New (Old) rower

[Jhweigel]

March 12, 2023

I just recently signed up for this forum (today). I am not sure where to post my questions, so I hope I don't get it in the wrong place. I am fairly new to rowing, having just started rowing on December 1st, 2022. I have rowed every day since then, about 100 days since 12/1/23. I do not have a Concept 2 machine. I bought a Sunny Fitness machine on Amazon. I like it a lot for my needs, except for the monitor, which lacks a lot of the C2 functionality. I did modify my machine a little to put C2 straps onto the foot plates. It works a lot better for me than the velcro straps.

I am a male, 78 years old, with no prior rowing or other athletic experience. I am 6'1" tall and weigh 185 pounds. I weighed about 225 pounds when I started rowing, so I have burned off about 40 pounds in 100 days. I feel GREAT, and I really love rowing, and am totally addicted. My wife also has become addicted to the machine and rows daily (she is 68 years old). We are both rowing for health reasons. Getting old isn't easy, and we are defending against the aging process.

When I started rowing I found Dark Horse Rowing (Shane Farmer) on You Tube (https://www.darkhorserowing.com). I really wanted to learn proper form so I didn't develop any bad habits. His "row along" videos are perfect for me. I haven't joined his "Crew" yet' but I will. My machine doesn't have stroke rate on the monitor, so I can just follow him on his Concept 2. I would enthusiastically recommend Shane Farmer for any beginners that want to learn proper form and do it without injury. He is an outstanding coach. For 100 days I have used a 28 minute 20 spm beginner video of his since I started. I use a Polar heart rate monitor and Polar Flow app on my phone. It's great to see the data from my workouts, and my day-to-day improvement as well.

I recently decided to find out what my split time was. Since my monitor doesn't do all of the math involved, I learned from Shane Farmer's 5K, 22SPM, 20 minutes workout, that (according to his Concept 2 monitor), each stroke is 11.36 meters. (5000 meters /22 spm /20 minutes). So from that information I decided to row 500 meters, which turns out to be 44 strokes. I rowed that on my Sunny machine and stopped at 44 strokes. My split time was 1:49. I have no idea where that 1:49 split time would put me in relation to other rowers my age, but I thought it felt pretty good. I also backed into a calculation from my split time results to see what my stroke rate was, and it was just slightly above 22 spm. My next goal is to row Shane's 20-minute 5K at under 20 minutes, to see if I can hold the pace I used during the split. I know that i can do it.

Please don't hesitate to correct me in the way I backed into my split time, or anything else that I post, but I am pretty sure I did it correctly. I am here to learn from you all, and don't hesitate to correct me if I went off the rails somewhere.

Once I get comfortable posting on this forum, I can probably get better at posing in the right place.

Thanks for your feedback.

[JaapvanE]

I bought a Sunny Fitness machine on Amazon. I like it a lot for my needs, except for the monitor, which lacks a lot of the C2 functionality. I did modify my machine a little to put C2 straps onto the foot plates. It works a lot better for me than the velcro straps.

I am a male, 78 years old, with no prior rowing or other athletic experience. I am 6'1" tall and weigh 185 pounds. I weighed about 225 pounds when I started rowing, so I have burned off about 40 pounds in 100 days. I feel GREAT, and I really love rowing, and am totally addicted. My wife also has become addicted to the machine and rows daily (she is 68 years old). We are both rowing for health reasons. Getting old isn't easy, and we are defending against the aging process.

First of all, may I applaud you for picking up a new healthy habit! I wish more people did that to be honest. Great to see you share your passion with your wife. I haven't been able to trigger my wife's interest in the machine. If you have any tips, they are welcome

I'm not familiar with the specific machine, but most of us here realize that C2 isn't the cheapest brand, so people buy less expensive equipment. I guess most of us started this way: starting something new and pay a $1100 for a new machine is quite a risk.

I am one of the developers of OpenRowingMonitor (see https://github.com/laberning/openrowingmonitor), which does the exact same calculations as the PM5, but on a Raspberry Pi. This is a DIY solution requiring some basic experience in electronics and software to get working, so that might not be your cup of tea.

When I started rowing I found Dark Horse Rowing (Shane Farmer) on You Tube (https://www.darkhorserowing.com). I really wanted to learn proper form so I didn't develop any bad habits. His "row along" videos are perfect for me. I haven't joined his "Crew" yet' but I will. My machine doesn't have stroke rate on the monitor, so I can just follow him on his Concept 2. I would enthusiastically recommend Shane Farmer for any beginners that want to learn proper form and do it without injury. He is an outstanding coach. For 100 days I have used a 28 minute 20 spm beginner video of his since I started. I use a Polar heart rate monitor and Polar Flow app on my phone. It's great to see the data from my workouts, and my day-to-day improvement as well.

Having fun on the machine is the only thing that counts as it helps you maintain a healthy habit.

I recently decided to find out what my split time was. Since my monitor doesn't do all of the math involved, I learned from Shane Farmer's 5K, 22SPM, 20 minutes workout, that (according to his Concept 2 monitor), each stroke is 11.36 meters. (5000 meters /22 spm /20 minutes). So from that information I decided to row 500 meters, which turns out to be 44 strokes. I rowed that on my Sunny machine and stopped at 44 strokes. My split time was 1:49. I have no idea where that 1:49 split time would put me in relation to other rowers my age, but I thought it felt pretty good. I also backed into a calculation from my split time results to see what my stroke rate was, and it was just slightly above 22 spm. My next goal is to row Shane's 20-minute 5K at under 20 minutes, to see if I can hold the pace I used during the split. I know that i can do it.

For a 78 year old, that split would put you in World Record regions if I'm not mistaken (Concept2 maintains world records for every age bracket). A key difference between an experienced and a novice rower is how much power goes into a single stroke. So, on a C2, I can row 22 SPM with a 1:50/500m pace or a much more relaxed 2:30/500m. Both serve their purpose.

For me, a 95kg, 1.83meter, 51 year old, I'm still struggling to get from a Distance per Stroke of 10 meters to 10.5 to 11.0 meters. I can do that for several 500 meter blocks, but it wears me out quite quickly. But Shane is tall and strong, and has been trained well: these guys don't waste energy. In all honesty, I tried to replicate his pace on my C2, and I blew up, while he was still talking during the row.

Comparing across machines is difficult as most machines aren't callibrated (with the notable exceptions of C2, RP3 and BioRower). At OpenRowingMonitor we frequently help with that, but it is a challenging process. But keeping up with Shane and seeing your condition improve is an achievement in itself.

[Joebasscat]

Welcome to the forum. I think it’s great that you and your wife have taken up rowing as a way to “defend against the aging process” Congrats on your weight loss as well. Nothing but positives there. Well done!

As for comparing split times from your machine versus those performing on other machines, (In this instance the C2) it can’t be done. I started on a Water Rower for about a year and then made the switch to a C2. Big difference. Much slower times on the C2. Which is not unique to my experience, just how it is. Making the switch was absolutely a great move for many reasons.

By all means, keep at what you enjoy. Both of you are doing great!

[Tsnor]

I weighed about 225 pounds when I started rowing, so I have burned off about 40 pounds in 100 days. I feel GREAT...

Welcome and wow. That is a huge weight loss. Nice. Next doctor visit please explain it to your doctor otherwise they will freak out concerned there is an underlying medical problem causing you to lose this much this fast. If you plan to lose more consider talking to your doctor about the rate of weight loss you should target. 1 lb/week is good. 6"1 185 is a good weight. As a rower you will have more muscle mass than most people your age.

When I started rowing I found Dark Horse Rowing (Shane Farmer) on You Tube (https://www.darkhorserowing.com). I really wanted to learn proper form so I didn't develop any bad habits.

Excellent. You and your wife picked an excellent source of info. Good technique also keeps your back etc safer.

I use a Polar heart rate monitor and Polar Flow app on my phone. It's great to see the data from my workouts, and my day-to-day improvement as well.

Nice, many of us do that exactly that, mostly for motivation.

I recently decided to find out what my split time was. Since my monitor doesn't do all of the math involved, I learned from Shane Farmer's 5K, 22SPM, 20 minutes workout, that (according to his Concept 2 monitor), each stroke is 11.36 meters. (5000 meters /22 spm /20 minutes). So from that information I decided to row 500 meters, which turns out to be 44 strokes. I rowed that on my Sunny machine and stopped at 44 strokes. My split time was 1:49.

Your split on your machine is not comparable to others using C2 machines, but is perfect for you to use. You can track and improve your splits over time. If you post splits here suggest you show them as adjusted. C2 splits by age are here: https://log.concept2.com/rankings/2023/ ... s=verified but they are not comparable to yours.

[Jhweigel]

Thanks for the feedback

The only difference between my Sunny Health machine and the C2 that might have influenced my split time isthe "drag factor". I rowed the split time on my machine set at "4". It uses magnets to induce drag on the flywheel, and my machine has settings from 1 to 10. I don't know how this compares to the Concept 2, set between 3 and 4.

I think what I really need to do is to go to the gym and get on one of their C2 machines, and row the same split to see what the difference is (if any). It's not easy to find other rowers locally that are rowing at 78 years old. My doctor says I am a "complicated
patient" (I think he means that I am not following the age curve).

If my times are fairly good on the C2 (for a beginner) I am thinking I might like to compete (jn my age class) locally to see where that goes.

Rowing is something that I will do every day, as long as I am able. My mantra is "Never Give Up".

[jamesg]

I bought a Sunny Fitness machine on Amazon. I like it a lot for my needs, except for the monitor, which lacks a lot of the C2 functionality.

No worry, oarsmen have no information at all when rowing, they only see the water going past; and maybe guess how far astern the puddles go.

Similar in most other power sports too, so the control method is: follow our own reactions, ie heart rate. This is the system most use here too, despite having a full suite of physical information on the Concept2 monitor.

To train, warm up slowish until heart rate 100-110, then keep it below say 120 - 130 for 10-20 minutes. More or less as when taking a fastish walk. 3 to 5 days a week.

Try to pull a long stroke, hard, as oarsmen tend to do, at 18-22 strokes a minute, using the legs. This will be enough and will also help you maintain strength and flexibility.

Drag factor is best set to let you pull a full length stroke in about 0.7 seconds, at your strength level, using your legs. A long quick stroke lets you produce a reasonably high power and work level: Power is Speed x Force. A basic requisite of rowing is to keep the balance between the two factors at a safe level, avoiding very high forces: rowing is not weight lifting.

Rowing on water and on C2 machines gives results that are heavily dependent on technique. The C2 site shows how it's done, in detail: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

[JaapvanE]

The only difference between my Sunny Health machine and the C2 that might have influenced my split time isthe "drag factor". I rowed the split time on my machine set at "4". It uses magnets to induce drag on the flywheel, and my machine has settings from 1 to 10. I don't know how this compares to the Concept 2, set between 3 and 4.

It is a bit more complicated than that. A magnetic drag is a constant force: it will always be the same regardless how hard you pull. On an air based machine like the C2, the harder you pull, the harder the machine will resist. That makes machines difficult to compare.

And a lot of difference is made by pulling harder while keeping the same stroke rate: unlike bikes, there is such a thing as a strong stroke (that is what coxswains typically ask for when they call for a leg drive). I've rowed next to future olympians, and the pace they pull in a relaxed 20SPM on a medium dragfactor while chatting away is something I still dream of.

I think what I really need to do is to go to the gym and get on one of their C2 machines, and row the same split to see what the difference is (if any).

Great idea. It will tell you where you are. I did that when I still had my NordicTrack: I simply went to a gym and rowed a couple of minutes on it every month or so. Just to satisfy my curiosity. I usually walked in and kindly asked if I could try their rowing machine for a couple of minutes. As these machines are neglected a lot, most gyms I encountered don't mind. I usually made up by buying some drinks in the bar afterwards.

But, take it easy on the machine and feel where your speed is. Especially a first row n a new distance or a new machine always requires some getting used to. And don't expect to pull 1:49/500m. When I look at the world records for your age group (see https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... rm#results) it is dominated by young guys (i.e. 70 year olds).

It's not easy to find other rowers locally that are rowing at 78 years old. My doctor says I am a "complicated
patient" (I think he means that I am not following the age curve).

If my times are fairly good on the C2 (for a beginner) I am thinking I might like to compete (jn my age class) locally to see where that goes.

Rowing is something that I will do every day, as long as I am able. My mantra is "Never Give Up".

When "not following the age curve" means that you are an active person who refuses to sit behind a window watching the world go by, all the better. I hope they say the same when I hopefully reach your age.

And you are certainly not the only one. Just for reference: this is the current world record holder above 90: https://www.concept2.com/news/95-year-o ... ecord-9558

[mitchel674]

Sorry, but you simply cannot compare your split times with folks on the standard which is a concept2 machine. If you can find a gym with concept2 rowergs, I would encourage you to give it a go and see your actual split times.

[Rick]

Congrats @jhweigel , you and your wife are doing great. My wife and I are in our 60s and took up rowing about 2 years ago. It’s great for cardio, strength, and overall fitness work so you’re definitely on the right track!

I also rowed with Shane’s videos almost exclusively when I started, and give him a lot of credit for teaching form and how varied workouts can be. He’s a great motivator! As others have noted, the only thing you can really tell by Shane’s monitor is what Shane is doing. He is tall and an excellent rower. I can row stroke for stroke with him, full out, and he will finish his interval well ahead of me every time, i.e. he is putting more force into the machine and getting a longer stroke length than me even though we are going at seemingly the same pace. As you surmised, the only way to know what you’re actually doing is to get on a C2 machine and give it a go… then you’ll get an apples vs apples comparison.

I can’t say enough good about Concept 2 rowergs, or Concept 2 as a company. Should you decide to upgrade, it’s money well spent for we who aren’t quite ready to get “old” yet! Best wishes to you and the wife, and keep on rowing!

[Jhweigel]

Today I rechecked my 500M split time. It has improved from 1:49 to 1:47.

I have rowed the same "beginner" exercise daily for almost four months. It's 30+ minutes at SR 20, plus warm up and cool down (thanks to Shane Farmer), and I match him exactly, stroke for stroke, from start to finish on my Sunny Health machine set at "4". It is exhilirating!

I feel like my form is well developed now, and I need to step up to something a little more challenging.

My next challenge is Shane's 5K, at 22 SPM, all under 20 minutes. Based on my split times, it should be doable.

Because of my age (78) and heart disease (pacemaker), I am very careful to measure heart rate, and keep it below 142 bpm.

[mitchel674]

Today I rechecked my 500M split time. It has improved from 1:49 to 1:47.

I have rowed the same "beginner" exercise daily for almost four months. It's 30+ minutes at SR 20, plus warm up and cool down (thanks to Shane Farmer), and I match him exactly, stroke for stroke, from start to finish on my Sunny Health machine set at "4". It is exhilirating!

I feel like my form is well developed now, and I need to step up to something a little more challenging.

My next challenge is Shane's 5K, at 22 SPM, all under 20 minutes. Based on my split times, it should be doable.

Because of my age (78) and heart disease (pacemaker), I am very careful to measure heart rate, and keep it below 142 bpm.

I've been waiting for this update! Glad to hear you are making progress.

I hate to burst your bubble, but you should stop thinking about your pace calculation while rowing along with these videos. I can assure you that your pace is nowhere near 1:47 for that 500m piece.

Just get on your rower and enjoy the process. If you are really curious about your actual pace, get yourself over to a gym with a concept2 rower and give it a go.