How can I pr my 2k Row [Rookie][Aerobic][Endurance]

[Kerry1960]

Wise words Iain. I have found getting the pacing right on 2ks is very difficult and personal. I have tried it at
very high spm , 32 -34 spm, quite low 27 spm and everything in between. Sweetspot for me personally is 29-30 but difficult to get it just right. Much easier to pace right on anything above 2k.

[p_b82]

Thanks for that link, Never seen this before.
I remember doing this 1k trial that I went 300m Fast opener(sub 1:40) - 400m "recovery" at my predicted average pace that I thought I could manage to finish the trial at. For the last 300m I went hammer mode and did what I could.

I am not sure.. I only noted my avg time per 500m. But I believe I kept about 30-32 SPM. I remember using Damper 5.
When you say Force at ut2 zone, what do you mean by Force?
Rate = SPM?

When I do my (Zone2) rows, I keep the damper at around 3-4. If I go below 2:08 avg, my hr will go above 155.
According to this calculator: Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 129 bpm to 151 bpm with a mean of 140 bpm.
I did put a max HR of 195 - Resting 48.
I use to follow 180 Minus Age(25) (155).

If i'd keep a ~1:59 Pace, we'd be lookin at 160-165+ HR, for sure.
Should I bump up the damper and go slower SPM?
Also, should I stick with 70%(151 bpm) according to the calculator?
155 HR for me feels sorta relaxed, I can talk and I barely sweat. Feels like I could go forever.
Thanks alot for your comment!

Next time you row I'd look at what your SPM (and yes sorry rate is spm) is for your comfortable pace - aka 2:08; you can use it as a guide to just understand the difference with the effort you're putting in for that vs the effort you need to do for your 2k. and/or compare to your 1k. checking your rows back in the logbook or in ergdata can be helpful to to trace progress and analyse a session.

not knowing the exact spm of the piece does make it difficult to use the spm based metrics - but many don't use them at all so it's not "needed" - I personally just look at the numbers and see the trends rather than do any specific rate training around them.

I have found that I can rate higher at the same pace for a lower HR - it took trial and error over longer pieces (10-14k) to find this out. It means that I do less work per stroke, but make up the overall pace through a higher stroke volume. Around 24spm is my gentle rate - 27spm is for longer stuff and 30-32 my sprint rate; it is personal to every-one though, so find what works best for you.

Force is the effort you are exerting through the stroke, I was being a little lazy with my terms - it can be traced on the PM5/ergdata, but stroke length, force applied and spm are used to calculate the power output (also displayed).

On the C2 it's better to use your Drag factor rather than the damper setting - it's just a value that will be the same across any C2 erg (but age/maintenance will alter the damper position) - I personally use ~120 DF on all my rows 2k-> HM, I'm not interested in the sprints where people often raise it. Just find a DF that you find is comfortable and feels "right" and stick to it; you'll know the right one as your stroke will just flow regardless of the pace/rate.

And really around the HR levels, it's more about what you can sustain and also recover from for you training volume and is a guideline only; your body might have great recovery so you can push harder into UT1 for every "gentle" session. rate of perceived effort (RPE) and HR are great for spotting insufficient recovery.

I personally only row 3 times a week max (or row 2x and hike); I don't do any other exercise, as such I can make every row I do a "hard" session if I feel like it; I hate doing intervals, my body and mind just does not respond well to it, so I just go for single duration efforts - not as efficient a method to maximise the rate of improvement from a scientific perspective, but it works for me. It's this reason why I don't follow any plans as I'll just get demotivated "having" to do intervals if I follow anything like that.

[Sakly]

I am amazed when you say that these paces were achieved from your beginning. That's so good.
I've been at it for 6 years now, but not just rowing. Crossfit overall, so I would have to "master" every moment. Which has consumed alot of time and dedication. But since I know every moment now with closed eyes I am back to basics, rower and endurance.

I am mainly doing bodyweight stuff packed in circle/interval trainings, only big lifts (deadlift, squat) with weights and reps and sets.
This is why I already had quite good stamina, but also well developed strength (squat 5x10 @100kg, deadlift 3x10 @120kg no problem).
Rowing itself is a surprisingly technical exercise. Small details can change the outcome massively. So probably you lack also a good amount of technique to get good results. A video from the side to see flaws would help much.

200k in a month.. That's more than x3 in volume what I do now. Before this, I did barely 5k a week. Now I am at roughly 15k/60k a month.
That's nuts. I really gotta get the meters in.

Yes. Not only for cv system, also to burn in the technique/movement to your nervous system. The more you row, the more efficient you will get in this movement.

When you say atleast 3 of your sessions are slow, can you give an example what it would look like, just constant rowing for a specific meter/time?
If that 4th session would be a harder pacing, what would that look like in volume / intensity? Intervals with recovery, etc.

My logbook is open to anyone, you can look it up, if you want.
My slow sessions typically are 10k, 60min or HM based on the amount of time I have. Pace is typically from 2:00 for shorter to 2:03/4 for longer pieces. That leads me to HR of 135 - 140bpm average, which is 70-75% (185 max, 42 resting) . For steady states I typically use a max of ~80% of max HR, but also align it with RPE and recovery.
Yesterday, as example, I had two 60min sessions, one at 2:00 and one at 2:06. The second one felt harder, so I reduced pace accordingly. HR drops as well, but fatigue is not related to HR.
My harder sessions are often longer distances at faster pace at aerobic threshold, but also intervals like 4x1k 3:30 rest or 8x500m 2' rest. As I participate the CTC this is also considered as a hard session as it always is full effort (this month 6x1k 1' rest).

Any tips of what I should keep in mind when I progress, increase time, meters, etc?
Or just keep rowing for long at UT2 repeatedly?

Progress is coming its way. Keep doing long slow work, but slow does not mean easy. I believe that you need to work to get an adaption not only for cv system. This is why I do not follow the advice "you must be able to talk and drink coffee", but trust my body and how it feels in terms of RPE and recovery.

How would you program me if I row:
Mondays, Wednesdays and fridays.
What would you recommend that I do in terms of volume?

I personally would go for a 10k, 60min and a HM on the 3 days to get meters in. Your CF sessions give you already hard work, so I would rarely do hard stuff on the erg or exchange a CF/weights training session with a hard rowing session, if you feel for it. This is how I do it, to ensure proper recovery. In my log you will not find many hard sessions on the rower.
But in the end you also need to do hard sessions on the rower as well to get comfortable with higher rates, the feeling of pain during rowing, etc. If I would do more intervals and hard sessions on the rower, I bet I would be even faster than I already am.

[Elizabeth]

I use both watch and strap if I run. But when I do rowing, I connect my strap to the rower (no watch).

When you train alot at your UT2, do you feel like your pacing increases and your HR stays the same? With that I mean, do you feel like you're getting faster without working harder?

From what I read, the body will adapt. Is that neccessarely true from your experience? I am just curious.
Thanks alot!

Long term, my UT2 paces have gotten faster with time. By this I mean that they're faster now than they were a year ago. But on a daily basis, sometimes my heart rate is higher and sometimes it's lower, and I adjust pace accordingly. UT2 is about developing endurance and metabolic adaptations, not about impressing people with your pace.

If your question is more about the impact on my faster pieces, it's easier to bring it hard when I'm not doing it everyday, and I have a relatively easier time maintaining pace in hard sessions. (It's still hard but I'm not dying.) I also did the Cross-Team Challenge today and held a steady pace for the first 5 1000m intervals, and was able to finish slightly faster. Also my pace for hard sessions and races has gotten steadily faster over time. They're always hard, I just get faster doing it.

I think my training log is open on Strava, username eltgilmore. It includes all cardio but I don't bother logging strength there.

[Mikec2]

Thanks for that link, Never seen this before.
I remember doing this 1k trial that I went 300m Fast opener(sub 1:40) - 400m "recovery" at my predicted average pace that I thought I could manage to finish the trial at. For the last 300m I went hammer mode and did what I could.

I am not sure.. I only noted my avg time per 500m. But I believe I kept about 30-32 SPM. I remember using Damper 5.
When you say Force at ut2 zone, what do you mean by Force?
Rate = SPM?

When I do my (Zone2) rows, I keep the damper at around 3-4. If I go below 2:08 avg, my hr will go above 155.
According to this calculator: Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 129 bpm to 151 bpm with a mean of 140 bpm.
I did put a max HR of 195 - Resting 48.
I use to follow 180 Minus Age(25) (155).

If i'd keep a ~1:59 Pace, we'd be lookin at 160-165+ HR, for sure.
Should I bump up the damper and go slower SPM?
Also, should I stick with 70%(151 bpm) according to the calculator?
155 HR for me feels sorta relaxed, I can talk and I barely sweat. Feels like I could go forever.
Thanks alot for your comment!

Next time you row I'd look at what your SPM (and yes sorry rate is spm) is for your comfortable pace - aka 2:08; you can use it as a guide to just understand the difference with the effort you're putting in for that vs the effort you need to do for your 2k. and/or compare to your 1k. checking your rows back in the logbook or in ergdata can be helpful to to trace progress and analyse a session.

not knowing the exact spm of the piece does make it difficult to use the spm based metrics - but many don't use them at all so it's not "needed" - I personally just look at the numbers and see the trends rather than do any specific rate training around them.

I have found that I can rate higher at the same pace for a lower HR - it took trial and error over longer pieces (10-14k) to find this out. It means that I do less work per stroke, but make up the overall pace through a higher stroke volume. Around 24spm is my gentle rate - 27spm is for longer stuff and 30-32 my sprint rate; it is personal to every-one though, so find what works best for you.

Force is the effort you are exerting through the stroke, I was being a little lazy with my terms - it can be traced on the PM5/ergdata, but stroke length, force applied and spm are used to calculate the power output (also displayed).

On the C2 it's better to use your Drag factor rather than the damper setting - it's just a value that will be the same across any C2 erg (but age/maintenance will alter the damper position) - I personally use ~120 DF on all my rows 2k-> HM, I'm not interested in the sprints where people often raise it. Just find a DF that you find is comfortable and feels "right" and stick to it; you'll know the right one as your stroke will just flow regardless of the pace/rate.

And really around the HR levels, it's more about what you can sustain and also recover from for you training volume and is a guideline only; your body might have great recovery so you can push harder into UT1 for every "gentle" session. rate of perceived effort (RPE) and HR are great for spotting insufficient recovery.

I personally only row 3 times a week max (or row 2x and hike); I don't do any other exercise, as such I can make every row I do a "hard" session if I feel like it; I hate doing intervals, my body and mind just does not respond well to it, so I just go for single duration efforts - not as efficient a method to maximise the rate of improvement from a scientific perspective, but it works for me. It's this reason why I don't follow any plans as I'll just get demotivated "having" to do intervals if I follow anything like that.

I will check that asap I row next. I believe I keep 23-24spm when I row at my zone 2, casual rowing.
And on the same damper, to go faster, I just boost my effort + speed in recovery. That will result in 27-30 spm.
I'll try to put DF higher (D6-7) and see what that feels like. Slower SPM but more explosive pull.
I personally like sprinting on D5 because my quads dont blow up as much. Obviously I'd have to keep higher SPM. I guess it's a taste thing.

Very interesting. I didn't even know you could do that, dragfactor check. I will definitely check that one out. I've always just put the damper at 4 or 5 and go for it. I believe that 5 would be somewhat close to 120.

Interesting, I personally love intervals, I guess because it's all i've done. Intervals with slow recovery.
I recover very fast and I can go again at the same speed. But as a result of this, I guess my long endurance hasn't developed a thing.
I don't like longer distances, if I am going to be honest, anything above 2k freaks me out a bit. Even zone 2. Being used to fast twitch, you do your job and you rest. Now it's long and high volume, I guess it's just a boredom. But I have to advance in that, or I will not make progress in my goals.

Thanks for that link, Never seen this before.
I remember doing this 1k trial that I went 300m Fast opener(sub 1:40) - 400m "recovery" at my predicted average pace that I thought I could manage to finish the trial at. For the last 300m I went hammer mode and did what I could.

I am not sure.. I only noted my avg time per 500m. But I believe I kept about 30-32 SPM. I remember using Damper 5.
When you say Force at ut2 zone, what do you mean by Force?
Rate = SPM?

When I do my (Zone2) rows, I keep the damper at around 3-4. If I go below 2:08 avg, my hr will go above 155.
According to this calculator: Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 129 bpm to 151 bpm with a mean of 140 bpm.
I did put a max HR of 195 - Resting 48.
I use to follow 180 Minus Age(25) (155).

If i'd keep a ~1:59 Pace, we'd be lookin at 160-165+ HR, for sure.
Should I bump up the damper and go slower SPM?
Also, should I stick with 70%(151 bpm) according to the calculator?
155 HR for me feels sorta relaxed, I can talk and I barely sweat. Feels like I could go forever.
Thanks alot for your comment!

Next time you row I'd look at what your SPM (and yes sorry rate is spm) is for your comfortable pace - aka 2:08; you can use it as a guide to just understand the difference with the effort you're putting in for that vs the effort you need to do for your 2k. and/or compare to your 1k. checking your rows back in the logbook or in ergdata can be helpful to to trace progress and analyse a session.

not knowing the exact spm of the piece does make it difficult to use the spm based metrics - but many don't use them at all so it's not "needed" - I personally just look at the numbers and see the trends rather than do any specific rate training around them.

I have found that I can rate higher at the same pace for a lower HR - it took trial and error over longer pieces (10-14k) to find this out. It means that I do less work per stroke, but make up the overall pace through a higher stroke volume. Around 24spm is my gentle rate - 27spm is for longer stuff and 30-32 my sprint rate; it is personal to every-one though, so find what works best for you.

Force is the effort you are exerting through the stroke, I was being a little lazy with my terms - it can be traced on the PM5/ergdata, but stroke length, force applied and spm are used to calculate the power output (also displayed).

On the C2 it's better to use your Drag factor rather than the damper setting - it's just a value that will be the same across any C2 erg (but age/maintenance will alter the damper position) - I personally use ~120 DF on all my rows 2k-> HM, I'm not interested in the sprints where people often raise it. Just find a DF that you find is comfortable and feels "right" and stick to it; you'll know the right one as your stroke will just flow regardless of the pace/rate.

And really around the HR levels, it's more about what you can sustain and also recover from for you training volume and is a guideline only; your body might have great recovery so you can push harder into UT1 for every "gentle" session. rate of perceived effort (RPE) and HR are great for spotting insufficient recovery.

I personally only row 3 times a week max (or row 2x and hike); I don't do any other exercise, as such I can make every row I do a "hard" session if I feel like it; I hate doing intervals, my body and mind just does not respond well to it, so I just go for single duration efforts - not as efficient a method to maximise the rate of improvement from a scientific perspective, but it works for me. It's this reason why I don't follow any plans as I'll just get demotivated "having" to do intervals if I follow anything like that.

I'll try to tape how I row for intervals and for recovery.
The thing I found is that, the "correct" way of rowing, getting waay infront with the handle to get the longest pull,up on the ball of your foot and push legs first with tight core, straigth arms, burns my quads so fast. I did this technique when I did: 9 Rounds of: 1:40s ON - :20s OFF, After 5 set, Rest 2:00. (4119m) Total - Average: 1:49.2 Per 500m.
I did this recently and it was a PR for me. I felt very bad in my quads after the 5th round. The burning was real, but I could keep that pace steady entire way through. If I go more crossfit style, where you dont lift your heel up and you just reach forward and push with your back and legs at the same time. I do higher SPM, Lower overall speed, but it feels better.
I guess I just have to keep doing the "right" way over and over, more quads, until I get fully used to it.
I wouldn't say it's very smart to do it in a metcon where you have other squatting movements aswell with the rower, therefor maybe practising that technique is not the most efficent for my goal?

I will try those intervals out and see how it feels. What paces do you aim for at those 1k's and 500's intervals? Your 2k Pace, etc.

Tbh, I don't do any crossfit wods anymore. I know every movement in and out. I now break them up into pieces. I only put my weaknesses into work. Typically I would pick a movement and work on it. And now have the Rower as my prior movement.
My main in Strength and Endurance. So I always start off my workouts with heavy squats or deadlifts. End up with some movements I am less good at and I hammer those and then full focus on Rower.

Mondays AM - Push Aerobic Threshold intervals with slow recovery and go multiple sets(?) PM - Zone 2 Bike 60 min
Wednesday AM - 10k Row - Zone 2 (Maybe PM Run?)
Friday AM - try to get a 60 min Row? First time ever. Longest i've done is probably 35 min in one sitting.

I use both watch and strap if I run. But when I do rowing, I connect my strap to the rower (no watch).

When you train alot at your UT2, do you feel like your pacing increases and your HR stays the same? With that I mean, do you feel like you're getting faster without working harder?

From what I read, the body will adapt. Is that neccessarely true from your experience? I am just curious.
Thanks alot!

Long term, my UT2 paces have gotten faster with time. By this I mean that they're faster now than they were a year ago. But on a daily basis, sometimes my heart rate is higher and sometimes it's lower, and I adjust pace accordingly. UT2 is about developing endurance and metabolic adaptations, not about impressing people with your pace.

If your question is more about the impact on my faster pieces, it's easier to bring it hard when I'm not doing it everyday, and I have a relatively easier time maintaining pace in hard sessions. (It's still hard but I'm not dying.) I also did the Cross-Team Challenge today and held a steady pace for the first 5 1000m intervals, and was able to finish slightly faster. Also my pace for hard sessions and races has gotten steadily faster over time. They're always hard, I just get faster doing it.

I think my training log is open on Strava, username eltgilmore. It includes all cardio but I don't bother logging strength there.

That's awesome. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to impress anyone. I just want to get faster for a longer period of time. Basically I want to be able to "stride" at a "fast" pace. Where I could run/row and be in control, not gasping for air, laying down and cry after the distance has been accomplished. Because I've done that for 6 years and I havn't really gotten any faster for longer distances.

Some people run at 4:30/KM pace with a zone 2 HR. When I do that, I have 188, zone 5. Basically that's their "easy" pace, but it's my hard pace.

Tbh, my question would be if your easy paces has developed without you getting more tired. Basically, improved your endurance from doing all the slow heartrate training.
That's awesome! When it's faster but the feeling remains the same. It means you have developed.

How long will it take you personally to see improvement? Just curious. Improvements in your aerobic base.
I'd be amazed if I could ever achieve running at 4:30/KM Pace meanwhile still being in my UT2-UT1.

[Sakly]

I'll try to tape how I row for intervals and for recovery.
The thing I found is that, the "correct" way of rowing, getting waay infront with the handle to get the longest pull,up on the ball of your foot and push legs first with tight core, straigth arms, burns my quads so fast. I did this technique when I did: 9 Rounds of: 1:40s ON - :20s OFF, After 5 set, Rest 2:00. (4119m) Total - Average: 1:49.2 Per 500m.
I did this recently and it was a PR for me. I felt very bad in my quads after the 5th round. The burning was real, but I could keep that pace steady entire way through. If I go more crossfit style, where you dont lift your heel up and you just reach forward and push with your back and legs at the same time. I do higher SPM, Lower overall speed, but it feels better.
I guess I just have to keep doing the "right" way over and over, more quads, until I get fully used to it.
I wouldn't say it's very smart to do it in a metcon where you have other squatting movements aswell with the rower, therefor maybe practising that technique is not the most efficent for my goal?

It is always smart to use the best technique of a movement as it is the most efficient one.
If I use the more efficient movement pattern, I need much less effort to get the same speed/distance. So I have less overall stress of all muscles involved and can use more energy for other exercises (or get better results on the rower, when going all out).

I will try those intervals out and see how it feels. What paces do you aim for at those 1k's and 500's intervals? Your 2k Pace, etc.

Last time I did the 4x1k (3' rest) I aimed for 1:42, which was a bit faster than my 2k pace (1:44) at this time. But this was to slow so I ramped up during the intervals a bit and got 1:41.2, which was quite near to the 2k pace of my PB which I got 7 weeks later.
8x500 2'r I was aiming for 1:40, but also this was to slow, so I could ramp up and got an average of 1:39.3. This session was 2 weeks before my 2k PB, so ~2k-2.

Tbh, I don't do any crossfit wods anymore. I know every movement in and out. I now break them up into pieces. I only put my weaknesses into work. Typically I would pick a movement and work on it. And now have the Rower as my prior movement.
My main in Strength and Endurance. So I always start off my workouts with heavy squats or deadlifts. End up with some movements I am less good at and I hammer those and then full focus on Rower.

I would suggest first go for technique and skill, then for heavy stuff, then metcon. Otherwise your nervous system is already stressed and new movements and technique cannot be adapted well. This is the reason why I do skill stuff always first, then training from heavy to easy.

Mondays AM - Push Aerobic Threshold intervals with slow recovery and go multiple sets(?) PM - Zone 2 Bike 60 min
Wednesday AM - 10k Row - Zone 2 (Maybe PM Run?)
Friday AM - try to get a 60 min Row? First time ever. Longest i've done is probably 35 min in one sitting.

I would recommend AT sessions not as interval, do longer harder rows with lower spm instead. 10k at 2k+10 probably. This will give you a good session for technique, stroke power and also aerobic conditioning.
I would also shift most time to rowing, as this is the most technical movement compared to running out biking. If you like to run and bike in parallel, go for less time in both and add the remaining time to rowing.
Another advice: increase rowing volume gradually, not as a step function. Your body will thank you.
As an example:
Week 1: 5k, 30min, 10k.
Week 2: 30min, 30min, 10k
Week 3: 10k, 30min, 10k
Only increase, if week before was fine and recovery well.

[p_b82]

I will check that asap I row next. I believe I keep 23-24spm when I row at my zone 2, casual rowing.
And on the same damper, to go faster, I just boost my effort + speed in recovery. That will result in 27-30 spm.
I'll try to put DF higher (D6-7) and see what that feels like. Slower SPM but more explosive pull.
I personally like sprinting on D5 because my quads dont blow up as much. Obviously I'd have to keep higher SPM. I guess it's a taste thing.

Very interesting. I didn't even know you could do that, dragfactor check. I will definitely check that one out. I've always just put the damper at 4 or 5 and go for it. I believe that 5 would be somewhat close to 120.

Interesting, I personally love intervals, I guess because it's all i've done. Intervals with slow recovery.
I recover very fast and I can go again at the same speed. But as a result of this, I guess my long endurance hasn't developed a thing.
I don't like longer distances, if I am going to be honest, anything above 2k freaks me out a bit. Even zone 2. Being used to fast twitch, you do your job and you rest. Now it's long and high volume, I guess it's just a boredom. But I have to advance in that, or I will not make progress in my goals.

Ergdata can show more info than is needed really on some of the tabs if you configure it - depends on how geeky you want to be and whether it becomes a distraction or not! (I typically have the force curve, wattage, pace, time/distance left, hr and a few others between ergdata and pm5)

On my erg in my location, 120DF is just under 5 on the damper currently.

When I first started, I'd do very gentle rows as that was all I could cope with, but built up the time in the seat; within a month I'd done up to 35mins, 2 months an hour; 4 months 1.5hrs and did my first HM 4.5months after I'd erg'd for the first time. Not setting any records bar my own ones, but just getting the feel for the motion and burning in the muscle memory.

I've been slacking recently, but my average active daily meters is still nearly 9k - I like to do between 45-60mins typically - get my HR up to 170-175 and crack on - Did 14k (67mins) not long ago where hr was at 175 after 25mins and the last 20mins was 181/182; but I was still breathing once per stroke and not panting, so I didn't feel "stressed" at all during it. Theoretically a TR zone training session by HR but I actually felt it was just high end AT by physiological responses. It was a lesson in giving a bit more weight to RPE than what my HR says. (and that I can push to 90% MHRR for long periods, something I think I can thank my hiking for)

I listen to music when I row, helps me get in the zone regardless of the effort of the piece I'm doing - I struggle to settle into a rhythm without it and everything is a bit more inconsistent. Although it can be annoying if my earbuds fall out/get loose midway through a session.

[Mikec2]

It is always smart to use the best technique of a movement as it is the most efficient one.
If I use the more efficient movement pattern, I need much less effort to get the same speed/distance. So I have less overall stress of all muscles involved and can use more energy for other exercises (or get better results on the rower, when going all out).

Last time I did the 4x1k (3' rest) I aimed for 1:42, which was a bit faster than my 2k pace (1:44) at this time. But this was to slow so I ramped up during the intervals a bit and got 1:41.2, which was quite near to the 2k pace of my PB which I got 7 weeks later.
8x500 2'r I was aiming for 1:40, but also this was to slow, so I could ramp up and got an average of 1:39.3. This session was 2 weeks before my 2k PB, so ~2k-2.

I would suggest first go for technique and skill, then for heavy stuff, then metcon. Otherwise your nervous system is already stressed and new movements and technique cannot be adapted well. This is the reason why I do skill stuff always first, then training from heavy to easy.


I would recommend AT sessions not as interval, do longer harder rows with lower spm instead. 10k at 2k+10 probably. This will give you a good session for technique, stroke power and also aerobic conditioning.
I would also shift most time to rowing, as this is the most technical movement compared to running out biking. If you like to run and bike in parallel, go for less time in both and add the remaining time to rowing.
Another advice: increase rowing volume gradually, not as a step function. Your body will thank you.
As an example:
Week 1: 5k, 30min, 10k.
Week 2: 30min, 30min, 10k
Week 3: 10k, 30min, 10k
Only increase, if week before was fine and recovery well.

That is facts.

Great numbers that you can keep there. I am currently rowing without a 2k PR. Just making a hum of what it could be. I'd say maybe 1:50 AVG.
I will try this workout, interesting to see how I feel. By the looks of it, I am probably looking at a very discomfortable pace for that duration, esp 4 sets of 1k's at 1:50. It does scare me. I know I can endure the pain, but it will be harsch. I'd guess we'd be lookin at 175-180 bpm. I'll get back to you with the results of this, for sure.

When you say 10k at 2k + 10. Do you mean intervals with 2:00 AVG(based on a 1:50 2k) or tryna keep a nonstop 10k at 2:00 AVG?
What damper do you use for your long UT2 sessions, your AT sessions and what SPM do you aim for?

Ergdata can show more info than is needed really on some of the tabs if you configure it - depends on how geeky you want to be and whether it becomes a distraction or not! (I typically have the force curve, wattage, pace, time/distance left, hr and a few others between ergdata and pm5)

On my erg in my location, 120DF is just under 5 on the damper currently.

When I first started, I'd do very gentle rows as that was all I could cope with, but built up the time in the seat; within a month I'd done up to 35mins, 2 months an hour; 4 months 1.5hrs and did my first HM 4.5months after I'd erg'd for the first time. Not setting any records bar my own ones, but just getting the feel for the motion and burning in the muscle memory.

I've been slacking recently, but my average active daily meters is still nearly 9k - I like to do between 45-60mins typically - get my HR up to 170-175 and crack on - Did 14k (67mins) not long ago where hr was at 175 after 25mins and the last 20mins was 181/182; but I was still breathing once per stroke and not panting, so I didn't feel "stressed" at all during it. Theoretically a TR zone training session by HR but I actually felt it was just high end AT by physiological responses. It was a lesson in giving a bit more weight to RPE than what my HR says. (and that I can push to 90% MHRR for long periods, something I think I can thank my hiking for)

I listen to music when I row, helps me get in the zone regardless of the effort of the piece I'm doing - I struggle to settle into a rhythm without it and everything is a bit more inconsistent. Although it can be annoying if my earbuds fall out/get loose midway through a session.

I feel bad when you say that your "slack" is nearly 9k daily. That's crazy.

I like that when you mention RPE to HR. Because, during my "longer" rows, 5k+. Which is long for me, right now atleast. I feel it being very easy when my HR is at 155, z2. Do you suggest me to push the pace just alittle bit, going above 160bpm, or save that for another day?
I guess what I am trying to say with that is; What happens if you push beyond zone2(ut2).. Am I now no longer improving my aerobic base and relaying more on my fast twitch?
As i've read, the long z2 work will help to clear lactate. Sure. But if I push beyond z2, let's say z3. Whats really the difference? Will I now not work on my aerobic base?
I am sorry if that's a stupid question.

[Sakly]

When you say 10k at 2k + 10. Do you mean intervals with 2:00 AVG(based on a 1:50 2k) or tryna keep a nonstop 10k at 2:00 AVG?
What damper do you use for your long UT2 sessions, your AT sessions and what SPM do you aim for?

2k+10 means your 2k pace +10s. If you can hold a 1:50 split for a 2k this would give you 2:00 for the 10k nonstop. But I meant the 10k to be an AT session with lower spm, to focus on technique and stroke power. If you row the 2k with 28-30spm, for the 10k probably 22-24spm would be fine. Recently I did such 10k session at 24spm, felt really good
Better to check drag factor as this is the physical value of the flywheel. Damper is only the mechanical setting of the cover.
I use drag factors from 115 to 130, does not really matter to me. Higher only for short distances at high spm. My 500m and 1k I did on ~150, spm 30-40. For my long steady rows I typically have spm 18-20.
In the beginning higher drag suited me better, as my technique was not at the level as it is now. Now I can get the same splits with 115 as well.

[Elizabeth]

How long will it take you personally to see improvement? Just curious. Improvements in your aerobic base.
I'd be amazed if I could ever achieve running at 4:30/KM Pace meanwhile still being in my UT2-UT1.

I came to rowing with a strong aerobic base, and continue to work on it. UT2 is a good chunk of my training but not all of my training - speed-work also plays an important role in making people faster over time. I'm seeing steady improvements, and have been for a while. It's important to note that I don't test or measure by session or week, I look at progress across a season and the overall trend.

Are you looking to work rowing into a plan that includes other endurance modalities plus CrossFit? Or are you interested in more of a standalone plan focused on improving stamina and/or 2k time, possibly with some weights mixed in? How much time per week are you aiming to train? You've been getting a lot of suggestions for individual training sessions and I'm not completely clear on the bigger picture of what you want a typical training week to look like.

[p_b82]

I think you're getting bogged down in the weeds.

HR/RPE control is important for mitigating symptoms of over-training.

To build endurance and make the adaptations a person needs volume - they (science) implies 45-90 minutes is appropriate for this typically.

The harder you push, the more your body adapts - at the cost of recovery time. UT2/UT1/AT/TR - they all develop aerobic fitness with increasing amounts of recovery needed.

Intervals and high pace work builds strength & aerobic - at the cost of recovery time.

You've got very good sprint conditioning - your 1k effort is high power/fast pace due to your previous focus on intervals/CF.

But in order to understand what your body is doing and how it responds, you need to just do the sessions with the higher duration, and add the volume slowly to your weekly schedule.

If 5k is your longest single distance, set off at a pace you think you can sustain without HR creep - if you get to the end and it's gone from 140-160; you probably went too fast - back it off a touch next time or treat it as a medium/hard session.
As you'll want to increase volume next row, slightly slower split time with an extra 500/750/1000m added to it - was your HR consistent throughout, breathing easy etc - if no, again "too fast"; if yes next session use this pace and add another 500m or 5mins etc.

Test and experiment with different drag factors - how do they affect RPE/HR/Pace
Test and experiment with different stroke rates at the same pace - as above.
How does adding the volume affect your Interval workouts - as above

At some point do a 2kTT see where you're at - keep training; rinse/repeat.

You've set an aim for a 6:40 2k - but first you've got to do an 8min 2k or a 7:30 or a 7:00 etc....

Ultimately throughout all this, you have to enjoy what you're doing - if your mindset and body prefers to do sprints/intervals then keep that as a the focus - add the volume through increasingly longer intervals. If you need variation, do other low impact cardio work on your "easy" sessions instead, keeping the erg for the hard stuff...

You don't have to "min/max" your approach all the time, you do have to enjoy it though!

And to clarify, my 9k active daily = on the days that I row I do nearly 9k; my daily average is only around 2k atm as I don't row every day.
And my slacking comment is due to taking 10 days off in Feb; and another 7 days off this month for different reasons

[Mikec2]

2k+10 means your 2k pace +10s. If you can hold a 1:50 split for a 2k this would give you 2:00 for the 10k nonstop. But I meant the 10k to be an AT session with lower spm, to focus on technique and stroke power. If you row the 2k with 28-30spm, for the 10k probably 22-24spm would be fine. Recently I did such 10k session at 24spm, felt really good
Better to check drag factor as this is the physical value of the flywheel. Damper is only the mechanical setting of the cover.
I use drag factors from 115 to 130, does not really matter to me. Higher only for short distances at high spm. My 500m and 1k I did on ~150, spm 30-40. For my long steady rows I typically have spm 18-20.
In the beginning higher drag suited me better, as my technique was not at the level as it is now. Now I can get the same splits with 115 as well.

I will definitely give this a go aswell and see how it feels. I've got some to try now, i'm excited.
Thanks alot for this information!

I came to rowing with a strong aerobic base, and continue to work on it. UT2 is a good chunk of my training but not all of my training - speed-work also plays an important role in making people faster over time. I'm seeing steady improvements, and have been for a while. It's important to note that I don't test or measure by session or week, I look at progress across a season and the overall trend.

Are you looking to work rowing into a plan that includes other endurance modalities plus CrossFit? Or are you interested in more of a standalone plan focused on improving stamina and/or 2k time, possibly with some weights mixed in? How much time per week are you aiming to train? You've been getting a lot of suggestions for individual training sessions and I'm not completely clear on the bigger picture of what you want a typical training week to look like.

That's awesome. I am inspired.
My plan is to get really goood rowing endurance, because it's always the machine in my crossfit training where I lack, in a metcon workout.
Time is not really something i've got a bar set for. I just went for Mon,wed,Fri cuz it's the days where I focus alot on my leg strength, so I incorperate rowing on these days to get the most of it. Cuz it's both pushing movements. Deadlift/Squat.
I find that Running/C2 Bike erg are equivalent to eachother. Beacuse when I keep high RPM's on the bike, it refers to as running. So if I bike, I am also improving my running at the same time and other way around.

I have indeed got a lot of great advice and inspiration for each and everyone of you, for that I am grate grateful.
The bigger picture for me is to get the most value out of my rowing sessions. To be very fast at longer distances, but at an easy pace, personally. If I can comfortably control a 1:45 split on the rower for a longer distance, like 2k, I'd be very happy.

I think you're getting bogged down in the weeds.

HR/RPE control is important for mitigating symptoms of over-training.

To build endurance and make the adaptations a person needs volume - they (science) implies 45-90 minutes is appropriate for this typically.

The harder you push, the more your body adapts - at the cost of recovery time. UT2/UT1/AT/TR - they all develop aerobic fitness with increasing amounts of recovery needed.

Intervals and high pace work builds strength & aerobic - at the cost of recovery time.

You've got very good sprint conditioning - your 1k effort is high power/fast pace due to your previous focus on intervals/CF.

But in order to understand what your body is doing and how it responds, you need to just do the sessions with the higher duration, and add the volume slowly to your weekly schedule.

If 5k is your longest single distance, set off at a pace you think you can sustain without HR creep - if you get to the end and it's gone from 140-160; you probably went too fast - back it off a touch next time or treat it as a medium/hard session.
As you'll want to increase volume next row, slightly slower split time with an extra 500/750/1000m added to it - was your HR consistent throughout, breathing easy etc - if no, again "too fast"; if yes next session use this pace and add another 500m or 5mins etc.

Test and experiment with different drag factors - how do they affect RPE/HR/Pace
Test and experiment with different stroke rates at the same pace - as above.
How does adding the volume affect your Interval workouts - as above

At some point do a 2kTT see where you're at - keep training; rinse/repeat.

You've set an aim for a 6:40 2k - but first you've got to do an 8min 2k or a 7:30 or a 7:00 etc....

Ultimately throughout all this, you have to enjoy what you're doing - if your mindset and body prefers to do sprints/intervals then keep that as a the focus - add the volume through increasingly longer intervals. If you need variation, do other low impact cardio work on your "easy" sessions instead, keeping the erg for the hard stuff...

You don't have to "min/max" your approach all the time, you do have to enjoy it though!

And to clarify, my 9k active daily = on the days that I row I do nearly 9k; my daily average is only around 2k atm as I don't row every day.
And my slacking comment is due to taking 10 days off in Feb; and another 7 days off this month for different reasons

Thank you so much for this valuable post. It was very easy for me to understand and I got a better idea of it all now.

-------------------------------

I want to thank you all for your help and dedication. It has truly inspired and helped me to understand more about aerobic training and overall. I will re-read this probably a few times and come back and look at.

Also for anyone else in my spot whos trying to learn, this is great valuable information.

One last question would be, have you guys done tests for your exact training zones?(Heart rate zones. 1-5) Is it something worth for me to personally do?

[jamesg]

tests for your exact training zones?

Upto rate 23 is mostly aerobic energy demand; beyond 27 certainly adds anaerobic. If of course you have a good stroke.

[Sakly]

One last question would be, have you guys done tests for your exact training zones? Is it something worth for me to personally do?

Me not.
I started with a 10x500m 1r and changed damper each intervall - 10 - 1 - 9 - 2 and so on to get a feeling for the damper setting/DF.
On the next day I did my first 10k, two days later 100m, 1min and 5k, then next two weeks 1k, 2k, 30min, 10k full effort, HM to set some benchmarks to see were I was (you can see all in the history of my log).
Then Corona crossed my way and I had to reduce massively, no "real" activities for nearly two month, as I had other issues, too. Then started comeback with several 60min rows and chose pace by RPE, heart rate and recovery. This is how I do it until today. Mainly 10k's 60min's and HM's to build base, pace based on feeling with a slight glance on the heart rate.

[iain]

There is an info overload, enough thoughts on here to keep you busy for months!

Apologies if you already understand, but from some of your earlier responses on SPM (ie strokes per min / rating) suggested that you might not understand the C2 USP. The resistance increases with the speed that you work. On the rower, the resistance increases with the cube of the speed of the handle, so pull 10% faster and the resistance increases by a third. the DF (Drag Factor) regulated by moving the DF lever changes the speed required to produce the same resistance, so this is a matter of taste, as someone who is shorter than the average rower but strong, you may find a slightly higher DF works better for you as you have less stroke length in which to accelerate, but it come down to where you can row for 10+ mins at the fastest pace with the lowest RPE. Other than on very short or very long rows very few rowers will change the DF from their norm.

Much of the great advice on here does assume a "normal" rowers level of endurance. So while 2k pace + 10S/500m is slightly below the average user of this forum's 10k pace, it would be tough for most. For you I think tyhat this will take some time to achieve let alone use as an easier session.

Unfortunately it sounds like you have been rowing with sub-optimal stroke for some time. You will have "grooved" a technique which compromises a number of areas of the stroke to find a stroke that works for you. If you change to the recommended stroke, you will probably get slower and find it hurts more while the improvements are made. It sounds like the CF stroke is a sprinting stroke where getting the rate up is the principle aim. Sequencing the stroke should help on longer rows and at lower SPM and should ultimately enable you to do a quicker 2k, but you may find 500m is never quite as quick!

While you are changing your stroke, only add in the harder rowing sessions if needed to maintain your enthusiasm. Pushing hard is the best way to fall back into previous errors and we all get sloppier when hurting! You are right to fear the 4 x 1k, this is one of the toughest sessions and probably best left to when you are getting closer to your all out 2k. It mirrors most of teh mental side of a 2k with each 1k broadly similar to the 500s of a 2k. Timing varies between people, but on average people fingd it a bit slower (maybe 1S/500m) slower average than an all out 2k, as you see above there are exceptions.

What does R18-R20 Mean? Is this Revolutions per min, equal to SPM?
I have never been under 23 SPM I think, and that's how low I'll go for UT2 Work. I prefer high stroke rates but less resistance. Maybe I should try the other way around.

As above find your DF sweet spot and then do all rowing at this for the immediate future. I would recommend going at lower SPMs as it gives you time to concentrate on each area of the stroke in turn. It also allows you to drive hard, but recover before the next stroke. For someone with your presumed muscle fibre mix, for moderate or higher effort rowing (probably even below AT) you will use anaerobic fibres alot. It is just that your aerobic fibres will be able to deal with the waste products in real time so acid won't accumulate. That said, you can go majorly anaerobic (not clearing) even at 20SPM if you put everything into every stroke!

Personally I am not convinced of UT2 work, but I only exercise 3-5 times per week. I like to keep work above 160 BPM (my max is 187) to a minimum, but don't worry for drift into the 150s.The key is that you recover fully before any hard sessions and adjust the longer row intensities accordingly. If you are working fast twitch during the longer rows (normally only becomes significant on slow longer rows after 40min or so) then you may find that you need time to recover from these. If so as above, you need to reduce the intensity of them while your body gets used to them. As for continuous rows or in intervals, it is personal preference. Some people like regular 1-2 min breaks and find that rehydrating and resetting technique helps. But for these rows you should not need the rests to gasp for air.

My 3k PR was probably (according to the Heart rate calculator) a TR+ band.
Reason for this is because, ALWAYS during an endurance workout, where workouts are longer than 7 minutes. I feel just as bad at the 3 minute mark as at the 20 minute. My pulse is way up and I just keep going even tho it hurts so bad.
An example is that I did a 20 minute test on the Concept 2 Bike erg and for max AVG Watts on 20 min, I did 227 avg Watt (Damper 5).
I felt so much pain after 5 minutes that I knew I couldn't keep this up for 20 minutes, but somehow I did. I believe my pulse got to 185 real fast and I didn't recover a bit from that pain during those 20 min.

I will try this, for sure on my next rowing session. 4-1k. Starting at 2:10, 2:07, 2:03 and start at 2:00 for the 1k and see how this feels by slowly accelerating the speed.
When you do such work, is your primary focus that last interval? When you say, going hard on the last. By doing this, seeing new results in your training? Based on feel/speed.

This may be you using more fast twitch than the rest of us. Personally I go through a "crisis" 2-3 min in as my aerobic system gets up to speed and I use more anaerobic than ideal, but then things settle down. That said one coach said that if you don't worry that you aren't going to finish by 40% in you aren't going as fast as you could maintain! Anything 6k and below means that we don't clear anaerobic metabolites much faster than we produce them, so the pain only builds. Fortunately so do the bodies painkillers (endorphins). In the 4-1k the 4k is an integral warm up so the rest is on a body already partly fatigued. Primary focus is completing the session at target pace or quicker. You need to concentrate on the part you are doing, so achieving and maintaining a comparatively "easy" pace is the initial focus. The 3k feels long and you may find you need to push a bit (at least after a few attempts have sharpened the pace a bit), legs will be heavy. 2k changed focus for a controlled speed, I would expect you should be into 180s by the end. Then the 1k is whatever you have left and depends how you feel at the start. Will be slower than a standalone 2k, but probably comparable to a 3k if you have paced the others right.

I am not 100% sure what my SPM looks like, really. I always keep damper 4-5. <1000m (5) and >1000m (4)
I will check my SPM today when I row.

Is it worth for me to get my bloodwork done for my exact zones?
Or should I keep 180 Minus age for my zone 2?

Not convinced on bloodwork myself unless you are competing seriously. There is a lot of guess work that the experts ignore. 6mmol for one is like 10mmol for others and responses vary between protocols. Basically lab tech needs to work with you for it to be really meaningful, but I expect howls from some participants who live by them!

Sorry for the long response and congratulations if you have got this far. Lots of thoughts to discuss.

Best of luck with your training.

- IAin