional 500m.
However, the 1hour long SS 3' pace at 19spm, is not the best I could do. I could have probably rowed another hour I think. Or, rowed a little faster.

Ok, I will try 2:45 pace intervals, 17spm 10'/2min rest and see how long I can last. Will report.

[iain]

The 1hour long SS 3' pace at 19spm, is not the best I could do. I could have probably rowed another hour I think. Or, rowed a little faster.

Ok, I will try 2:45 pace intervals, 17spm 10'/2min rest and see how long I can last. Will report.

Look forward to the report. The key is breaking the link between the speed of the drive and the recovery. Comparing the 500's to the 1hr, the power nearly dropped at the cube of the stroke rate, i.e. yur drive was a simiar proportion of the stroke rather than being a similar length with the recovery slowing!

[jrkob]

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