How can I pr my 2k Row [Rookie][Aerobic][Endurance]

[Mikec2]

Hi Guys!

I have recently got very interested in the aerobic training and I want to improve it.
Short history and present being is that I do crossfit 6 times a week, usually 9 sessions a week.

For a very long time I have been just been pushing as hard as I can and I have really never understood why or what the purpose of the workout was. Despite this I can say I that I have improved alot since I started, but not in knowledge, as much as I could have obviously. Now I have come to terms with myself that every workout I do, needs to have a purpose. Whats the intent of this? I can safely say that I am decent and fast. But I have no clue what I am doing. I have dropped my ego completely and I am ready to learn.
My endurance is way off my maximum speed. I lack stamina.

Recently I've started incorperating alot of zone 2 work.
Mondays, AM, I do Rowing. PM I do cycling, 60 minutes at zone 2 intensity. [Double session]
Tuesdays, AM, I do SKI. PM I do Swimming, 60 Minutes at about zone 2 intensity. [Double session]
Wednesdays, I do Rowing or Running zone 2. [Double session]
Thursdays, I do cycling 60-90min zone 2.
Fridays, I do Rowing about 30 Min zone 2.
Saturdays I do running about 40 Min zone 2.

I want to build a very strong foundation. But I don't know how. I have read and watched alot of videos of Chris Hinsaw, but I really don't understand what kind of intensity I should aim for each workout. How I should be thinking when I approach each rowing/running workout.

Should I spend most of my time in zone 2 or above?

I have now decided to become very good at the rower, I want to get as good as I possibly can with every workout I do. I am ready to learn everything bout it. Therefore I am here, seeking help from you guys.

My PR on 1k Row is avg 1:40 per 500m.
My goal is to have an avg of 1:40 per 500m on a 2k trial. What would be the most efficient for me to train for this? Bang for the buck, so to speak.

Thank you for reading and I appreciate any help I can get. I really want to get into working on my weaknesses.

[mitchel674]

I'm exhausted just looking at your schedule. When do you do your weight training in that mix? Are you getting enough rest?

It does look like you have a wide variety or cardiac exercises. While this can certainly be a great way to approach general fitness, it will not get you great results in any one exercise. It appears you only row 3 days per week and with limited time on the rower. If your goal is a particular rowing achievement (2k), I would suggest you follow one of the available plans for that target distance.

[p_b82]

Hi and welcome,

If 2k is what you are focussing on, I'd suggest you do some searching for 2k specific training plans there's quite a few out there as it's an international distance.

Paul's law - a rough guideline pace predictor - suggests that your 3:20 1K would equate to a 7min 2K (1:45/500m); how close are you to that, or are you already below it?

It's also worth noting that a 6:40 2k would put you top 500 of the c2 rankings (regardless of age group) for this season; that's a pretty elite level aim.

[Tsnor]

Get a workable training plan first.

To get the best 2K time long term, major zone 2 aerobic focus, 1 or 2 days/week of intensity. Weights. Rowing technique. Keep steadily upping zone 2 duration at a rate you can handle.

To get the best 2K time short term (6 weeks or less) do 3 intense rowing sessions a week (intervals or hard 20-40 minute pieces), do weights on 1 or two of the hard rowing days. Fill in remaining days with rest days and zone 2 work.

To build a training plan
1. watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I to get the concept. Think you know this from your zone 2 focus.
2. See how you build a plan to mix recovery/rest with hard sessions with zone 2 work. https://youtu.be/-Wk0f-Bsw3E This is a cycling plan, your are watching to see how work is layered into a plan.

Most of the 2K training plans out there have a short term, higher intensity focus. Not a bad thing. If you are thinking years of performance growth then the "1-2 days intensity with lots of zone 2" approach will get you higher performance than repeating the intensity focused plans. Short term nothing beats the 2K plans for prepping you for a PB.

[iain]

More info is required for anything less generic than the above. So PBs at other distances, average ratings for these distances, other sports you have focussed on, height, weight and age. How active you are when not training and what gets in the way of successful training? (ie shifts, busy work periods, lack of sleep etc.) Timescale to hit the target. Without that we are just guessing.

That said, 3:20 1k is pretty good.

[Mikec2]

I'm exhausted just looking at your schedule. When do you do your weight training in that mix? Are you getting enough rest?

It does look like you have a wide variety or cardiac exercises. While this can certainly be a great way to approach general fitness, it will not get you great results in any one exercise. It appears you only row 3 days per week and with limited time on the rower. If your goal is a particular rowing achievement (2k), I would suggest you follow one of the available plans for that target distance.

Yes I do weight training in that mix. So usually i'd start my days of with 2-3 Hours weight training prior to cardio, row, cycle, run, etc.
I'd say my Mon-Wed is 5 hours gym(inc cardio). Thursdays would be 2 hours, zone 2, no weights. Friday-Saturday about 3-4 hours. Weights+cardio.

I workout alot, it's literally all I do. So when I don't workout, I constantly try to eat and rest.
I will definitely check out a plan for 2k, thank you.

Hi and welcome,

If 2k is what you are focussing on, I'd suggest you do some searching for 2k specific training plans there's quite a few out there as it's an international distance.

Paul's law - a rough guideline pace predictor - suggests that your 3:20 1K would equate to a 7min 2K (1:45/500m); how close are you to that, or are you already below it?

It's also worth noting that a 6:40 2k would put you top 500 of the c2 rankings (regardless of age group) for this season; that's a pretty elite level aim.

Thank you!

I am sure that I can't pull a 1:45 avg on 2k. Maybe 1:50-1:52.
My pr on 3k is approx 1:56 avg. I did it a while ago, but I stupidly enough didn't record the results. But I remember somewhat 1:56-1:57.

That's awesome. I really do enjoy challenges. I want to learn how to incorperate the most efficent training for my time at the rower. To get that slow twitch boosted for long term. I want to have great endurance.

I will definitely check out that 2k plan, thank you!

Get a workable training plan first.

To get the best 2K time long term, major zone 2 aerobic focus, 1 or 2 days/week of intensity. Weights. Rowing technique. Keep steadily upping zone 2 duration at a rate you can handle.

To get the best 2K time short term (6 weeks or less) do 3 intense rowing sessions a week (intervals or hard 20-40 minute pieces), do weights on 1 or two of the hard rowing days. Fill in remaining days with rest days and zone 2 work.

To build a training plan
1. watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I to get the concept. Think you know this from your zone 2 focus.
2. See how you build a plan to mix recovery/rest with hard sessions with zone 2 work. https://youtu.be/-Wk0f-Bsw3E This is a cycling plan, your are watching to see how work is layered into a plan.

Most of the 2K training plans out there have a short term, higher intensity focus. Not a bad thing. If you are thinking years of performance growth then the "1-2 days intensity with lots of zone 2" approach will get you higher performance than repeating the intensity focused plans. Short term nothing beats the 2K plans for prepping you for a PB.

Interesting. As mentioned above, I do alot of weight training. Always prior to rowing. I always end my sessions with Row/run/ski.

I really do like that "years of performance growth" because, my goal is indeed a 2k PR. But that's really not the only thing I want. I want it as a result of great endurance training. So I am really not in a rush to get there in 6 weeks. If it would take me 1 year I am happy, but I still want to use my time in the gym in the most efficent way for endurance improvement. I hope you understand what I mean by that. If that makes me better at 5k at the same time, I'd love that.

When you say, 1-2 days intensity with lot of zone 2, do you mean 1-2 times a week where I push the speed? Ex. Practising at 1:40 avg speed with slow recovery instead of complete rest b/t sets?

I will check your videos now, thank you so much for the info!

More info is required for anything less generic than the above. So PBs at other distances, average ratings for these distances, other sports you have focussed on, height, weight and age. How active you are when not training and what gets in the way of successful training? (ie shifts, busy work periods, lack of sleep etc.) Timescale to hit the target. Without that we are just guessing.

That said, 3:20 1k is pretty good.

Crossfit is the only sport i've done. I started in aug 2017. I went from a computer geek(60ish kg) to now 78kg. When I started, I did 2-3 sessions a day for 4 years ish, then I cut it down because it was to much, I didn't recover properly. Now I stick to 1-2.

I am 5'6(1.67).
approx 78kg.
25 y/o.
At this moment I am out of work. So time isn't an issue. But if I do work, it's usually shifts.
Strength:
Squat 3x160kg
Deadlift 190kg
Militarypress 87.5kg
Rower:
1k avg 1:40 per 500m.
2k [Unknown] I have to try a trial. I'd guess about 1:50-1:52 avg.
3k about 1:56 avg.
5k Unknown.
In order for me to row at zone 2, i'd have to keep approx 2:09-2:10 pace.

When I don't train, I relax and recover as much as I can. Basically all I do and care bout is improving my training.

[Sakly]

Your main disadvantage to get really fast is your size. Looking at your training volume and your stats you are quite strong and probably also very fit, but height is what gives main advantage as you can pull a long stroke.
Same weight for me, but 177cm, much training done before (not as much as you, but also very fit and strong - also not as strong as you) - I could get a 6:58 2k first try. 5k was 18:25, when I remember right.
You have to work harder to get there compared to taller guys, but it's not impossible

[iain]

Your distance pace drops off very rapidly at 10-12S / 500m / doubling. Some of that might be experience, a 2k needs good pacing and the ability to endure pain not experienced in most other sports! So many underperform initially at longer distances. That said, most such people drop off above 500m rather than above 1k. This might be because you have a lower portion of slow twitch muscle, although you can improve that somewhat by converting type 2A to 2B. Your current training concentrates on strength rather than endurance so this may have lead to the imbalance. A 2k is 80% aerobic so the improvement will some from increasing your endurance.

Personally I would try and do longer sessions. After a layoff I have lost a lot of fitness. I try and do one middle distance interval session per week. (vary between 4k, 4' rest, 3k, 3' rest, 2k, 2' rest and 1k starting at modest pace and upping the pace 2S/500m for the 2nd interval, moderately pushing the 2k and trying to get the best time possible for the last. Then 3k, 2.5k, 2k with 4' rest between each, 4 x 2k with 4' rest and 5 x 1.5k with 4' rest between each). THe key is to start at a readily achievable pace and only speed up when you knhow you will finish with the last interval as fast as possible (basically a variant of Pete Plan). Then I also do the Pete 5k intervals although I extend the easier sessions. So each is done with only 1' rest between each. Start at similar pace to the longer intervals as they get much harder due to partial recovery. I do 12 x 600m, 9 x 750m, 7 x 900m and 6 x 1k.

The idea is that each cycle you take the average of the last time you did the same session (usually faster than before due to the faster last) for all but the last. Initially you might like to go a bit quicker on the penultimate or even 3rd rom last session if you are finding it easier.

I suspect that these will seem very long sessions. Good, that means you go very slowly. Maybe even 2:15 pace to start with, it will soon get faster. the 4 weeks between sessions should mean that you can getter faster without making it harder.

If you get a chance to do other rowing sessions, try and do 30min+ atleast 10S/500m slower than the intervals and preferably 15S.

Personally given the longer focus I would ignore 2k paced training for several months while you improve your fitness. Most 2k plans are shorter term.

Best of luck.

Iain

[KeithT]

Lots of good advice already given but one additional point of view. I discovered rowing from getting into CF in my late 40s. I found I was good at rowing and became a CrossFitter that did some extra rowing and competitions. Over the years I changed and became a rower that also does some CF as part of training. CF is a great way to build some strength and fitness but I have always found it lacked the pure cardio type of work that you seemed to have already added (a lot of it). However, to get better at rowing you need to row more and make it the primary cardio exercise. Then you can also train different energy systems with intervals. To me the biggest key to hitting a certain pace at a certain distance is to spend your intense rowing days at that pace (or close) so you get comfortable with what it feels like. Anyway, keep asking questions and keep us posted on your progress.

[Mikec2]

Your main disadvantage to get really fast is your size. Looking at your training volume and your stats you are quite strong and probably also very fit, but height is what gives main advantage as you can pull a long stroke.
Same weight for me, but 177cm, much training done before (not as much as you, but also very fit and strong - also not as strong as you) - I could get a 6:58 2k first try. 5k was 18:25, when I remember right.
You have to work harder to get there compared to taller guys, but it's not impossible

That is true. I am short. Altough i'd say I am powerful due to my explosive training, weightlifting, etc. I believe that being short surtenly gives me a disadvantage on the rower, but it's not an excuse. I surely should be able to pull high numbers for longer, if I train correctly.

That's crazy good paces. Impressive, well done. I'd love to achieve that.

Your distance pace drops off very rapidly at 10-12S / 500m / doubling. Some of that might be experience, a 2k needs good pacing and the ability to endure pain not experienced in most other sports! So many underperform initially at longer distances. That said, most such people drop off above 500m rather than above 1k. This might be because you have a lower portion of slow twitch muscle, although you can improve that somewhat by converting type 2A to 2B. Your current training concentrates on strength rather than endurance so this may have lead to the imbalance. A 2k is 80% aerobic so the improvement will some from increasing your endurance.

Personally I would try and do longer sessions. After a layoff I have lost a lot of fitness. I try and do one middle distance interval session per week. (vary between 4k, 4' rest, 3k, 3' rest, 2k, 2' rest and 1k starting at modest pace and upping the pace 2S/500m for the 2nd interval, moderately pushing the 2k and trying to get the best time possible for the last. Then 3k, 2.5k, 2k with 4' rest between each, 4 x 2k with 4' rest and 5 x 1.5k with 4' rest between each). THe key is to start at a readily achievable pace and only speed up when you knhow you will finish with the last interval as fast as possible (basically a variant of Pete Plan). Then I also do the Pete 5k intervals although I extend the easier sessions. So each is done with only 1' rest between each. Start at similar pace to the longer intervals as they get much harder due to partial recovery. I do 12 x 600m, 9 x 750m, 7 x 900m and 6 x 1k.

The idea is that each cycle you take the average of the last time you did the same session (usually faster than before due to the faster last) for all but the last. Initially you might like to go a bit quicker on the penultimate or even 3rd rom last session if you are finding it easier.

I suspect that these will seem very long sessions. Good, that means you go very slowly. Maybe even 2:15 pace to start with, it will soon get faster. the 4 weeks between sessions should mean that you can getter faster without making it harder.

If you get a chance to do other rowing sessions, try and do 30min+ atleast 10S/500m slower than the intervals and preferably 15S.

Personally given the longer focus I would ignore 2k paced training for several months while you improve your fitness. Most 2k plans are shorter term.

Best of luck.

Iain

That's quite the volume, impressive. When you say, 4k, 3k, 2k, 1k starting at "Modest" Pace, what do you mean by modest pace? Is that converted to a heartrate zone or maybe a 5k pace? I'd assume moderate would mean something above 20 min pacing? Also when you mention "upping the pace" you go 2 seconds faster for each interval I assume, as the duration of work shortens?
Would this example be correct?:
4k - 2:00 Pace
3k - 1:58
2k - 1:56
1k - 1:54 (or as u said, best time possible?)
I am sorry for misunderstanding, just trying to learn.

As you mentioned, "A 2k is 80 Aerobic" is the biggest reason why I want to improve my aerobic fitness. I know I can go fast for 1-3 minutes, very fast. But it's not my goal to go fast for a short duration, because I can do that. My goal is to go fast for a long duration.(6-60 Min) Now, what fast means is individual ofcourse, but fast for me would be to control a 1:40 avg pace at a steady heart rate, where I could get off after 6 minutes and be in control.

Lots of good advice already given but one additional point of view. I discovered rowing from getting into CF in my late 40s. I found I was good at rowing and became a CrossFitter that did some extra rowing and competitions. Over the years I changed and became a rower that also does some CF as part of training. CF is a great way to build some strength and fitness but I have always found it lacked the pure cardio type of work that you seemed to have already added (a lot of it). However, to get better at rowing you need to row more and make it the primary cardio exercise. Then you can also train different energy systems with intervals. To me the biggest key to hitting a certain pace at a certain distance is to spend your intense rowing days at that pace (or close) so you get comfortable with what it feels like. Anyway, keep asking questions and keep us posted on your progress.

That is true. Crossfit generally lacks that slowtwitch training, (raising my hand). I'm all for "No pain no gain" I say that because I now know that's not the most efficent way. I am going back to basics now and this time I wanna do it right.

I figured that out because, everytime a workout would include a rower i'd open at a steady pace, about my 3k pace(1:55-1:57), but after 2-3 minutes coming back on the rower, I'd be on 2:05, thats nearly my zone 2 pace. That's to early in a workout to be that tired. I was already so blown up that I had to pace waaaay back and get a slower overall time.



This is what my running session for a 5k would look like. if you can't see by the image that I was having a bit of a rough time, I can tell you I thought after 6 minutes that my heart would stop. I have not measured my max HR but I believe its somewhat close to 195.

I am not afraid of training that hurts, and I think that has been my major problem. Always going hard.

So as I mentioned in my first post is that my goal was to pr my 2k on a rower. That is true, but the idea behind it Is that I see 2k as an endurance distance and very much used in crossfit.

My most prior goal is to increase my endurance, so as a result of that, I can eventually reach my goal on 2k. I guess what I am trying to say is that I want a high standard pacing.

Therefor maybe a 2k Plan isn't the most efficent to building a very strong base for myself? Or what do you guys think?

I saw that youtube video that Tsnor linked in the comment, on TEDx talk. That the best endurance athletes spend 85% of their training at an easy pace, which would mean zone 2, I assume?

What I hear frequently looking at videos and reading about aerobic is these terms:
Slow - Intensity
Moderate - Intensity
High - Intensity

Would Slow mean, zone 2?
Moderate - About your 5k Pace? zone 3-4?
High - Zone 4-5?

Would it be efficent for me to keep do my rowing following:
Mondays: - doing 1:40 pace intervals with long slow stride recovery. (Example: 250m 1:40 pace - 750m Recovery - 7 sets)(NO rest)
Wednesday: 7k+ Row - Zone 2
Friday: 7k+ Row - Zone 2
That would mean I keep most of my training at a lower intensity, more volume, but also recruiting that speed I have as a goal to achieve.
In between these sessions, keep doing zone 2 biking,running and swimming(60 min ish).

It is worth getting blood work (vo2 max?) to figure out my exact training heart rate zones?
Right now what I follow is, 180-age (155bpm). I do my 60 mins at this HR and I feel like I can talk to people meanwhile training. But its not super comfortable.

I havn't done any max pulse tests yet. But what i've seen as maximum on my garmin is 195ish.
Sleep pulse: 42-48

I wanna thank you guys for taking your time to help me. I feel stupid, but I have got to ask in order to learn.

[p_b82]

rowing tends to talk about slightly different training zones than pure HR (http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/ ... calculator).

When you did your 1k what was the average rate you were holding? 1:40split is 350w so working out your wattmin (350/spm_rate) will give you an idea of the force you should keep using at the lower rates in the UT2 zone.

You've obviously got the CV fitness already, so when you slow your rate down, you should be able to keep the higher Wattmin figure to control your HR that way - without losing the force you need to maintain to complete your 2k at this pace.

So assuming your 1k was at 30spm, you'd get 11.6Wmin and you'd then be looking to do your UT2 rows between

1:58.9@r18 (11.6x18 = 208w) -> 1:54.7@r20 (11.6x20 = 232w).

ideally that pace would put your HR 55-70% range for your "easy" volume days - obviously adjust based on your actual spm rate.

My CV system is sadly not good enough for me to stick to this, nor is my strength anywhere close to your capabilities, nor do I train at anywhere close to your volume - so I'm only talking from a theoretical perspective, not my own actual experience...

[Elizabeth]

Is your Garmin just the watch or a chest strap as well? Chest straps are more accurate, so I'm curious.

There are a lot of people who get value from looking at wattage and force per stroke. I don't know my stats there and have been pretty successful just focusing on heart rate and pace. Most of my training is easy and rate-capped. Someone already linked the Free Spirits calculator, which will give you your bands. I'm at 60-75 minutes of UT2 of some sort most days, frequently rowing but also sometimes running or cycling as well. It takes about 10 minutes for my heart to come up, so I'll often start out around 2k+27 and then adjust up or down depending on where my heart rate lands that day.

Medium for me is also heart rate capped, in a UT1 zone.

Hard is just hard. If I have an idea of how I should pace based off of 2k or 5k time, I'll go that route. Obviously you will develop a better feel with more hard training under your belt. At first, aim for sustainably tough, and then try to bring it in hard at the end.

[Sakly]

That is true. I am short. Altough i'd say I am powerful due to my explosive training, weightlifting, etc. I believe that being short surtenly gives me a disadvantage on the rower, but it's not an excuse. I surely should be able to pull high numbers for longer, if I train correctly.

That's crazy good paces. Impressive, well done. I'd love to achieve that.

Thx, these paces were from my beginning, when I started rowing first time last year in January and tried to set some benchmark for me.
Good mindset, body stats are no excuse. Same for me, 177cm is not very tall for a rower, so I also have to compete against much taller guys. I take the challenge.

Some days ago I reached 2 million meters on the rower for this season. Last few month typically 200k+/month with ~4 sessions on the rower beside my 3 gym sessions. At least 3 of the sessions are slow steady state, sometimes all of them. Slow steady state means 70-80% of max heart rate for me. And it means that I can properly recover from them and the RPE level stays low. So I do not only consider heart rate to control this.
Based on this training I could improve my numbers like given in my signature. 5k is the latest update, went from 18:25 - dropped dead from the rower with HR 185 - to 17:40, relaxed after 2min and a heart rate of 173 at the end of the row. 17:40 is a 1:46 pace for 5k.
As I lack strength and explosiveness the shorter stuff (.5, 1k) is not really my game, but even there I could improve. For the 2k my goal is to get below 6:40 and I am convinced to get there in the next few weeks.

Long story short: cv system needs time to adapt. If you put in the slow steady work, you will see results.

[iain]

I try and do one middle distance interval session per week. (vary between 4k, 4' rest, 3k, 3' rest, 2k, 2' rest and 1k starting at modest pace and upping the pace 2S/500m for the 2nd interval, moderately pushing the 2k and trying to get the best time possible for the last.

When you say, 4k, 3k, 2k, 1k starting at "Modest" Pace, what do you mean by modest pace? Is that converted to a heartrate zone or maybe a 5k pace? I'd assume moderate would mean something above 20 min pacing? Also when you mention "upping the pace" you go 2 seconds faster for each interval I assume, as the duration of work shortens?
Would this example be correct?:
4k - 2:00 Pace
3k - 1:58
2k - 1:56
1k - 1:54 (or as u said, best time possible?)

My goal is to go fast for a long duration.(6-60 Min) Now, what fast means is individual ofcourse, but fast for me would be to control a 1:40 avg pace at a steady heart rate, where I could get off after 6 minutes and be in control.

Sorry for being unclear. In rowing when people say 5k pace they mean the average pace that you could do in an all out 5k. That is at or a little above your anaerobic threshold so far from comfortable, top of zone 3 and into 4. Given top of 3 is "where most people want to stop", that is NOT moderate. I start the 4-1k a little slower the pace I can do a 10k at, although I appreciate that you may not have such a time. Given the drop off in your faster paces and that you may have never gone that far, I would start at 2:10 pace, if it is easy (say HR significantly below 170) after 2k at that pace you can start to speed up a little. But the drop in pace should be from much slower ratings hardly moving when recovering up the slide.

Not sure how your 3k PR went, but if you were lying on the floor shattered at the end having done 3k at 1:56, then you are not going to be in a fit state to get faster if you have done 4k at 2:00. While p_b82 is doing the normal calculations for an established rower (where we are all endurance focussed), I think this should be an aspiration for now. I cannot maintain R18 let alone R20 for any distance without going well into Zone 3 with my usual stroke and I find an extra 5% work per stroke in an all out 2k or less all out trial. You need to build the capilliaries etc. to support the use of a high proportion of your muscle fibres for a significant period. If most of those fibres are fast twitch, you will currently only be able to deal with the acid from a small proportion at a time at present. Moderate rowing (zone 2) should bring on a bit of sweat, but be sustainable for >30min.

As for the progression, if you do 2:09 on the first, I would expect 2:07 on the second (by then HR into 170s and legs feeling sore), then accelerate more rapidly, maybe 2:03 for the 2k, but starting at 2:05 and slowly accelerating each 500 (never all out). Then I would be disappointed if you weren't significantly sub 2:00 on the 1k, probably start at 2:00 pace and push the second half with a full on sprint for the last 250.

The one thing you have not told us is your rating. Ultimately to hit 1:40 pace for a 2k you may have to go up to quite a rating, but that is personal. Height can be misleading. I am 5ft 11, but I have an unusually long neck (so same as a 5ft 9 at the shoulders) and short legs (only part of the length of the body is used). So my "natural" stroke is a similar length to the average 5ft 6 woman. Despite that I prefer lower ratings and have never exceeded 31 average for a 2k.That said I have never been sub 7 either (started as a very unfit 40'd). rating involves a trade off of breathing rate and power per stroke and we all have to find our sweet spot.

HTH

Iain

[Mikec2]

rowing tends to talk about slightly different training zones than pure HR (http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/ ... calculator).

When you did your 1k what was the average rate you were holding? 1:40split is 350w so working out your wattmin (350/spm_rate) will give you an idea of the force you should keep using at the lower rates in the UT2 zone.

You've obviously got the CV fitness already, so when you slow your rate down, you should be able to keep the higher Wattmin figure to control your HR that way - without losing the force you need to maintain to complete your 2k at this pace.

So assuming your 1k was at 30spm, you'd get 11.6Wmin and you'd then be looking to do your UT2 rows between

1:58.9@r18 (11.6x18 = 208w) -> 1:54.7@r20 (11.6x20 = 232w).

ideally that pace would put your HR 55-70% range for your "easy" volume days - obviously adjust based on your actual spm rate.

My CV system is sadly not good enough for me to stick to this, nor is my strength anywhere close to your capabilities, nor do I train at anywhere close to your volume - so I'm only talking from a theoretical perspective, not my own actual experience...

Thanks for that link, Never seen this before.
I remember doing this 1k trial that I went 300m Fast opener(sub 1:40) - 400m "recovery" at my predicted average pace that I thought I could manage to finish the trial at. For the last 300m I went hammer mode and did what I could.

I am not sure.. I only noted my avg time per 500m. But I believe I kept about 30-32 SPM. I remember using Damper 5.
When you say Force at ut2 zone, what do you mean by Force?
Rate = SPM?

When I do my (Zone2) rows, I keep the damper at around 3-4. If I go below 2:08 avg, my hr will go above 155.
According to this calculator: Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 129 bpm to 151 bpm with a mean of 140 bpm.
I did put a max HR of 195 - Resting 48.
I use to follow 180 Minus Age(25) (155).

If i'd keep a ~1:59 Pace, we'd be lookin at 160-165+ HR, for sure.
Should I bump up the damper and go slower SPM?
Also, should I stick with 70%(151 bpm) according to the calculator?
155 HR for me feels sorta relaxed, I can talk and I barely sweat. Feels like I could go forever.
Thanks alot for your comment!

Is your Garmin just the watch or a chest strap as well? Chest straps are more accurate, so I'm curious.

There are a lot of people who get value from looking at wattage and force per stroke. I don't know my stats there and have been pretty successful just focusing on heart rate and pace. Most of my training is easy and rate-capped. Someone already linked the Free Spirits calculator, which will give you your bands. I'm at 60-75 minutes of UT2 of some sort most days, frequently rowing but also sometimes running or cycling as well. It takes about 10 minutes for my heart to come up, so I'll often start out around 2k+27 and then adjust up or down depending on where my heart rate lands that day.

Medium for me is also heart rate capped, in a UT1 zone.

Hard is just hard. If I have an idea of how I should pace based off of 2k or 5k time, I'll go that route. Obviously you will develop a better feel with more hard training under your belt. At first, aim for sustainably tough, and then try to bring it in hard at the end.

I use both watch and strap if I run. But when I do rowing, I connect my strap to the rower (no watch).

When you train alot at your UT2, do you feel like your pacing increases and your HR stays the same? With that I mean, do you feel like you're getting faster without working harder?

From what I read, the body will adapt. Is that neccessarely true from your experience? I am just curious.
Thanks alot!

That is true. I am short. Altough i'd say I am powerful due to my explosive training, weightlifting, etc. I believe that being short surtenly gives me a disadvantage on the rower, but it's not an excuse. I surely should be able to pull high numbers for longer, if I train correctly.

That's crazy good paces. Impressive, well done. I'd love to achieve that.

Thx, these paces were from my beginning, when I started rowing first time last year in January and tried to set some benchmark for me.
Good mindset, body stats are no excuse. Same for me, 177cm is not very tall for a rower, so I also have to compete against much taller guys. I take the challenge.

Some days ago I reached 2 million meters on the rower for this season. Last few month typically 200k+/month with ~4 sessions on the rower beside my 3 gym sessions. At least 3 of the sessions are slow steady state, sometimes all of them. Slow steady state means 70-80% of max heart rate for me. And it means that I can properly recover from them and the RPE level stays low. So I do not only consider heart rate to control this.
Based on this training I could improve my numbers like given in my signature. 5k is the latest update, went from 18:25 - dropped dead from the rower with HR 185 - to 17:40, relaxed after 2min and a heart rate of 173 at the end of the row. 17:40 is a 1:46 pace for 5k.
As I lack strength and explosiveness the shorter stuff (.5, 1k) is not really my game, but even there I could improve. For the 2k my goal is to get below 6:40 and I am convinced to get there in the next few weeks.

Long story short: cv system needs time to adapt. If you put in the slow steady work, you will see results.

I am amazed when you say that these paces were achieved from your beginning. That's so good.
I've been at it for 6 years now, but not just rowing. Crossfit overall, so I would have to "master" every moment. Which has consumed alot of time and dedication. But since I know every moment now with closed eyes I am back to basics, rower and endurance.

200k in a month.. That's more than x3 in volume what I do now. Before this, I did barely 5k a week. Now I am at roughly 15k/60k a month.
That's nuts. I really gotta get the meters in.

I am very amazed once again by your results. That's mad impressive. I really want to start improving aswell. Good job.

When you say atleast 3 of your sessions are slow, can you give an example what it would look like, just constant rowing for a specific meter/time?
If that 4th session would be a harder pacing, what would that look like in volume / intensity? Intervals with recovery, etc.

I will do. For sure.
I know by now that I should do longer rowing, slower.
Any tips of what I should keep in mind when I progress, increase time, meters, etc?
Or just keep rowing for long at UT2 repeatedly?

How would you program me if I row:
Mondays, Wednesdays and fridays.
What would you recommend that I do in terms of volume?

An easy thing is just "Hey follow this program, it will make you better". But I'd have no clue what I am doing or know the reason behind it. If I can figure this out with your guys help, I can start to develop my "own" program, and advance for the better.
Thanks alot for your comment!

I try and do one middle distance interval session per week. (vary between 4k, 4' rest, 3k, 3' rest, 2k, 2' rest and 1k starting at modest pace and upping the pace 2S/500m for the 2nd interval, moderately pushing the 2k and trying to get the best time possible for the last.

When you say, 4k, 3k, 2k, 1k starting at "Modest" Pace, what do you mean by modest pace? Is that converted to a heartrate zone or maybe a 5k pace? I'd assume moderate would mean something above 20 min pacing? Also when you mention "upping the pace" you go 2 seconds faster for each interval I assume, as the duration of work shortens?
Would this example be correct?:
4k - 2:00 Pace
3k - 1:58
2k - 1:56
1k - 1:54 (or as u said, best time possible?)

My goal is to go fast for a long duration.(6-60 Min) Now, what fast means is individual ofcourse, but fast for me would be to control a 1:40 avg pace at a steady heart rate, where I could get off after 6 minutes and be in control.

Sorry for being unclear. In rowing when people say 5k pace they mean the average pace that you could do in an all out 5k. That is at or a little above your anaerobic threshold so far from comfortable, top of zone 3 and into 4. Given top of 3 is "where most people want to stop", that is NOT moderate. I start the 4-1k a little slower the pace I can do a 10k at, although I appreciate that you may not have such a time. Given the drop off in your faster paces and that you may have never gone that far, I would start at 2:10 pace, if it is easy (say HR significantly below 170) after 2k at that pace you can start to speed up a little. But the drop in pace should be from much slower ratings hardly moving when recovering up the slide.

Not sure how your 3k PR went, but if you were lying on the floor shattered at the end having done 3k at 1:56, then you are not going to be in a fit state to get faster if you have done 4k at 2:00. While p_b82 is doing the normal calculations for an established rower (where we are all endurance focussed), I think this should be an aspiration for now. I cannot maintain R18 let alone R20 for any distance without going well into Zone 3 with my usual stroke and I find an extra 5% work per stroke in an all out 2k or less all out trial. You need to build the capilliaries etc. to support the use of a high proportion of your muscle fibres for a significant period. If most of those fibres are fast twitch, you will currently only be able to deal with the acid from a small proportion at a time at present. Moderate rowing (zone 2) should bring on a bit of sweat, but be sustainable for >30min.

As for the progression, if you do 2:09 on the first, I would expect 2:07 on the second (by then HR into 170s and legs feeling sore), then accelerate more rapidly, maybe 2:03 for the 2k, but starting at 2:05 and slowly accelerating each 500 (never all out). Then I would be disappointed if you weren't significantly sub 2:00 on the 1k, probably start at 2:00 pace and push the second half with a full on sprint for the last 250.

The one thing you have not told us is your rating. Ultimately to hit 1:40 pace for a 2k you may have to go up to quite a rating, but that is personal. Height can be misleading. I am 5ft 11, but I have an unusually long neck (so same as a 5ft 9 at the shoulders) and short legs (only part of the length of the body is used). So my "natural" stroke is a similar length to the average 5ft 6 woman. Despite that I prefer lower ratings and have never exceeded 31 average for a 2k.That said I have never been sub 7 either (started as a very unfit 40'd). rating involves a trade off of breathing rate and power per stroke and we all have to find our sweet spot.

HTH

Iain

Don't be sorry. It's just that I don't understand every term yet. I am trying to. Thanks alot for explaining further.

What does R18-R20 Mean? Is this Revolutions per min, equal to SPM?
I have never been under 23 SPM I think, and that's how low I'll go for UT2 Work. I prefer high stroke rates but less resistance. Maybe I should try the other way around.

My 3k PR was probably (according to the Heart rate calculator) a TR+ band.
Reason for this is because, ALWAYS during an endurance workout, where workouts are longer than 7 minutes. I feel just as bad at the 3 minute mark as at the 20 minute. My pulse is way up and I just keep going even tho it hurts so bad.
An example is that I did a 20 minute test on the Concept 2 Bike erg and for max AVG Watts on 20 min, I did 227 avg Watt (Damper 5).
I felt so much pain after 5 minutes that I knew I couldn't keep this up for 20 minutes, but somehow I did. I believe my pulse got to 185 real fast and I didn't recover a bit from that pain during those 20 min.

I will try this, for sure on my next rowing session. 4-1k. Starting at 2:10, 2:07, 2:03 and start at 2:00 for the 1k and see how this feels by slowly accelerating the speed.
When you do such work, is your primary focus that last interval? When you say, going hard on the last. By doing this, seeing new results in your training? Based on feel/speed.

I am not 100% sure what my SPM looks like, really. I always keep damper 4-5. <1000m (5) and >1000m (4)
I will check my SPM today when I row.
Thank you for your comment!

Is it worth for me to get my bloodwork done for my exact zones?
Or should I keep 180 Minus age for my zone 2?

Thanks!