"Zone 2 training" query

[jrkob]

Fellas I have a question regarding the above. I'd like to add this to my rowing weekly routine for the cardio benefits I want to maintain as I mentioned in another thread.
The problem is determining where is zone 2. I don't have a lactic acid meter obviously, and the other methods I dug from the web like xyz-age, talk test etc... don't seem very scientific to me.

In a YouTube video - which regrettably I didn't save... - I saw that zone 2 is the fastest HR at which I can row essentially at the same pace, forever, without such HR drifting faster over time.

Let me give an example this morning:

Split/500m s/m HR
3:00 18 130
3:00 18 130
3:00 18 130
3:00 18 130
3:00 18 132
3:00 18 133
3:00 18 134

I have massaged the numbers to make my point. My HR stays constant for the first few splits, then drifts faster.

Do you agree that I was probably rowing above zone 2 ? In which case, perhaps I can try again a little slower, say HR@125 and see if my HR doesn't drift over time ? I understand that results depend on mood on the day, condition, rest etc etc... but this method (if valid, which I don't know if it is because I can't find another reference elsewhere) seems otherwise quite scientific to me.

[GlennUk]

FWIW

As I am sure you are aware that using HR zones is less than scientific without taking measurements in a lab.

However, in my view, there is a key issue to at least estimating where you transition from one stage of exercise to another, and that is to have an accurate idea of your HR max value.

There are many stress tests around you can do to find your max HR value, mine came after a CTC which was 3miles, r3, 2miles, r2, 1mile, in the last 30 seconds of the final mile my HR topped out at 183bpm. I have since seen a 184bpm on the PM5 so am pretty confident that the number 183 is a good approximation to my HRmax value.

From that i can then estimate my zones using whatever calculator i wish to use, currently the plan im on uses a % of the HR value and it seems to work for me in that when the zones the plan uses say Im bordering on entering the anaerobic zone, my RPE tells me i am too! Other tools will use HRR, based on a calculation using max and resting values.

I have avoided using terms like Zone x, AN, etc since whichever plan you follow, may use differing nomenclature and have a different number of zones and give them different names.

Finally, there are those who completely disagree with exercising based on HR values and simply use RPE as their measure of intensity, whatever works for you is the best method for you as far as i can tell.

JMHO

Glenn

[Dangerscouse]

You will get some HR drift over time, and some suffer from it more than others for some reason, but it's a matter of controlling it as much as you can.

Also bear in mind that it might increase near the end of a split as you're concentrating on keeping it level so adrenaline plays a small part in the increase. So that result is only a snapshot in time and it might drop down straight afterwards.

This looks good to me and I wouldn't worry about it going up by 4bpm. It's more of an issue if it went from 130 to 140, but it's also about the general direction of the drift if it keeps going up then it might be too fast.

Regardless of it seeming quite unscientific the conversation test and RPE are valuable methods too imo, and I regularly use them. There is a significant amount of tolerance in any zone as the human body is very robust and will try and find a way to adapt.

As Glenn says, establishing your maxHR is also really important as that's about as scientific as you can get without a lactate test. Don't bother with 220-age as that might be correct, but that's more by accident than design.

[jrkob]

However, in my view, there is a key issue to at least estimating where you transition from one stage of exercise to another, and that is to have an accurate idea of your HR max value.

Yes this is part of the reason why I am exploring options to improve the accuracy of these zones, and my interest in this thread is specifically for the purpose of "Zone 2 training" which I understand has some kind of accepted definition like a slow workout, improving overall cardiovascular health, while reducing the risk of injuries, with steady sessions of like an hour straight or longer. This guy here https://youtu.be/z82GCNXdLAAhas a large number of videos on the subject, but I found many, many others that go along the same lines. So basically my question today is with these specific goals in mind.

Now, you raise the question of the accuracy of MaxHR. Coincidentally I'm due for my annual health checkup in a month or so and this will include the Bruce treadmill test. This should be giving me a proper MaxHR. Except that... it will be a running MaxHR. What I have observed in the past, is that there is 10bpm difference between my MaxHR for running, and rowing. So I guess this will be my starting point.

[jrkob]

You will get some HR drift over time, and some suffer from it more than others for some reason, but it's a matter of controlling it as much as you can.

Ha I see, ok, so no matter of much I slow it down, my HR will, always, eventually, drift faster to some extent, yes ?
Let me cut to the chase to make it simpler: for a 1h steady session, what would be a reasonable drift showing that I "should" still be probably in Zone 2 (for the specific purpose I have outlined in my earlier post) ? You seem to be fine with my 4bpm tpday (but that wasn't an hour, that was like 20 minutes), but not 10bpm. So shall I consider that anything about say 5bpm drift after an hour, I am probably outside Zone 2 ?

Perhaps I could do a long session tomorrow, say 1h30 at HR130 (I think I can do it), plot the HR over time on a chart and post it here, and you let me know what you think.

Also bear in mind that it might increase near the end of a split as you're concentrating on keeping it level so adrenaline plays a small part in the increase. So that result is only a snapshot in time and it might drop down straight afterwards.

Ok, in the Concept2 row reports, is the HR mentioned the average HR during the split, or the HR a snapshot at the end of the split ?
If it is at the end of the split, I think I could use my Garmin HR data (with the chest strap) instead. Thanks for pointing that out.

Don't bother with 220-age as that might be correct, but that's more by accident than design.

Yes I do not want to use these numbers methods.

Noted on not to discard the other 2 methods you mention, ie talk test and RPE, I had not paid attention to them because yes, they don't seem super scientific to me and I would prefer scientific tests first, but will have a look at them, noted.

[aegis]

I regularly adapt my zones based on the numbers I see, I generally use the heart rate reserve or Karnoven method which requires the max HR and resting heart rate. Recently I was travelling and also fighting a bout of illness, consequently my resting heart rate is up about 5 beats more than normal and I adapted my zones together with it upon returning to training. For the max HR, I generally use the max observed in the last 6 months. Standards formula may or may not work for you, I'm 44 and my max observed HR was 201 in Jan 23.

Both RPE and talk test have its place as well, the talk test while simple is a pretty good indicator of the effort. Other factors such as heat, sleep can also affect your zones. My zone 2 is currently 142-157, if it drifts to 160 at the last 5 minutes I'm not going to sweat it. It's after all a rough guide as to the effort you should be exerting. I reckon I spend about 90% of my time on zone 2 and you need some patience to see results. I'm really pretty average in terms of speed but I've seen my z2 pace go from 2:36/500m to 2:20/500m. Each session is usually a min of 45min up to a half marathon. The upside is that I've stayed injury free, I find the hardest part is actually getting bored so this year I will probably add more intervals to the mix. Last season I usually do 1 hard session each week, I will try to average 1.5-2 a week this season.

[jrkob]

I generally use the heart rate reserve or Karnoven method which requires the max HR and resting heart rate

Yes so I have tried using the methods using both MaxHR and RHR and they give me much higher number than 130. They give me around 140 at which there's no way I can row an hour. It's because my RHR is relatively high. So I have discarded these methods too. If you think there is another way to look at it, please let me know.

[p_b82]

While I don't do a lot of UT2/zone 2 work atm I do try to set a pace that results in a steady HR - as I was training for a HM attempt at the end of last season.

I've worked out that my HR will stop increasing as quickly on harder efforts around 20mins into a row - and roughly stopped rising by 45mins. I'd get variation of 3-5bpm as I was going along both up and down.

When I first started to row, I'd get creep even at low paces throughout the session, it wasn't until my base CV improved that I found things would settle at a given pace; so my early rows were all slowing down to hold a steady HR.

I do find the HRR fits me better for my bandings - which does mean my numbers are pushed higher as I've a fairly high resting HR (though it is coming down as I'm getting fitter).

I've found max HR is achieved on distances around 7-10k; push right to my anaerobic limit and then go all out for a couple mins at the death - that's how I saw 189.

[aegis]

I generally use the heart rate reserve or Karnoven method which requires the max HR and resting heart rate

Yes so I have tried using the methods using both MaxHR and RHR and they give me much higher number than 130. They give me around 140 at which there's no way I can row an hour. It's because my RHR is relatively high. So I have discarded these methods too. If you think there is another way to look at it, please let me know.

There is a range for the zone if you hit the upper bounds quickly maybe just dial it back a bit? If you get it right it should stay well within the mid point of the zones until the end, my average HR are usually lower than the mid point of the zone.

There will be days where you hit the upper bounds quickly for some external reasons and days where you feel good and the same pace could end up in the lower ranges. It's really a guide not an exact science. If I were you I'd try not to exceed 135 and see how it goes.

[jrkob]

Ok thanks guys that's really really helpful.
What I think I'm gonna do is try it again tomorrow but for an hour session at 130 and see what happens, I think 20' wasn't long enough. I did notice like what aegis is saying that various things are happening during a long row.

I think my takeaway is that nobody here - so far - is objecting to the way I'm trying to look at it so I think in this regard my initial question was answered. Just need to refine it.

[GlennUk]

Yes so I have tried using the methods using both MaxHR and RHR and they give me much higher number than 130. They give me around 140 at which there's no way I can row an hour. It's because my RHR is relatively high. So I have discarded these methods too. If you think there is another way to look at it, please let me know.

When you say you cant row at an hour at 140, do yo umean you cannot because your HR drifts or you physically cannot row and have to reduce the effort signfciantly?

Its also worht bearing in mind that whilst many calculators/zone based systems give absolute values for the boundaries between one training zone and another, my understanding is that practically those boundaries are 'fuzzy' HTH Glenn

[jrkob]

Yes understood I will keep in mind that the boundaries of those zones aren't set in stone. I understand there's some flex.

When you say you cant row at an hour at 140, do yo umean you cannot because your HR drifts or you physically cannot row and have to reduce the effort signfciantly?

I believe I physically cannot sustain an effort at 140 for an hour. I believe I would need to stop before.
With that said, I shouldn't have said "there's no way", because I have not tried. It's just a feeling.

I know I can row at 130 for an hour because I've done it a few days ago. See below. In this row, I fixed my HR at 130 and adjusted my effort accordingly. But you can see my splits are getting a little bit slower over time*.
I think it would be better, as a test, if I fixed my splits at say 3', and see what happens to my HR. That would be more relevant to my question. I think.
But I'm coming here seeking for suggestions.

* not a lot, granted, a few seconds only.

[p_b82]

You ought to be able to get your HR up to around 5% of it's max value (MHR or MHHR) on the CV side and still be able to row - it's going to feel uncomfortable to start with if it's unfamiliar, but as your fitness improves that can be sustained for longer and longer time periods.

I can operate at ~90% for an 90mins - my physical strength however gave out before my CV did during my HM. (my legs were empty but my lungs weren't bursting).

There's a recovery cost to working that hard and for easy sessions you won't want to be pushing, but IMO it's worth doing some hard sessions over longer distance but not shorter/harder intervals to find your current aerobic limits; from there you can then more accurately find your bandings for the slower/easier efforts imo.

[aegis]

90% of mhr for 90min is a long time to suffer! Maybe you have a higher mhr. Zones 4/5 for 30min is plenty of suffering for me.

[Sakly]

90% of mhr for 90min is a long time to suffer! Maybe you have a higher mhr. Zones 4/5 for 30min is plenty of suffering for me.

I did my last HM at 90-94% of HR max