Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[Dangerscouse]

Two very different sessions to report from the last week.

1. On Saturday, I attempted a long, steady row. I had in my head 30k or 32,195. It was a nightmare. I went out at 2.05/2.06 pace to be below 3hr FM pace. Cardio was not an issue. But early on my hamstrings started feeling bad. Soon joined by my arse and then new parts of my hands (even though I had taped my "usual" blister areas). It was the weirdest thing because at HM and even longer distances I have never had this type of hamstring and arse pain. Anyway, I ended up throwing in the towel at 24,602 meters. As you can see from the splits, this got progressively tougher. I've been scratching my head to figure out what went wrong: was it mental? I think not give the hamstring and arse issues were very real. But then why those physical issues? I could understand it if they came in after say 30k, but not at this distance. I'm not exaggerating when I say the hamstring issues actually caused me to have to stop as I was concerned about my recovery. Maybe this just goes to show what can go wrong on a bad day when attempting a FM. It was a real wake up call. Anyway, here is how it ended up:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal S/M
1:43:04.5 24,602m 2:05.6 176 906 21
41:42.1 10,000m 2:05.1 179 915 21
41:58.3 10,000m 2:05.9 175 903 22
19:24.1 4,602m 2:06.4 173 895 22

2. A very different and much better story today. I wanted to bounce back strong so I set out to do another HM PB. I took another minute + off my PB (1'1.7" to be precise!). I felt strong throughout and sustained flat pacing for 15k, a very slight but not too noticeable increase 16-20k and a legit speedy final k including 500m sprint). No seat/ arse issues, and very little hamstring pain. It was like I was an entirely different person today, but I'm happy for it. I guess we need to wonder for the FM whether I will be in Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde mode... Here is today's HM PB:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal S/M
1:21:35.3 21,097m 1:56.0 224 1071 24
19:25.2 5,000m 1:56.5 221 1061 24
19:25.6 5,000m 1:56.5 221 1060 24
19:25.5 5,000m 1:56.5 221 1060 24
19:21.9 5,000m 1:56.1 223 1067 24
3:57.1 1,097m 1:48.0 277 1254 28

Hhmm, that is strange re: hamstrings. Could it have been cramp? Were you hydrated enough? When I get new blisters it's because I'm notably sweating. Some days are just better, or worse than others, so you might not be able to figure it out.

Great HM PB, and it's always worth trying something like this after a failure. I did a previous HM PB three days after having to quit at about 85k into a 100k as I got exercise induced asthma (gym air con was too cold). Admittedly this was what wrecked my chances of a better 100k PB, but that's another story

[GlennUk]

Rob, you got this. I got a sub-3 marathon with a similar half marathon. You don't necessarily need to do longer pieces at a marathon pace - I did all of my long rows in the UT2 zone including multiple 30-35k sessions at ballpark 2:10 pace, and then speed-work a couple of times a week that was much faster. You need to be okay with long, and okay with pain cave, but it may be easier to recover if you don't put the two together that frequently.

Agree this, my training plan for FM has longest rows at 80-90mins, the same author for 100k plan has rows up to 210mins, far short of the duriaots expected when undertaking the actual events.

[GlennUk]

Do people hit the wall in doing a FM like in running so you have to carbo load well ahead of attempting one? I pretty much juat had normal breakfast then did the 32km.

In my FM (3hrs 11mins, Im MHW62) i regularly exceed 90%Hr max in the first 2.5hrs, with the result that i had to slow down signfciantly for the last 40mins or so (reduced to 85% HRMax and a much slower pace), not entirely sure how one defines bonking, but it was either slow down if fall off

[GlennUk]

Thanks for the advice! Maybe I'll go buy some energy gels amd test how my body reacts the next time i try anything more than 30km. Glutes are a little sore today but probably back to normal tomorrow. I can't imagine how you guys can maintain a pace faster than my 2k pace for these long rows!

FWIW, my advice would be if youre going to try some nutrition during erging then it would be wise to use it consistently during training unless its 'normal food'.

For example i drink orange squash/juice with added sugar and salt every time i drink when im training, its what i drink when undertake a FM so to me it makes sense to get used to it.

I doubt ill eat during an FM, although never say never, but my preferred calories would come from bananas, and my trusty 'sports drink'

[iain]

Do people hit the wall in doing a FM like in running so you have to carbo load well ahead of attempting one? I pretty much juat had normal breakfast then did the 32km.

In my FM (3hrs 11mins, Im MHW62) i regularly exceed 90%Hr max in the first 2.5hrs, with the result that i had to slow down signfciantly for the last 40mins or so (reduced to 85% HRMax and a much slower pace), not entirely sure how one defines bonking, but it was either slow down if fall off

Sounds like you just set off too fast.

When I "bonked" (ie usable sugars dropped below requirement), my HR actually dropped for the same slow pace (strange as fat actually requires more oxygen for the same energy), I just felt incredibly weak and nauseous and my body lowered the power per stroke despite my best efforts to maintain a strong stroke. Difficult to evaluate what was possible as I lost motivation and stopped 3 times in the remaining 8k. I have heard of people bonking but managing to finish without slowing up too much through sheer willpower. As I was doing a training row for a longer session I did not have sufficient incentive to push to the max.

[GlennUk]

Sounds like you just set off too fast.

if you define 2.5 hrs as a 'start', id agree

When I "bonked" (ie usable sugars dropped below requirement), my HR actually dropped for the same slow pace (strange as fat actually requires more oxygen for the same energy), I just felt incredibly weak and nauseous and my body lowered the power per stroke despite my best efforts to maintain a strong stroke. Difficult to evaluate what was possible as I lost motivation and stopped 3 times in the remaining 8k. I have heard of people bonking but managing to finish without slowing up too much through sheer willpower. As I was doing a training row for a longer session I did not have sufficient incentive to push to the max.

I cannot be sure my blood sugar dropped, all i can tell you it was 'quite tough' keeping going for the last 40mins, even at a reduced pace. Stopping is not necessarily the same as 'giving up'. If you're training, there becomes a point where one has to decide what will serve you better in the medium to longer term.

If you ran out of energy, it could simply because you are trying to do something your body has not adapted well enough to allow you to complet in the fashion you hope for.

Nothing wrong with that.

[aegis]

Thank you all for the responses. Most of my work on the erg is ss of 60min, if i have time then 75min and occasionally the hm. I like to stop for a sip of water from time to time just to wet the mouth. For my first 32km attempt, i didn't attempt to eat anything but just kept to drinking some water.
I'll start experimenting with how to fuel the next time i attempt something more than 30km.

One thing I did notice is how the mind starts playing tricks on you when you get tired, small discomforts start appearing when the cause of the discomfort (in my case a zip on my tights when I'm erging outdoors, however I wasn't even wearing it!) is not even present.

[GlennUk]

One thing I did notice is how the mind starts playing tricks on you when you get tired, small discomforts start appearing when the cause of the discomfort (in my case a zip on my tights when I'm erging outdoors, however I wasn't even wearing it!) is not even present.

This made me laugh, I havent had that but agree re small things become really annoying, you can learn to deal with some things if you prepare psychologically for them.

On a long erg, one of the things i worry about is mechanical failure. I have a tool box handy and spares as i treat the event as if i were on a bike on the road, so would repair and carry on if possible. It is one thing i then dont have to worry about, i make for more fluid/ drink than i need and have them all ready, etc, etc.

I do everyhitng i can to deal with potential issues so i don't have to worry about them, unfortunately if i get a PITA attack, eventually i cannot ignore it IME.

[RWAGR]

@stu @ iain- thanks. No idea re the hammies... just have to hope it doesn't happen again. Have one final longer row next week where I will try 30k and see how it goes. Rest of this week is easier 60 min/ 20k stuff.

[Tsnor]

...
I'll start experimenting with how to fuel the next time i attempt something more than 30km.

Good starting point for your experiments: https://youtu.be/2InF6nuTXzk Gives practical POV on before race, race food and after race recovery.

...
One thing I did notice is how the mind starts playing tricks on you ..

So true. Both for stopping early and for the sessions where everything feels so good you want to blow away your carefully planned time/pace/distance goals because going hard couldn't possibly impact tomorrows volleyball matches...

[Dangerscouse]

@stu @ iain- thanks. No idea re the hammies... just have to hope it doesn't happen again. Have one final longer row next week where I will try 30k and see how it goes. Rest of this week is easier 60 min/ 20k stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen again. I've had anomalies happen to me that never happened again, but you start worrying what caused it and what do I do to avoid it again.

Sometimes, it's just a one off issue, so if the 30k goes as hoped, make sure you properly embed that feeling into your head and forget about your hammies. Don't let it plant a seed that suddenly blossoms at the wrong moment.

[Dangerscouse]

One thing I did notice is how the mind starts playing tricks on you when you get tired, small discomforts start appearing when the cause of the discomfort (in my case a zip on my tights when I'm erging outdoors, however I wasn't even wearing it!) is not even present.

Mind games are massively magnified when you're tired. It's hard to explain how much until you experience them as you're always a bit cynical before you really feel it.

This is why I always bang on about getting used to the discomfort as much as you can without overdoing it. The ability to recall moments when it felt horrible, but you carried on is really important.

[iain]

The ability to recall moments when it felt horrible, but you carried on is really important.

So true! I have set points in FM when I remember feeling bad but managed to keep going that I tick off.

By the way, are there any nutters out there (preferably 50+ even better if Lwt as setting world records makes it an easier sell for sponsorship) who would be prepared to do a 1MM tandem with me. Preferably in UK, but would travel. I am only just coming back so thinking some time in 2024, this would give some focus to my training. Previously done a 24hr Tandem. In case you haven't considered it before, for it to be official the flywheel shouldn't ever stop, so over 3 days with only brief periods of sleep is required. Personally indifferent between trying to go through or having 2-3 hour sessions while the spell the other for sleep.

[Dangerscouse]

By the way, are there any nutters out there (preferably 50+ even better if Lwt as setting world records makes it an easier sell for sponsorship) who would be prepared to do a 1MM tandem with me. Preferably in UK, but would travel. I am only just coming back so thinking some time in 2024, this would give some focus to my training. Previously done a 24hr Tandem. In case you haven't considered it before, for it to be official the flywheel shouldn't ever stop, so over 3 days with only brief periods of sleep is required. Personally indifferent between trying to go through or having 2-3 hour sessions while the spell the other for sleep.

That sounds horrific, and I couldn't commit to something that would take that much training and lack of sleep, but best of luck if you do it

[iain]

That sounds horrific, and I couldn't commit to something that would take that much training and lack of sleep, but best of luck if you do it

Each to there own, it worries me less than the prospect of an all out 2k! Pain creeping up on me and sleep deprivation I can cope with more than the rapid deterioration in races for me at least although I appreciate that it will take a few weeks to recover.