8000m / 30min still (physically) possible?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
RayOfSunshine
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Re: 8000m / 30min still (physically) possible?

Post by RayOfSunshine » April 4th, 2023, 5:48 pm

Quitsa Strider wrote:
April 4th, 2023, 12:50 pm

Just today I pulled an averaged 247 watts for 30 minutes finishing with 8016 meters - 13th in the world this year in our age bracket. https://log.concept2.com/rankings/2023/ ... ower=rower. Your goal is achievable!

I’m happy to further answer specific questions on your path to 8k - good luck!

-Ethan
Congrats!

Actually 12th in the world as Brian Bosch appears to have done a manual entry (and has a verified race entry).
Male, January 1971
Neptune Beach, FL
on way back to LWT

Bow
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Joined: December 26th, 2022, 12:03 am

Re: 8000m / 30min still (physically) possible?

Post by Bow » April 9th, 2023, 11:58 am

Quitsa Strider wrote:
April 4th, 2023, 12:50 pm
I’m in an adjacent boat to you, @Bow, in that I’m a 47 year old former collegiate varsity lightweight (6’/183cm; 165lbs/75kg) who had last touched a 30’ 8K more than 8 years ago. I’ve maintained a functional baseline of fitness since then though hadn’t chased erg PB’s in almost a decade.

Most years I’ve attempted the 200K C2 holiday challenge and not much more. I’ve been an erg data devotee having tracked every piece I’ve pulled back to 2008 giving me a wealth of data on how fitness builds across seasons even as consistency hasn’t been my friend.

September 2022 I got back on the erg and started tracking performance data and building fitness, again! My baseline piece that I’ve pulled for years is a 5k and usually can crack sub 20’ (203 watt average) when untrained and that was where I started back in September.

I highly recommend shifting your thinking from 500 meter splits to wattage in pursuit of 8k in 30’ as learning how to pace the piece is critical and the inverse cube law for how time and distance are calculated on an erg cause small pace increases to require larger power outputs.

To that end, an 8000 meter+ piece in 30 minutes requires maintaining an average of 246 watts. Your last 6k was at an average of 186 watts so you can see how you’ll need to train towards a 33% increase in power in a piece roughly 20% longer than that 6k. I’d recommend testing weekly pieces that you are comfortable with aiming to build ~2% power each week. So, now that you know you can pull a 186 watt average 6k, next week aim for a 190 watt+ 6k.

Mix it up with shorter interval work (Work out of the Day on the C2 app has a good mix) along with longer pieces (10k, hour of power, half marathon) and begin to learn what wattage you can sustain for each duration. Then, once you’ve got that baseline - push the wattage numbers up ~2% week over week as well.

Pacing across each piece will also be critical to hit your goal. Negative splits (or positive wattage increase) across any piece is the most metabolically efficient pacing strategy so use your baseline power targets to improve efficiency. For example, when you aim to hit 190 watt average for a 6k, build that piece by averaging 188 watts for the first 1200 meters, 189 watts for the next 1200, 190 watts, then 191 watts, and a controlled ramp for the last 1200 above 191 watts. If you build the piece that way you’ll train yourself to balance right on the edge of what’s possible each week. Within each piece big jumps in power are metabolically expensive so see how tightly you can pace to target to get the most out of each piece.

Just today I pulled an averaged 247 watts for 30 minutes finishing with 8016 meters - 13th in the world this year in our age bracket. https://log.concept2.com/rankings/2023/ ... ower=rower. Your goal is achievable!

I’m happy to further answer specific questions on your path to 8k - good luck!

-Ethan

thanks, very interesting. A complete rethink is needed - my whole life is always 500m/time my pacemaker. I also like to use my heart rate as the pace setting.
Unfortunately, I currently have to accept a 14-day setback - Covid positive... so start slowly again and then only build up the pace again in a few weeks.
Going to Watt will be a big change, I have to test it with split screen first ;-)

Quitsa Strider
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Re: 8000m / 30min still (physically) possible?

Post by Quitsa Strider » April 11th, 2023, 1:56 pm

Sorry to hear about your COVID result - listen to your body and take the rest you need.

Shifting from 500 meter splits to wattage I’ve found to have a number of benefits, especially when chasing personal bests. What initially caused me to make the change was the need to tightly pace a piece to hit a PB without blowing up mid-piece. What I realized was that the display on the PM5 only shows 3 digits of precision for each stroke pulled (unless you pull calories) and there is an appreciable power difference between a 1:52.0 split and 1:52.9. You wouldn’t get that feedback and how your pacing was developing as both stokes would show as 1:52 without the decimal.

To illustrate that point, drilling into the 30’ test from last week, take a look at the interval table: https://log.concept2.com/profile/700948/log/74778830
Notice how the first 80% was between 1:52.6 and 1:52.4; had I set the display to show 500 meter splits I wouldn’t have know, stroke by stroke, whether I was above or under my target of 1:52.5 (245.8 watts) needed to hit 8k in 30’. Notice how I was able to settle into exactly 246 watts / 1601 meters per 6’ segment and conserve energy for a small ramp for the last 6 minutes.

In addition to the more precise feedback when pulling wattage, the math is much easier to understand for how you are spending your energy budget within the piece. As my target was 246 (1:52.5/500) average it is simple with a foggy mid-piece brain to understand that a stroke at 258 (1:50.7/500) is 5% above my goal and if I don’t dial the power back on the next stroke I risk blowing up before the end. 1:52.9/500 is 243.2 watts whereas 1:52.0/500 is 249.1 watts - nearly a 2.5% difference but both strokes would show as if they were the same effort of 1:52/500 when the PM5 display is set to 500 meter splits.

In my experience when chasing personal bests, 2.5% above your last best average wattage can be achieved week by week but larger gains, for me, don’t happen. I find it significantly more encouraging to notch those small gains as proof of increased fitness rather than aiming too high (3%… 4%..?), flaming out, and not booking the learnings for where your training is taking you and what is possible in the moment.

Today’s work for me was building off of the 246 average 30’ minute piece last week and completing the Workout of the Day: a 6k test. I haven’t rowed 6k specifically in quite a while but knew that 251 watt average was possible for the shorter piece. Staying patient and focused on that goal allowed me to notch a 254 watt average for 6k in 22:15.0. https://log.concept2.com/profile/700948/log/74778830

Hope this makes sense, happy to answer any questions.

-Ethan

Bow
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Re: 8000m / 30min still (physically) possible?

Post by Bow » April 12th, 2023, 6:51 am

Yes I understand, really a good approach!
the PetePlan gives me a good path that I can easily follow - and it has also improved every cycle. Then I will start slowly again soon when my HFV (the infection was very clear there - the day of the positive test rapidly downwards - exciting to see how well the garmin fenix records it) has recovered. Because I still want to include a little "crossfit style" training units (simply because it becomes a comprehensive, healthy workout - also with push elements such as bench press, shoulder press, biceps for the girls ;-) ), it will be a long distance anyway.

But I can live with that, let's see how "far" I can get by the end of the year - in good, functionally fit full-body training - there's also a bit of being healthy and looking good naked.
Besides, there is also a "Murph" workout every year - in addition to squats, which are theoretically trained when rowing, you also need pushups and pullups. Hopefully, at least the aerobic part of running will be kept fit by rowing...

Thank you again for the tips, I'll report from time to time how it's going, maybe someone else is also interested in the thread.

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