What is “Elite” on the RowErg?

[Gorow]

Is there a generally accepted standard for “elite” performance within a given age group/weight class on a Concept 2 RowErg? And if not, would anyone care to suggest one, for purposes of debate/discussion? I assume it would be based on upper strata in C2 rankings and/or competitions…and of course, vary by event…

[Sakly]

I would agree, if consensus is found in > 97-98th percentiles of rankings.

[Dangerscouse]

Imo C2 rankings are 99% of the time going to exclude elite results because I believe that they're not allowed to share their training results, with some very occasional exceptions eg I saw a 9k 30r20 from Ollie Zeidler.

The 1% of the time will consist of elite rowers who have stopped competing, and may decide to post something, someone like the wunderkind that is Isiah Harrison who doesn't compete professionally or the occasional former athlete who is exceptionally talented eg Jason Marshall.

I guess there's also an issue of what you call elite too. Is sub 6 elite, or do you need to be closer to 5:50?

Personally I think sub 6 for a male and sub 6:40 for a female is elite. I'm not sure of female equivalents, but sub 16 5k, 9k+ 30r20 and possibly 18k 60 mins are elite results, albeit the 30 and 60 are possibly a bit too high

[Cyclist2]

"Elite" is a very nebulous term. I've been "elite" in my category at certain competitions because I was only one or two that showed up! If you compare the rowers winning at, say, the Head of the Charles, you won't find their names on the C2 rankings (maybe a few, I didn't compare closely) but they are the "elite" at that competition, for sure. So, are the people at the top of the C2 rankings not elite? Sure they are, in that particular setting. Then there is the filtering by age and weight that narrows the potential participants to a smaller group. Again, they are the "elite" in their particular category at that particular competition when they are at or near the top. The 101 year old person just finishing a 2K, in my book, is elite!

Another way to say that is, "elite" has any number of definitions. Defining it sets the standard.

[MPx]

Well "elite" is tough to define, but we know when we see it and its exceptional. Sadly Sascha, I agree with Stu that the rankings don't include many of the elite at our sport. I'm currently reported as at the 98th %ile for most of the pieces pieces from 1min to 10k for 60+ fatties. But obviously I'm very aware that I am absolutely miles from elite standard. Even of those who have posted, Nick is normally on a completely different planet from 2k up, as was Richard C (LGF) and Jon B (Nav) and many others. Many aren't posting any more and the "real" elite never did, other than the 2k races - they were special! But you do get an inkling looking at the ranking numbers. Often there will be a little cluster around a good solid score, but then just one or two absolutely miles in front of anyone else. Getting somewhere close to world records might be a useful start - certainly up to 40+.

[Sakly]

Probably I have a different understanding of elite.
For me elite does not mean that you have to be professional at what you do. You have to build the top with others, regardless of a defined threshold. And that is exactly what the ranking does. It shows which people build this small group with very good results.
Surely the top of rankings will likely not reach the values of the top level professionals, but Peter, Harry, Klaus or Barbara, Erika, Elena, will give their best besides their 9-5 jobs, other than professionals, which get training plans, meal plans, probably get paid for it.

For me the elite group is defined by the top of the group I want to compare. Rankings for "normal" people - competitions/races for professionals. Different baseline, different (possible) effort, different outcome.

[btlifter]

Is there a generally accepted standard for “elite” performance within a given age group/weight class on a Concept 2 RowErg? And if not, would anyone care to suggest one, for purposes of debate/discussion? I assume it would be based on upper strata in C2 rankings and/or competitions…and of course, vary by event…

I hope the responses here have at least answered your first question...

No, there is no accepted standard for elite.

[Gorow]

Is there a generally accepted standard for “elite” performance within a given age group/weight class on a Concept 2 RowErg? And if not, would anyone care to suggest one, for purposes of debate/discussion? I assume it would be based on upper strata in C2 rankings and/or competitions…and of course, vary by event…

I hope the responses here have at least answered your first question...

No, there is no accepted standard for elite.

Yes! It does answer my initial question, THANKS! So, let me rephrase it: If Concept 2 launched a new “Elite RowErg Annual Recognition Program,” and called YOU for your opinion of how to define “elite” performances in every age/gender/weight/event, how would you define it? Top 3? Top 5%? 10%? Only winners of USRA-certified races??

Or would you say it is not worth defining…which may be a valid answer…

[btlifter]

Is there a generally accepted standard for “elite” performance within a given age group/weight class on a Concept 2 RowErg? And if not, would anyone care to suggest one, for purposes of debate/discussion? I assume it would be based on upper strata in C2 rankings and/or competitions…and of course, vary by event…

I hope the responses here have at least answered your first question...

No, there is no accepted standard for elite.

Yes! It does answer my initial question, THANKS! So, let me rephrase it: If Concept 2 launched a new “Elite RowErg Annual Recognition Program,” and called YOU for your opinion of how to define “elite” performances in every age/gender/weight/event, how would you define it? Top 3? Top 5%? 10%? Only winners of USRA-certified races??

Or would you say it is not worth defining…which may be a valid answer…

Personally, my perspective is that it's un-definable.

Or maybe, more accurately, that there are infinite legitimate interpretations of "elite". Rendering it unhelpful to use the term as a sincere descriptor/label.

*My response might seem 'snarky'. My apologies; I do think yours is a reasonable question. I just - personally - don't believe there is a single reasonable answer.

[JaapvanE]

Or maybe, more accurately, that there are infinite legitimate interpretations of "elite". Rendering it unhelpful to use the term as a sincere descriptor/label.

Personally, I think that any rower over 70 that is on the Erg on a regular basis, by definition is Elite and a shining example for the rest of us....

[Elizabeth]

Further supporting Stu's point, none of the women's 23-39 heavyweight medalists from WRICH 2023 have a ranked Concept2 ranking for their respective events. I have the fastest ranked women's 6k time for this ranking season and I am pretty positive that Kirsten has beat it but hasn't ranked her piece. I wouldn't be surprised if members of various national teams are in the same boat. So it's hard to rely on the Concept2 rankings to quantify top-level performance.

I'm sure that you could draw a line, but it would be arbitrary and to what end?

[Nomath]

The description 'elite' is often used in the title of scientific papers on rowing. It usually means that the participants are selected from those performing on a national or international level. Within the elite group, you may find 'world champion rowers' or the much broader group of 'high-performance' rowers.
Categories below elite are 'competitive', 'junior', 'recreational' and 'novice'. Amongst 'competitive' you may find the distinction between 'university' and 'college' rowers.
The participants in these studies are mostly aged between 16 and 30 yrs. It reflects that competitive rowing is usually centered on on-the-water competitions, not as a one-person activity but as a crew in various boat types.

I guess that the RowErg world generally consists of much older participants who train and perform more individually.

[Sakly]

I guess that the RowErg world generally consists of much older participants who train and perform more individually.

Is it the conclusion for you that there is no elite level on rowErg?
As everyone is doing it on his own and majority of people are older 30 years? Because scientific papers are not taking this group into account for studies?

[MPx]

Well even on the very small minority of ergers who post on here we have (at least!) a couple of Elite Rowers by any measure in Cam and Elizabeth. To me either setting or being in the same ball park as a world record has to be elite - particularly where those scores have greater peer comparisons up to say 50+. There are a few similar at the top of the monthly CTC tables though they may not appear here or even in the rankings. But I'm in no doubt that there is an elite cohort active on ergs.

[Dangerscouse]

Well even on the very small minority of ergers who post on here we have (at least!) a couple of Elite Rowers by any measure in Cam and Elizabeth. To me either setting or being in the same ball park as a world record has to be elite - particularly where those scores have greater peer comparisons up to say 50+. There are a few similar at the top of the monthly CTC tables though they may not appear here or even in the rankings. But I'm in no doubt that there is an elite cohort active on ergs.

+1 Cam & Elizabeth are elite imo.