How do I assess if I'm properly recovered and rested ?

[iain]

Interesting discussion. A lot of ergers have been frustrated by the Garmin prescriptions which always seem to call for lower training loads than moderate ergers have always done. Fitness experts stress that training is a balance where there are risks associated with performing the work required to obtain performance levels that athletes desire. I suspect Garmin is focussed on what is required for overall health while erg programs are focussed on optimising 2k times. The latter involves risks that would not be accepted for the former approach!

I notice that you are focussing on recovery of muscles and joints. I may be wrong, but I think Garmin focus on cardiac recovery with HRV being a measure of how fatigued the heart is. I for one get a much more responsive feedback on muscle recovery from seeing the work per stroke at a "normal" SS rating for me (such as 17) at a regular RPE. For me at present anything below 7WMin demonstrates significant muscular tiredness, while above 7.5 means I am fresh and on for SB performances. I'm not sure about joints, I would hope that these should not be impacted significantly by rowing with good technique.

[jrkob]

I notice that you are focussing on recovery of muscles and joints. I may be wrong, but I think Garmin focus on cardiac recovery with HRV being a measure of how fatigued the heart is.[...] I'm not sure about joints, I would hope that these should not be impacted significantly by rowing with good technique.

There are 2 aspects that I'm looking at: recovery of muscles and joints, and recovery of...not sure how to call that, overall body energy. I'm not focusing on one more than the other. I just would like both to be "good enough" to proceed to the next row. Garmin may give me an indication of overall energy level through HRV etc, but unfortunately will tell me nothing of muscle and joints fatigue.

The reason for me to look at joints is because last summer when I started rowing (and had no idea what I was doing), my right knee started "clicking". After trying to dig the issue, I came to the conclusion that my knees were probably not muscular enough for the effort I was demanding of them. So, I started doing exercises at home during day time to bring more muscles around my knees. Since then, no more clicking.
Also, last year my calves were regularly hurting to the point of having to stop rowing for a few days. I "think" I was overdoing it.
I am trying to keep this in mind to avoid having to stop for a few days.

I for one get a much more responsive feedback on muscle recovery from seeing the work per stroke at a "normal" SS rating for me (such as 17) at a regular RPE. For me at present anything below 7WMin demonstrates significant muscular tiredness, while above 7.5 means I am fresh and on for SB performances.

Could you clarify this ?

[nick rockliff]

There are some things that you just need to work out for yourself. You know your body and how it should feel.

Personally, I wouldn't rely on a watch to tell me anything but the time of day.

[iain]

I for one get a much more responsive feedback on muscle recovery from seeing the work per stroke at a "normal" SS rating for me (such as 17) at a regular RPE. For me at present anything below 7WMin demonstrates significant muscular tiredness, while above 7.5 means I am fresh and on for SB performances.

Could you clarify this ?

I settle into my normal SS rhythm, check that my form is normal and adjust recovery to a 17SPM rating if necessary. a pace of 2:23.3 is 119W, so work per stroke is 119/17 = 7WMin. While 2:20.6 pace is 126W which is 126/17 = 7.4WMin. So looking at the pace if it is >2:23 I know that my muscles are tired, if =<2:20 I know that they are in a good state. Probably effected a bit by mental state, but works pretty well for me, although the parameters do move over time. As I record rating and pace for all of the intervals I do, my spreadsheet calculates the work per stroke for each and so I can adjust as this varies over time. Unfortunately I find that I am not as good as Nick at accurately reading my bodies state and need the feedback from the monitor. Some days I will settle into 19SPM, other days 15SPM while rowing at 2:23 on a bad day feels similar to rowing at 2:20 on a great day both at 17SPM. From experience I know that on the 2:23 days I will find myself struggling earlier and rate dropping and need more willpower to even maintain that pace. On a hard day I do this during the start of my warm up and will modify the session if in a poorly recovered state. On a SS day I incorporate the warm up at the start of the continuous session and will reduce the length of the session and try to ensure that I don't let the rating drop (I will have a set pace and so this leads to more muscular fatigue). I should probably sometimes discontinue the session, but having got changed and being on the machine I only do this if I suspect an injury.

HTH Iain

[btlifter]

There are some things that you just need to work out for yourself. You know your body and how it should feel.

Personally, I wouldn't rely on a watch to tell me anything but the time of day.

I came here to say that ^^

Do objective measures od recovery exist? Yes. But are they more accurate than one's own subjective experience and ability to perform? Usually: no.

[JaapvanE]

Do objective measures od recovery exist? Yes. But are they more accurate than one's own subjective experience and ability to perform? Usually: no.

I like to think that the watch can detect things I can't yet, and that it could signal things I would miss.

HRV is quite a good indicator of some recovery issues (see
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/usin ... -training/ and
https://8weeksout.com/2022/02/25/the-be ... -recovery/) and it typically detects specific types stress before I do myself. It should be followed with some caution, but it frequently detected illness and overtraining before I did (the later I found out by ignoring the signals and paying the price for it...).

In daily life, especially getting older, pains are frequent and normally no cause for concern. That makes the weaker signals like fatigue easy to miss. The watch helps them expose them to me.

And tools like training load are helpful to understand things. I recently switched DF and went into overtraining in the matter of weeks. It wasn't a single training causing it, but the trend of the cumulative load clearly showed where it happened (trend change, effectively I blindly switched to a 5 times HR Zone 5 training per week, including a weekly half marathon). Some might see that in a training log, others like me rather see it recorded automatically.

[JaapvanE]

Ok I understand the logic, makes sense. In your experience, does the training load as given by your watch for a given exercise in the same ballpark as the one calculated by the PM5 roughly ? If the only meaningful data used is HR, I would think both should be very close.

AFAIK, the PM5 doesn't calculate training load.

Ok I understand. This is what I have:

Looks pretty similar to my current curve, but mine is deliberately going down as I was overtrained.

[JaapvanE]

If the only meaningful data used is HR, I would think both should be very close.

According to Garmins documentation, it is heartrate data only: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-tec ... ning-load/

In essence, it is excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC), which is a metric that is developped since the early '90. There is a lot of scientific research based on it, see the references of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_ ... onsumption

[dabatey]

My garmin cycle computer prescribes a ridiculous amount of rest after activity (Based on HR I don't have a power meter fitted). So the problem is not just limited to garmin watches.

With regards to having a bad nights sleep. I've always found that although a single poor night sleep might make you feel like not doing a hard interval workout, it has no effect whatsoever on the ability to complete that workout. I'd imagine multiple nights of poor sleep would be rather detrimental to the immune system though.

[Elizabeth]

I use my Garmin for heart rate, distance, and pace, but put very little stock in numbers around recovery or load.

My current load is showing as 665, and my last 7 days include: 62k on the water, 68k RowErg (one medium session, two hard interval sessions, remainder easy), 27k cycling, 2 strength sessions. The 27k cycle had an average HR of 127 and a training load of 0. It was deliberately easy, but 0 doesn't seem right.

Some of the observations noted here don't track with my own experience, which makes me doubt the load data even more. I think the last time Garmin recommended more than 12 hours recovery for me was about 6 months ago, but I was absolutely wiped after CRASH-Bs and needed more than 12 hours to recover.

If you've been training for a while, you get the sense of whether you're recovered. I can tell when my kids haven't gotten enough sleep and have a lot of the same signs if I'm not adequately recovering. I just (usually) hide it better.

[jrkob]

If you've been training for a while

Thank you for the input.
As should be apparent from my posts here, this is not the case.
I am not at a stage yet where "listen to your body", as a suggested by a few - experienced - rowers here, means enough to me. Yet. This will come in time I'm sure. But I'm not there yet. Hence the purpose of this thread.
I don't "have" to use my watch if there are better ways, in fact, my OP wasn't even mentioning the watch at all. I am open for suggestions.
But if "listening to my body" is a better way, what will be helpful is more details about what I'm supposed to listen for. And to be clear again, before starting a training session (not after, after the fact, is much easier).

@iain, thanks a lot for the explanation. I'm clear now.

[jrkob]

If the only meaningful data used is HR, I would think both should be very close.

According to Garmins documentation, it is heartrate data only: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-tec ... ning-load/

In essence, it is excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC), which is a metric that is developped since the early '90. There is a lot of scientific research based on it, see the references of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_ ... onsumption

Thanks a lot !

[Dangerscouse]

And to be clear again, before starting a training session (not after, after the fact, is much easier).

Knowing before you start is essentially educated guesswork. There's nothing that I know of that you can reliably use other than the last session was too difficult or how you feel when you get out of bed / during the day. It's a vague statement because it's a vague feeling.

If you tried to figure it out every time before you started, you'd never do enough hard work to make any progress as you'll all too often convince yourself that you need to back off. Just trust the process and look for a broader view rather than specifics.

[jrkob]

Ok. Got it. Thank you ! I think it was jamesg who suggested 2 days rest a week, I think I'll refine my plan to include this as a starting point and see how it goes as I progress further.
Appreciated the input, this is very helpful.

[Sakly]

And to be clear again, before starting a training session (not after, after the fact, is much easier).

Knowing before you start is essentially educated guesswork. There's nothing that I know of that you can reliably use other than the last session was too difficult or how you feel when you get out of bed / during the day. It's a vague statement because it's a vague feeling.

If you tried to figure it out every time before you started, you'd never do enough hard work to make any progress as you'll all too often convince yourself that you need to back off. Just trust the process and look for a broader view rather than specifics.

Exactly what I think.
This is why I nearly always start my planned training, even if not feeling for it (if it is not really worse and I know it makes no sense to go hard this day).
If I feel the load is too high to handle that day, then I back off or stop (very rarely).