Newbie Questions

[robhely]

Hi All, I'm new to the forum and quite new to indoor rowing having started off with 4 months on a water rower (Fluid E-520) and now into my 3rd week on the Concept2.

I'm 52 years old, 5'10.5" and 69.5kg, so squarely in the lightweight category.

The transition from the water rower to the C2 has been tough, I'd read that water rowers were faster, but I didn't realise quite how much faster. At my best I was able to pull a 16:18 for the 5000m on the E-520, which, according to Rowing Level, is only 6 seconds off the world record for my age category! So yes, it was very humbling to get on the C2 and immediately be struggling to get any splits under 2 mins and now have a best time of 19:41.7 for the 5000m

Also, the C2 has a very different 'feel' to a water rower, the first thing I struggled with massively was the catch. On the WR there is immediately a lot of resistance at the catch, which makes it easy to "push off" with the legs, applying considerable force. On the C2, I had to re-learn the technique and take into account the speed of the flywheel, which is already spinning quite fast at the catch. Generally, it seems that the C2 requires higher SPM to get the splits lower, as well as a much faster change in direction while pushing off. I've watched countless videos on technique and done a lot of drills, so I think my technique is reasonable now and my splits are much better.

I'm wanting to improve my times on longer rows (which I'm much better at), such as the 5000m, 30 mins and 10,000m and am unsure of how to train for these. Up until recently I've been just jumping on the erg and doing these rows hard out day after day, but I suspect that's not best strategy and I'm probably already quite fatigued when I go into an all out assault on something like the 10,000m. More recently I've been practicing several strength and endurance based workouts, such as the 500m hard out / 1min rest drill and 30 mins of rowing at different intensities and stroke rates. I also have tried workouts like rowing consistently for 30 mins at 80%. I do 5 mins warm-ups and cool downs. But, I have some questions:

1. If I want to improve my rankings on the longer rows I mentioned, how often should I be doing an all-out row and do I need a rest day before the attempt?

2. What is generally the best training for longer rows up to 10,000m?

3. What is a good target to aim for in terms of metres rowed per week (over 4 days) to train?

4. Is it OK to train more than once per day? I did 11,000m yesterday over 2 seperate session and felt more fatigued that when I row a similar distance in one session.

5. Does the Rowing Level website take rower weight into consideration with the calculator? Obviously it doesn't with the rankings.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

[winniewinser]

Hi and welcome.

I'm sure others with more insight will be reply but as a starter have a look at the https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/beginner-training/. This is a decent plan with a variety of distance and interval sessions which works well for improvements on the erg. I did all 24 weeks when I first started and will likely go through it again as I'm returning to the rower after injury/Covid. Ignore the 'beginner' part as it works for all I think.

General rule of 80/20 for training is also something that is know to work for some.....80% low and slow metres and 20% harder work such as intervals etc.

Good luck

[MPx]

This is tough to answer as you are already doing well for a lightweight on just 4 outings a week. I'd second Alex's suggestion of following a plan (like the BPP) rather than simply going after a PB every outing as that will never work once passed newbie gains whereas the plans have a history of success.

I think the oft followed 80/20 split mentioned is really more applicable to a higher load than you are proposing. Only 4 sessions per week suggests not much more than every other day, particularly if you double up on the odd session/day. So you have plenty of rest days - unless they are fillled with other (non-erg) strenuous activity. Its all about how well you recover - you want to go reasonably hard, but not when fatigued.

The other thing is that rowing/erging generally is largely an aerobic sport once passed sprint distances - say more than 4 mins. Aerobic capacity is enhanced by volume, so you need to spend as long as you're prepared to sawing away. Its this commitment to lots of long sessions that dictates they are slower - so that you can recover from them. You also want some variety so that you don't get too bored or simply trained into one rate/pace so including hard intervals of various sorts at least once each week will be a great benefit.

Not really worth testing more than every couple of months (or more) - it takes time for any adaptations to take hold. Best of luck with it.

[mitchel674]

Welcome and congrats on your new rowerg!

I would second a look at the beginner Pete plan. I've gone through it three times. It really offers great advice and a structured plan to meet your beginner needs. I generally tried to complete all 5 rows weekly. They are a combination of increasingly longer steady rows coupled with some tougher intervals of varying lengths and intensities.

Right now, you sound like you approach rowing as a way to get a good daily workout. You get on, row hard, and then repeat the next day. This type of training will not build your engine for longer rows and likely will just burn you out. You can't be going for PBs every time you sit down on the machine. Most sensible training combines a lot of long, steady rows at lower pace with a smattering of speed and interval work. You should also be factoring in the necessary rest days as you noted on your recent two a day effort.

I'll never forget my first time on a water rower after using the Concept2 for a few months. I felt like a rowing god! Near world record pace from this very mediocre rower. It was an eye opening example of how you just cannot compare machines. Concept2 rowerg is the standard.

[iain]

I would second that you need to be largely recovered to do justice to a hard session. Doing sub-optimal hard (sometimes called "grey") sessions has been shown to have less training effect than mixing up truly hard sessions with slower sessions. Personally I don't think there is a one size fits all approach, you need to listen to your body. Personally I find that if I am fatigued then I have to rate higher to achieve the same pace, so I slow down! If you do multiple sessions in a day, all but 1 should be very slow (a pace you can talk while rowing). I would recommend having a day off before a PB attempt and probably do a slower (or shorter work out at the pace of a longer one) the day before that. How often you do this depends on what keeps you motivated, but I wouldn't do the same distance twice in 3 weeks after the beginner gains have been had. However slow sessions have a surprisingly large cumulative effect, so are always preferable to a day off unless preparing for a time trial.

Best of luck and remember the most important aspect of any training program is that you continue it long term so you need to do training that you enjoy. I am frequently surprised what others enjoy, we are all different.

- IAin

[robhely]

Thanks all for your encouragement and advice, there are some extremely useful takeaways for me there. I'll definitely try the training program and I'm happy to up my training to 5 days per week. I'm also a very keen mountain biker, so usually spend the days I'm not rowing riding and trail building, hence the 'days off'.

Interesting that the general advice is to go after PBs very infrequently, I can absolutely understand that my frequent attempts are probably just creating fatigue and not good for long term building of strength and endurance. I really like the idea of mixing up mostly long, slower rows with the odd faster interval session.

I used to do a lot of road cycling and my strength was big hill climbs, so I'm no stranger to long distance suffer-fests!

[robhely]

Just wondering with the Pete Plan, how hard should I be going on the longer pieces? I've been assessing output using heart rate, my max on a hard-out piece seems to be around 185, so should I aim for around 80%, which is around 148? I guess this would be UT1. Should I go up to AT for the intervals?

My DF is usually 125 (sometimes go up to 130 for shorter sprints) and my average SPM for longer rows with maximum effort has been around 25. For the training I'd imagine that I'll want to go lower than that, more like 20 - 24.

I'll really have to resist the habit I've fallen into of going as fast as I possibly can on the distance pieces. For 5000m I'm usually pulling 1:58 ish, so dropping that back to 2:05 or even 2:10 should be more beneficial. If I'm currently doing 10,000m at 2:00, that might equate to 2:15.

[Dangerscouse]

Just wondering with the Pete Plan, how hard should I be going on the longer pieces? I've been assessing output using heart rate, my max on a hard-out piece seems to be around 185, so should I aim for around 80%, which is around 148? I guess this would be UT1. Should I go up to AT for the intervals?

My DF is usually 125 (sometimes go up to 130 for shorter sprints) and my average SPM for longer rows with maximum effort has been around 25. For the training I'd imagine that I'll want to go lower than that, more like 20 - 24.

I'll really have to resist the habit I've fallen into of going as fast as I possibly can on the distance pieces. For 5000m I'm usually pulling 1:58 ish, so dropping that back to 2:05 or even 2:10 should be more beneficial. If I'm currently doing 10,000m at 2:00, that might equate to 2:15.

The general rule is to aim for circa 70% for the longer distances, but imo, and judging by other rowers, it's anywhere between 70% and 80% as you may respond differently. All I really care about is am I enjoying it, and am I recovering from it?

Dropping your stroke rate down to r20-24 will be beneficial but it will also take a bit of getting used to, so try and lower it incrementally. For example, drop down 1 or 2spm after five sessions rather than straight away, as it's not something that will feel natural to start with.

[jamesg]

I'll really have to resist the habit I've fallen into of going as fast as I possibly can on the distance pieces. For 5000m I'm usually pulling 1:58 ish, so dropping that back to 2:05 or even 2:10 should be more beneficial. If I'm currently doing 10,000m at 2:00, that might equate to 2:15.

That's fine so long as you don't do so much that it leads to overtraining.

In rowing what counts is the stroke, since there's nothing else we can do. Yours looks good in terms of Watts/Rating, so use it. Anything up to 2-3h a week can be at high rates (AT and over), but beyond that will need to be low rate, if at all.

[iain]

I would say the longer rows should be at least 10S/500m slower than your 5k PB. You want to maintain as strong a stroke on the longer rows but at a slower rate. So slowing from 2:00 to 2:10 would mean dropping the stroke rate from 25 to 20. This is done by only slowing the slide back up to the catch and try and keep the rest the same. This will mean that you feel really slow on the recovery, but try not to pause. Most importantly don't slow the drive.

[robhely]

I would say the longer rows should be at least 10S/500m slower than your 5k PB. You want to maintain as strong a stroke on the longer rows but at a slower rate. So slowing from 2:00 to 2:10 would mean dropping the stroke rate from 25 to 20. This is done by only slowing the slide back up to the catch and try and keep the rest the same. This will mean that you feel really slow on the recovery, but try not to pause. Most importantly don't slow the drive.

Thanks, I tried this tonight and it felt really good. I averaged 21SPM over 5000m @ 2:05 with heart rate at UT1. Next time I'll try going even slower.

Still a bit confused about drag factor, I can't decide if it's easier or harder at 120 vs 125. I guess the logic is that the lower the DF, the faster the rower has to pull to maintain the same pace.

[robhely]

Anything up to 2-3h a week can be at high rates (AT and over), but beyond that will need to be low rate, if at all.

So something like 5 x 30 - 40min rows in a week at AT wouldn't be 'overtraining' at my level?

[iain]

Anything up to 2-3h a week can be at high rates (AT and over), but beyond that will need to be low rate, if at all.

So something like 5 x 30 - 40min rows in a week at AT wouldn't be 'overtraining' at my level?

Everyone is different, what I suspect James meant was that this was the maximum not at a low rating. Rowing at the bottom of AT with no other hard exercise, good rest and nutrition might well be achievable, but that wouldn't extend to all out 30' or 10k PB attempts. Also "AT" is an imprecise term, some would use this only for rows that never went above the band, while others would use this for any 20'+ row. Of course many of us don't recover fast enough for that, so the main story is listen to your body!

[winniewinser]

Too many AT sessions and my Garmin is screaming at me to rest......only stats I know but an indicator none the less.

[MPx]

Just wondering with the Pete Plan, how hard should I be going on the longer pieces? I've been assessing output using heart rate, my max on a hard-out piece seems to be around 185, so should I aim for around 80%, which is around 148? I guess this would be UT1. Should I go up to AT for the intervals?

Pete has put in notes about the desired training effect and pace which I'll copy below. I'd suggest less hard on the longer pieces (UT2). Certainly the short intervals being speed work have no HR restriction and are properly hard. The speed endurance section aka the longer intervals is aimed at AT, but I'm guessing most would find it harder than that! Anyway, Pete says....

The desired training effect

Read this short section if you’re interested in the training effect you are gaining for each group of sessions. You learnt whilst completing the 24 week training plan (or from reading through what you’ll be doing over the next 24 weeks) that the sessions fit into a few distinct groups. There are only three groups overall, so you’ll now find out which sessions fit together, and what the desired training effect is from those sessions.

Group 1 – Endurance (distance) training:

Endurance training is really where you make the big gains in fitness, and should always be the backbone of any training plan. Without the basic fitness, no amount of power or strength is going to help. Towards the later stages of the 24 week ‘Pete Plan’ these endurance sessions were in two formats, single pieces (such as 10000m & 30min) and longer intervals split by short rests (such as 2 x 15min & 3 x 10min). Remember that the rest times when you split the distance into intervals should be no more than a quarter of the preceding interval time.

Group 2 – Speed Endurance (AT) training:

You might hear other people talk of this group of training sessions as anaerobic threshold (AT) sessions, as they are very good at improving your AT. As you’re unlikely to have had the necessary physiological testing to be training to strict heart rate limits, you can just think of them as speed endurance training sessions. They are there to improve your endurance at faster paces, by rowing for extended periods followed by comparatively long rests compared to the pure endurance sessions. The total distance tends to be less than the distance sessions too, to enable you to work at a higher pace. The sessions you have been rowing in this group are 4 x 2000m and 5 x 1500m. Generally the rest time between this intervals will be close to half of the preceding interval time.

Group 3 – Speed training:

The final group of sessions is designed to work on your pure speed, around the pace you would row a single 2000m test piece at. Doing one of these sessions (such as 4 x 1000m, 5 x 800m & 8 x 500) once every 1 to 2 weeks is a good part of a balanced training plan, but if you’re not planning on doing a test piece for 2000m in the near future, these are the least vital sessions in the plan. The rest time between intervals on these sessions would generally be around 1 to 1, ie resting for a similar time to the preceding work interval.