Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[RWAGR]

Thanks so much all!

@Stu- would love to target stronger times but tbh I think I only have one marathon (or long distance piece) in me per year. This is because the 2-3 months focused training takes too much time out of my weights program, etc. still, would be great to improve year on year.

For this year I want to target 10k, 30min, 5k, 2k which given current baseline fitness and that I weigh 20+ lbs lighter than previous times, is I hope achievable.

[Dangerscouse]

@Stu- would love to target stronger times but tbh I think I only have one marathon (or long distance piece) in me per year. This is because the 2-3 months focused training takes too much time out of my weights program, etc. still, would be great to improve year on year.

For this year I want to target 10k, 30min, 5k, 2k which given current baseline fitness and that I weigh 20+ lbs lighter than previous times, is I hope achievable.

Fair comment mate. It's not for everyone, and sometimes, just doing a really solid FM is all that is needed.

I'm very confident that you'll beat all of those PBs that you're targeting. The FM success filters down into every session above 5k. 2k not so much ime, but that's just me and hopefully you'll be better able to benefit from it

[RWAGR]

Thanks bro!

[DavidA]

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
2:52:24.8 42,195m 2:02.5 190 953 22
41:07.7 10,000m 2:03.3 186 941 21
41:08.3 10,000m 2:03.4 186 940 22
41:04.8 10,000m 2:03.2 187 943 22
40:45.3 10,000m 2:02.2 191 959 23
8:18.7 2,195m 1:53.5 239 1121 27

Thanks for all the help! Did it w my buddy Nate who rowed a great marathon about 18 seconds faster. We're both stoked.

Great job by the both of you!

David

[Mike Caviston]

I don’t usually post workout details but this is an exception. I am going to present the results of my first rowing marathon as well as some details of the preceding training. Last summer my training wasn’t consistent enough to support longer distances, but I made the effort to build up a weekly long row just because, and also towards possibly turning in a competitive 2K during the indoor racing season. My total weekly meters were up and down (I continued to pursue other activities, primarily running, stairclimbing, and cycling) but from Oct-Dec I was averaging well over 100K per week (and pushed my lifetime meters past the 180 million mark). The rowing workouts (3-6 per week, depending) were a mix of Wolverine Plan sessions which I’ve been doing for decades. Whatever else I did, I made every effort to include a long Level 3 session. As 2022 drew to a close, I determined for a variety of reasons that I wasn’t going to make it to a 2K race this season. But I decided I would keep increasing the long rows, even though my overall rowing mileage dropped a bit, with the goal of finally rowing 42195 meters in a single session.

Below is a summary of long rows for the last 32 weeks. Theses were just routine training sessions, meaning they weren’t supposed to be easy but neither were they meant to be overly demanding. During this period I did several races of different types, including stair climbs (two Vertical Miles and another multi-building climb) and several road/trail runs (two half marathons, a 15K, a 10K, and two 5Ks). I did the long rows on Sunday, which meant the day after the races (and any travel involved); if the races were on Sunday, I did the long row on Monday. I preceded every long row with a standardized 2500m warm-up which is pretty demanding and is probably more than I need for these sessions, but I’ve always done them and decided to keep things consistent. An hour or two after rowing, I did 60-70' on my recumbent bike for recovery. The next day I resumed my regular training schedule. For each row, I started at a 2:04 pace and let things proceed from there depending on how fresh I felt and how naturally the power increased. Each row was a negative split and while some were a little more difficult than others, I don’t recall there being any sessions where I questioned whether I would finish. Hydration was easy, one water bottle next to the erg that I could grab every 3-4000 meters and take one squirt without losing any time. I never eat before training or racing, relying on the previous day’s meals for proper glycogen storage. (I want an empty stomach and to make sure everything has been processed so I don’t have any unwanted gastrointestinal activity.) I do have coffee before training/racing. I was hungry after the long rows, but I never really felt like I might crash or bonk until I got to 38K. During long runs or stair climbs I use gels for extra calories but didn’t want to lose time while rowing. I cut a banana into thirds and placed them in a bowl within reach of the erg and grabbed a piece between strokes every 10K for the 40K and 42K rows. It seemed to do the trick. For cooling, I have a C-Breeze and an oscillating fan. For each session, the stroke rate was 24-25spm and the drag factor was 114 (same df for all training, not just these sessions). So these were all continuous rows, no breaks or pauses beyond the occasional brief pause at the finish for water or food. Anyway, here is the workout progression:

Week 1 (Aug 28): 16K; 1:05:45.1 (2:03.3)
Week 2: no long row
Week 3 (Sep 11): 17K; 1:09:53.6 (2:03.3)
Week 4 (Sep 18): 17.5K; 1:11:50.6 (2:03.2)
Week 5 (Sep 25): 18K; 1:13:38.0 (2:02.7)
Week 6 (Oct 2): 18.5K; 1:15:39.4 (2:02.7)
Week 7 (Oct 9): 19K; 1:17:16.5 (2:02.0)
Week 8 (Oct 16): 19.5K; 1:19:18.4 (2:02.0)
Week 9 (Oct 24): 20K; 1:22:24.7 (2:03.6)
Week 10 (Oct 30): 20.5K; 1:23:54.1 (2:02.8)
Week 11 (Nov 6): 21K; 1:25:41.8 (2:02.4)
Week 12 (Nov 13): 21.5K; 1:27:23.6 (2:01.9)
Week 13 (Nov 20): 22K; 1:29:13.3 (2:01.7)
Week 14 (Nov 27): 22.5K; 1:32:38.1 (2:03.5)
Week 15 (Dec 4): 23K; 1:34:11.2 (2:02.9)
Week 16 (Dec 11): 23.5K; 1:35:32.1 (2:02.0)
Week 17 (Dec 18): 24K; 1:37:09.9 (2:01.5)
Week 18 (Dec 25): 24.5K; 1:39:20.6 (2:01.6)
Week 19: no long row
Week 20 (Jan 8): 25K; 1:42:14.7 (2:02.7)
Week 21 (Jan 15): 25.5K; 1:43:55.0 (2:02.3)
Week 22 (Jan 23): 26K; 1:45:18.4 (2:01.5)
Week 23 (Jan 30): 26.5K; 1:49:04.6 (2:03.5)
Week 24 (Feb 6): 27K; 1:50:44.8 (2:03.1)
Week 25 (Feb 12): 28K; 1:54:48.0 (2:03.0)
Week 26 (Feb 19): 30K; 2:03:29.5 (2:03.5)
Week 27 (Feb 26): 32K; 2:11:07.3 (2:02.9)
Week 28 (Mar 5): 34K; 2:19:05.0 (2:02.7)
Week 29 (Mar 12): 36K; 2:26:49.7 (2:02.4)
Week 30 (Mar 20): 38K; 2:36:14.8 (2:03.4)
Week 31 (Mar 28): 40K; 2:44:16.4 (2:03.2)
Week 32 (Apr 2): 42.195K; 2:52:36.6 (2:02.7)

The splits for the marathon:
5K) 20:33.8 (2:03.3)
10K) 20:34.6 (2:03.4)
15K) 20:31.6 (2:03.1)
20K) 20:30.0 (2:03.0)
25K) 20:28.6 (2:02.8)
30K) 20:27.7 (2:02.7)
35K) 20:25.7 (2:02.5)
40K) 20:20.2 (2:02.0)
42.195K) 8:44.4 (1:59.4)

So, mission accomplished; I finally got around to a full marathon after all these years (I think my longest continuous row prior to this was 32K). I’m going to step back and re-evaluate from here. I’ll definitely keep doing long sessions but I’m not going to keep extending beyond a marathon or attempt to keep doing faster and faster marathons. I’m considering a couple options and will probably someday target a faster marathon (such as sub-2:00 pace) or a longer continuous row, but I have no definite plans as of now.

[iain]

Thanks Mike for the detail on your Marathon training. Congratulations on completing your first FM.

I am interested in whether you decided on this approach (at least part way through) to train for a serious FM, or did you just extend your long rows to enable you to compete an FM? I ask this as your training is different from that advocated by others where longer rows are either significantly shorter than the FM or done at a slower pace. Do you feel that building to the distance was an effective training strategy? I know that you have historically managed a much higher training volume than most, so may recover more quickly from these efforts. But even when I was rowing close to 100k per week, I always found that rows approaching FM took a considerable amount more out of me than other training sessions and compromised sessions for several days afterwards and I never did them faster than 5S/500m slower than my expected FM pace!

[Sakly]

to train for a serious FM, or did you just extend your long rows to enable you to compete an FM?

When looking at the splits of all the gradually extended rows, it gets very clear that this was not a "serious FM" and also the mentioned goal was not sounding like that:

But I decided I would keep increasing the long rows, even though my overall rowing mileage dropped a bit, with the goal of finally rowing 42195 meters in a single session.

Congratulations for reaching your goal also from my side

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks, Mike. Really interesting to read this, and FWIW I take the same approach for preparation, albeit now if Im doing a FM I don't exceed 32k as it feels like I'm so close to the full distance I might as well just do it. For my first FM, I got up to 35k the week before.

[Mike Caviston]

I am interested in whether you decided on this approach (at least part way through) to train for a serious FM, or did you just extend your long rows to enable you to compete an FM?

The latter. I just wanted to go the distance within the framework of a legitimate workout (not just paddling or taking breaks along the way). I don’t know what I would consider to be a “serious” FM, but it would probably have to be done at a venue race (not virtual, not posting something in the rankings). There can’t be many FM races, but who knows.

I ask this as your training is different from that advocated by others where longer rows are either significantly shorter than the FM or done at a slower pace. Do you feel that building to the distance was an effective training strategy?

Effective training, sure, but not necessarily for the best possible FM. I don’t know. I’ve run several marathons with my longest runs being 18-19 miles, but the pace was not too much slower than my marathon pace (like, 10 seconds per mile). Recovering from long rows is easier than long runs, so going up to the full distance while rowing wasn’t counter-productive. I don’t understand how some people can row as slow as they do – the actual mechanics of it. The stroke being an explosive action, a “horizontal jump” to accelerate the flywheel (or boat). It seems like trying to jump in slow motion. But I digress. If I decide to pursue a faster marathon in the future, training will probably include long days with near-marathon distance or even over-distance in 2-3 segments with breaks (like 2 x 21K or 33K + 17K).

I know that you have historically managed a much higher training volume than most, so may recover more quickly from these efforts. But even when I was rowing close to 100k per week, I always found that rows approaching FM took a considerable amount more out of me than other training sessions and compromised sessions for several days afterwards and I never did them faster than 5S/500m slower than my expected FM pace!

Years of training have certainly improved my capacity to recover. Then there is the reality that I am older and not able to hit the paces I used to hit and therefore have less to recover from (it’s not necessarily relative – I still train as “hard” as I ever have but less actual work means less trauma). I also think many people make assumptions about recovery without actually systematically testing the limits of what they can do or recover from. Or they use dubious metrics such as HR or some training app to decide if they are “recovered”. And finally, the training I’ve described here is definitely slower than my “expected” FM pace, though I don’t exactly know what I would expect. But probably 1-2 sec/500m faster than what I did yesterday if I was sufficiently motivated. I keep making the point that serious training for performance (not just exercise for health) should be challenging and even hard, though not harder than you can recover from.

[Elizabeth]

Mike, congratulations on reaching your goal. I appreciate you outlining your training leading up to it as well. Those are some impressive meters!

If anyone is interested in a full marathon at a race venue, ErgSprints offers one in Alexandria VA. We've missed it for this year but I expect it will be there next February as well.

[iain]

Mike, thank you very much for your comprehensive answer. Regarding recovery, I find that when fatigued I cannot maintain the same work per stroke, typically I will come up significantly short on an L4 even for 30' despite harder effort levels than normally used for training sessions. I am aware that this suggests muscular rather than the cv fatigue that might be expected (and is stressed by Eddie Fletcher). I surmise this is because as my CV tires, my rating tends to drop despite maintaining the same pace so that I end up increasing the muscular load.

[RayOfSunshine]

For each row, I started at a 2:04 pace and let things proceed from there depending on how fresh I felt and how naturally the power increased. Each row was a negative split and while some were a little more difficult than others, I don’t recall there being any sessions where I questioned whether I would finish.

Thanks so much for all of this information. Curious, how did you arrive at the 2:04 pace?

[Mike Caviston]

Thanks so much for all of this information. Curious, how did you arrive at the 2:04 pace?

Just based on workouts from the previous few months. It was a pace I was confident I could hold for an extended period even on a bad day, from which I could probably get a little faster during the workout on most days.

[RayOfSunshine]

Thanks so much for all of this information. Curious, how did you arrive at the 2:04 pace?

Just based on workouts from the previous few months. It was a pace I was confident I could hold for an extended period even on a bad day, from which I could probably get a little faster during the workout on most days.

Thanks for the speedy response. I'll start Saturday with a 16k, starting at 2:28 pace.

[GlennUk]

Just based on workouts from the previous few months. It was a pace I was confident I could hold for an extended period even on a bad day, from which I could probably get a little faster during the workout on most days.

I suggest that part of the objective of any training is to identify the pace one can achieve for the event being trained for. How one determines what that pace is, is also important. I used % of HRmax value as that was what my training was based on for my FM PB, worked for me.