Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[GlennUk]

Nothing magic about 90% and I am sure that people vary.

I kind of agree and disagree, the use of HR values to determine the upper aerobic threshold (any threshold) is only an estimate.

In that sense I agree the value one uses in the absence of lab test is an estimate.

However, I would argue that whatever value one uses that it is likely to be close to 90% a few % one way or the other and this forms the basis of many of the estimates and the Eddie Fletcher training plan for FM/100K which i have used for training for FM/100k. The free spirits online calc tool uses a value of 85-95% for TR.

Once the threshold is reached or exceeded then the athlete can only perform at that level for a relatively limited amount of time before they have to slow down or stop.

For me the value of 90% of my measured HRmax value is about right, others may find its different, the point being that one can exercise close to that value for an extended period, but when one crosses it consistently, then one has to slow down or stop IMHO.

As a further thought, I would also add, that the way one calculates ones HR values is a factor as well. I use a simple formula, % x my HRmax value and in my case this worked in terms of the 90% region. Others use HR reserve which give differing values for % HR to be adopted, this will also influence how the athlete perceives the % and workload. If we all use the same method we will probably find we are all in the same % region for the upper threshold.

However, one determines what work rate one can maintain, the body doesnt understand that and we have an upper limit at which we can perform, how one determines what that rate is, is up to the individual.

I agree 90% is not magic, but taken in the round, its a reasonable value to aid an athlete get an idea of a level around which they will begin to suffer over a long period of time.

[iain]

I too was using %HRmax. While I believe %HRR is a better measure, I am not sure over time. The HR achieved for a given workout at a given RPE does seem to decrease for me as fitness increases faster than the minimal impact of the reduced HRMin in the HRR calculation. After not rowing for a year or more, a very modest session will reach 93%+ HRMax (90%+ HRR), possibly RPE 14. After a year's regular training, this would be a hard session RPE 17+.

[GlennUk]

The HR achieved for a given workout at a given RPE does seem to decrease for me as fitness increases faster than the minimal impact of the reduced HRMin in the HRR calculation. After not rowing for a year or more, a very modest session will reach 93%+ HRMax (90%+ HRR), possibly RPE 14. After a year's regular training, this would be a hard session RPE 17+.

Thats interesting, I had perceived that as ones fitness improves, whatever measure one uses that for a given piece that the distance/pace one is able to achieve for a given metric, increases, at least that's my experience.

I may be misunderstanding but it seems your suggesting that as you get fitter, the RPE increases which is counter intuitive. What i mean is that my perception is that i can go further, and faster as my fitness improves for the same HRmax Value at the same RPE.

Have i misunderstood?

[iain]

The HR achieved for a given workout at a given RPE does seem to decrease for me as fitness increases faster than the minimal impact of the reduced HRMin in the HRR calculation. After not rowing for a year or more, a very modest session will reach 93%+ HRMax (90%+ HRR), possibly RPE 14. After a year's regular training, this would be a hard session RPE 17+.

Thats interesting, I had perceived that as ones fitness improves, whatever measure one uses that for a given piece that the distance/pace one is able to achieve for a given metric, increases, at least that's my experience.

I may be misunderstanding but it seems your suggesting that as you get fitter, the RPE increases which is counter intuitive. What i mean is that my perception is that i can go further, and faster as my fitness improves for the same HRmax Value at the same RPE.

Have i misunderstood?

Sorry, not very clear. "A given workout" to me would be the same format (eg 4 x 2k r4'). As you say when fitter this will be done faster. It is just that to achieve the same HR I need to work harder, but at the same RPE I would still be quicker. This is only partially compensated by an increased acceptance of harder sessions so generally I hit the very highest HR less often despite going quicker.

[Sakly]

This is only partially compensated by an increased acceptance of harder sessions so generally I hit the very highest HR less often despite going quicker.

Same here.
Best example my 5k.
First in this season mid july, reaching 181at the end, 175 average:

Code: Select all

18:13.3	5,000m	1:49.3	268	1221	33	175

Last 5k TT attempt in march, reaching 174 at the end, 169 average:

Code: Select all

17:40.5	5,000m	1:46.0	293	1309	28	169

So seven month of progress show much lower HR for a significant higher power output at a lower rate, too.

[aussie nick]

I don’t usually post workout details but this is an exception. I am going to present the results of my first rowing marathon as well as some details of the preceding training. Last summer my training wasn’t consistent enough to support longer distances, but I made the effort to build up a weekly long row just because, and also towards possibly turning in a competitive 2K during the indoor racing season. My total weekly meters were up and down (I continued to pursue other activities, primarily running, stairclimbing, and cycling) but from Oct-Dec I was averaging well over 100K per week (and pushed my lifetime meters past the 180 million mark). The rowing workouts (3-6 per week, depending) were a mix of Wolverine Plan sessions which I’ve been doing for decades. Whatever else I did, I made every effort to include a long Level 3 session. As 2022 drew to a close, I determined for a variety of reasons that I wasn’t going to make it to a 2K race this season. But I decided I would keep increasing the long rows, even though my overall rowing mileage dropped a bit, with the goal of finally rowing 42195 meters in a single session.

Below is a summary of long rows for the last 32 weeks. Theses were just routine training sessions, meaning they weren’t supposed to be easy but neither were they meant to be overly demanding. During this period I did several races of different types, including stair climbs (two Vertical Miles and another multi-building climb) and several road/trail runs (two half marathons, a 15K, a 10K, and two 5Ks). I did the long rows on Sunday, which meant the day after the races (and any travel involved); if the races were on Sunday, I did the long row on Monday. I preceded every long row with a standardized 2500m warm-up which is pretty demanding and is probably more than I need for these sessions, but I’ve always done them and decided to keep things consistent. An hour or two after rowing, I did 60-70' on my recumbent bike for recovery. The next day I resumed my regular training schedule. For each row, I started at a 2:04 pace and let things proceed from there depending on how fresh I felt and how naturally the power increased. Each row was a negative split and while some were a little more difficult than others, I don’t recall there being any sessions where I questioned whether I would finish. Hydration was easy, one water bottle next to the erg that I could grab every 3-4000 meters and take one squirt without losing any time. I never eat before training or racing, relying on the previous day’s meals for proper glycogen storage. (I want an empty stomach and to make sure everything has been processed so I don’t have any unwanted gastrointestinal activity.) I do have coffee before training/racing. I was hungry after the long rows, but I never really felt like I might crash or bonk until I got to 38K. During long runs or stair climbs I use gels for extra calories but didn’t want to lose time while rowing. I cut a banana into thirds and placed them in a bowl within reach of the erg and grabbed a piece between strokes every 10K for the 40K and 42K rows. It seemed to do the trick. For cooling, I have a C-Breeze and an oscillating fan. For each session, the stroke rate was 24-25spm and the drag factor was 114 (same df for all training, not just these sessions). So these were all continuous rows, no breaks or pauses beyond the occasional brief pause at the finish for water or food. Anyway, here is the workout progression:

Week 1 (Aug 28): 16K; 1:05:45.1 (2:03.3)
Week 2: no long row
Week 3 (Sep 11): 17K; 1:09:53.6 (2:03.3)
Week 4 (Sep 18): 17.5K; 1:11:50.6 (2:03.2)
Week 5 (Sep 25): 18K; 1:13:38.0 (2:02.7)
Week 6 (Oct 2): 18.5K; 1:15:39.4 (2:02.7)
Week 7 (Oct 9): 19K; 1:17:16.5 (2:02.0)
Week 8 (Oct 16): 19.5K; 1:19:18.4 (2:02.0)
Week 9 (Oct 24): 20K; 1:22:24.7 (2:03.6)
Week 10 (Oct 30): 20.5K; 1:23:54.1 (2:02.8)
Week 11 (Nov 6): 21K; 1:25:41.8 (2:02.4)
Week 12 (Nov 13): 21.5K; 1:27:23.6 (2:01.9)
Week 13 (Nov 20): 22K; 1:29:13.3 (2:01.7)
Week 14 (Nov 27): 22.5K; 1:32:38.1 (2:03.5)
Week 15 (Dec 4): 23K; 1:34:11.2 (2:02.9)
Week 16 (Dec 11): 23.5K; 1:35:32.1 (2:02.0)
Week 17 (Dec 18): 24K; 1:37:09.9 (2:01.5)
Week 18 (Dec 25): 24.5K; 1:39:20.6 (2:01.6)
Week 19: no long row
Week 20 (Jan 8): 25K; 1:42:14.7 (2:02.7)
Week 21 (Jan 15): 25.5K; 1:43:55.0 (2:02.3)
Week 22 (Jan 23): 26K; 1:45:18.4 (2:01.5)
Week 23 (Jan 30): 26.5K; 1:49:04.6 (2:03.5)
Week 24 (Feb 6): 27K; 1:50:44.8 (2:03.1)
Week 25 (Feb 12): 28K; 1:54:48.0 (2:03.0)
Week 26 (Feb 19): 30K; 2:03:29.5 (2:03.5)
Week 27 (Feb 26): 32K; 2:11:07.3 (2:02.9)
Week 28 (Mar 5): 34K; 2:19:05.0 (2:02.7)
Week 29 (Mar 12): 36K; 2:26:49.7 (2:02.4)
Week 30 (Mar 20): 38K; 2:36:14.8 (2:03.4)
Week 31 (Mar 28): 40K; 2:44:16.4 (2:03.2)
Week 32 (Apr 2): 42.195K; 2:52:36.6 (2:02.7)

The splits for the marathon:
5K) 20:33.8 (2:03.3)
10K) 20:34.6 (2:03.4)
15K) 20:31.6 (2:03.1)
20K) 20:30.0 (2:03.0)
25K) 20:28.6 (2:02.8)
30K) 20:27.7 (2:02.7)
35K) 20:25.7 (2:02.5)
40K) 20:20.2 (2:02.0)
42.195K) 8:44.4 (1:59.4)

So, mission accomplished; I finally got around to a full marathon after all these years (I think my longest continuous row prior to this was 32K). I’m going to step back and re-evaluate from here. I’ll definitely keep doing long sessions but I’m not going to keep extending beyond a marathon or attempt to keep doing faster and faster marathons. I’m considering a couple options and will probably someday target a faster marathon (such as sub-2:00 pace) or a longer continuous row, but I have no definite plans as of now.

of all the impressive achievements you've had on an erg Mike, getting to 180million lifetime metres without ever rowing more than 42k in one sitting is perhaps the most remarkable.

[GlennUk]

and pushed my lifetime meters past the 180 million mark

I hadnt noticed the 180M, that's an astonishing figure by any measure. When i started this thread i had in mind single events lasting a long period of time, there is no doubt that Mike has endured much more than many of us, truly a feat of endurance to be sure.

It appears from an article i have just seen that Mike has been rowing since c.1979 which means an average of c.4M per year.

[Mike Caviston]

of all the impressive achievements you've had on an erg Mike, getting to 180million lifetime metres without ever rowing more than 42k in one sitting is perhaps the most remarkable.

Thank you. I wasn't fishing for compliments but it is nice to have it acknowledged.

It appears from an article i have just seen that Mike has been rowing since c.1979 which means an average of c.4M per year.

I began tracking meters in 1987 (Model B erg) and logged 140 million up to 2007 with a pretty consistent annual output across the two decades. Since then, the output has dropped considerably and been pretty variable, from barely a million to about 5 million in a given year. I bought my own machine during the COVID shutdown so my meters have been up recently (though I got zero meters for just over a year prior to finally getting to the top of the wait list). Adding my lifetime OTW meters to the grand total wouldn't move the needle very much.

[Dangerscouse]

Thank you. I wasn't fishing for compliments but it is nice to have it acknowledged.

You clearly don't fish for compliments, notwithstanding that you deserve every one you get, but 180 million metres is truly astounding, as is five million in a season.

I did 4.4 million in 2020/21 season (lockdown) and I thought that was a lot, and I'm not sure I'll ever get over that distance despite regularly doing HMs every week.

[sanbornm]

Slides during long rows......

In 2021 I did a 100km row as a fundraiser. At the advice of an accomplished rowing coach friend of mine, I did all my training and the 100km event on slides.

I'm doing the 100km charity event again this year. The beginning part of my training, which was all limited to half marathon distance or less, was done on a static erg. Last week I broke out the slides for the first time this season and did 28km.

Honestly, I'm undecided on whether I should use the slides for the long distance row. I know there are lots of discussion points about slides in a dedicated thread, but these are all in relation to typical distances (2k, 5k maybe). Nobody over there is talking about the super long rows.

I'm fishing for opinions or any insights here about the slides vs. no-slides for the endurance erging crowd.

[Elizabeth]

Slides during long rows......

In 2021 I did a 100km row as a fundraiser. At the advice of an accomplished rowing coach friend of mine, I did all my training and the 100km event on slides.

I'm doing the 100km charity event again this year. The beginning part of my training, which was all limited to half marathon distance or less, was done on a static erg. Last week I broke out the slides for the first time this season and did 28km.

Honestly, I'm undecided on whether I should use the slides for the long distance row. I know there are lots of discussion points about slides in a dedicated thread, but these are all in relation to typical distances (2k, 5k maybe). Nobody over there is talking about the super long rows.

I'm fishing for opinions or any insights here about the slides vs. no-slides for the endurance erging crowd.

I use both in my training, and don't have strong feelings either way about this. Slides provide an advantage for sprints, and are also easier on my back if I up the drag (which I would not do on anything longer). I don't personally perceive a difference in pace over about 1k or so. I've heard others say there is a point at which they are slower but I haven't noticed it.

If there is any possibility that you may be in the realm of setting a record with this row, I would reach out to Concept2 ahead of time. They separate static vs slides vs dynamic for their shorter records but have nothing in their rules for ultra endurance records. I would hate to set such a long "record" only to find that it doesn't count.

[Dangerscouse]

If there is any possibility that you may be in the realm of setting a record with this row, I would reach out to Concept2 ahead of time. They separate static vs slides vs dynamic for their shorter records but have nothing in their rules for ultra endurance records. I would hate to set such a long "record" only to find that it doesn't count.

Great comment. I have no experience of slides, or dynamic rower, so I can't offer any advice.

[Claudius]

I am very happy with my slides. I have had mild knee problems for a long time, nothing bad, could run a half marathon without any problems, after that it becomes critical. Rowing on the Static Erg is no problem - not even a half marathon. It's at a full marathon that the problems start. Not with the slides. I'm actually not faster on the slides over long distances (>10k). But I can do longer distances without knee pain. Because it's just more low impact. Some struggle with the technique - and that's probably why they're slower. On shorter distances, the slides actually have an advantage. I would say at least up to 5k. So if you're fast on the roll - you'll be able to take advantage of the slides on longer distances (5-10k) - but if you're fast on the roll - the overall benefit of the slides is less - because if you're fast on the roll = you can handle a high number of strokes, you'll be fast on a static erg, too. Therefore, for me the slides are not an instrument to be really faster, but rather an instrument to save the knee joints more on longer distances...AND - to get a little closer to this feeling on the water - dynamic indoor rowing is great !

[jcross485]

For those who are familiar with the Eddie Fletcher Marathon Plan - it notes you need to know 2k time and max HR. The HR piece I have down; the 2k time I do not. Do anyone know if it is practical to pick another known (ie. HM) time/pace within the chart and use it to select target pace ranges?

For example, I did my most recent HM at 2:00.0/500 pace and was not far off of my limit. That would put my 2k time, according to the chart, somewhere between 6:56 - 7:08. Based on current ability / fitness, that "seems" to be fair.

[contdrift86]

For those who are familiar with the Eddie Fletcher Marathon Plan - it notes you need to know 2k time and max HR. The HR piece I have down; the 2k time I do not. Do anyone know if it is practical to pick another known (ie. HM) time/pace within the chart and use it to select target pace ranges?

For example, I did my most recent HM at 2:00.0/500 pace and was not far off of my limit. That would put my 2k time, according to the chart, somewhere between 6:56 - 7:08. Based on current ability / fitness, that "seems" to be fair.

Why not just crank out a 2km?